Suppressors CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

[ROLEXrifleman]

Let me start by confessing my Class III ignorance so please don't tare me apart on this.

My quesion is in regards to a trust and an actualy signiture by a CLEO on either a form 1 or 4.

Up ntill know I have been under the impression that a trust is used generaly when a CLEO refuses to sign off on a form. With this as my understanding, what is the actual benifit to going in either diection?

What are the main diffrences between the two from a legal standpoint and which is the best for me?

TIA,
RR

 

[bohem]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

With an LLC or a trust you only have to pay the taxes once.

My dad owns a company that has several Form 1's on file. Form 1 suppressors are only allowed to be owned or posessed by a single entity. In this case, it's the business.

If/when my father passes away (hopefully not for a very long time) they have not actually changed hands, just the company and all of it's assets come to me, and those Form 1 cans are still legally in my possession.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Their is a good website www.GunTrustLawyer.com that is very informative and the questions posed are responded to very quickly.

 

[poison123]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Form 4 seems much easier!

 

[cpermd]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

The trust goes through 2-6 weeks quicker since there is no background check or fingerprint check.

CP

 

[jasonk]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Form 4 seems much easier!</div></div>

It's a Form 4 no matter trust or CLEO sign off when buying a suppressor.

Form 1 is for making your own suppressors.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Am I reading things correctly? Legaly if I do SBR's on a form 4 as an individual then LEGALY I am the only one allowd to use that SBR? My buddy cant use it even if I'm standing 2 feet away from him? Or better yet, if I do cans my wife and kids cant be on the line with me shooting a gun with one on it?

IF that's the case than legaly I would have to set up a trust with all our names on it in order for us to all LEGALY enjoy the class III goodness???

WTF

Now I need a law degree to be class III compliant?

 

[jasonk]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

You need to be present....no loaning SBRs or cans to buddies.

I "think" with a trust you can name your family and buddies as Trustees and they can all use them without you there....but that is something you should confirm with an atty.

 

[ScottACousino]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With an LLC or a trust you only have to pay the taxes once.

My dad owns a company that has several Form 1's on file. Form 1 suppressors are only allowed to be owned or posessed by a single entity. In this case, it's the business.

If/when my father passes away (hopefully not for a very long time) they have not actually changed hands, just the company and all of it's assets come to me, and those Form 1 cans are still legally in my possession.

</div></div>

If they were privately held (individual sign-off) and the "owner" passes away and has a will, the named heir or heirs would receive them tax free via Form 5.

 

[ScottACousino]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROLEXrifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I reading things correctly? Legaly if I do SBR's on a form 4 as an individual then LEGALY I am the only one allowd to use that SBR? My buddy cant use it even if I'm standing 2 feet away from him? Or better yet, if I do cans my wife and kids cant be on the line with me shooting a gun with one on it?

IF that's the case than legaly I would have to set up a trust with all our names on it in order for us to all LEGALY enjoy the class III goodness???

WTF

Now I need a law degree to be class III compliant? </div></div>

You need to talk to an attorney, I'm not sure how many trustee's you can have, I know with an LLC you can have as many members as you like, and as long as your LLC states all members can possess you are good to go.

As far as others shooting them in your presence you are good to go, the law is about the change in transfer, if it was the case of holding or shooting anothers Title II items everytime someone who picked up a MG or Can in a gun store would be up shit creek.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott A Cousino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With an LLC or a trust you only have to pay the taxes once.

My dad owns a company that has several Form 1's on file. Form 1 suppressors are only allowed to be owned or posessed by a single entity. In this case, it's the business.

If/when my father passes away (hopefully not for a very long time) they have not actually changed hands, just the company and all of it's assets come to me, and those Form 1 cans are still legally in my possession.

</div></div>

If they were privately held (individual sign-off) and the "owner" passes away and has a will, the named heir or heirs would receive them tax free via Form 5. </div></div>

As an individual it still has to go through probate, with a Trust it does not.

 

[ScottACousino]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott A Cousino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With an LLC or a trust you only have to pay the taxes once.

My dad owns a company that has several Form 1's on file. Form 1 suppressors are only allowed to be owned or posessed by a single entity. In this case, it's the business.

If/when my father passes away (hopefully not for a very long time) they have not actually changed hands, just the company and all of it's assets come to me, and those Form 1 cans are still legally in my possession.

</div></div>

If they were privately held (individual sign-off) and the "owner" passes away and has a will, the named heir or heirs would receive them tax free via Form 5. </div></div>

As an individual it still has to go through probate, with a Trust it does not. </div></div>

He said the tax only has to be paid once via trust/LLC, in my mind implying that they would have to be paid if the items were held otherwise, I was pointing out that they would transfer tax free to heirs even if held individually.

 

[assaultinc]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

If your CLEO will sign thats what I do.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott A Cousino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scott A Cousino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With an LLC or a trust you only have to pay the taxes once.

My dad owns a company that has several Form 1's on file. Form 1 suppressors are only allowed to be owned or posessed by a single entity. In this case, it's the business.

If/when my father passes away (hopefully not for a very long time) they have not actually changed hands, just the company and all of it's assets come to me, and those Form 1 cans are still legally in my possession.

</div></div>

If they were privately held (individual sign-off) and the "owner" passes away and has a will, the named heir or heirs would receive them tax free via Form 5. </div></div>

As an individual it still has to go through probate, with a Trust it does not. </div></div>

He said the tax only has to be paid once via trust/LLC, in my mind implying that they would have to be paid if the items were held otherwise, I was pointing out that they would transfer tax free to heirs even if held individually. </div></div>

The stamp tax on a Trust is only paid once per item, if the Trustee dies, the beneficiary does not have to pay the stamp tax again, since it is remaining within the entity of the Trust. The individual route can be passed to heir without stamp tax due to IRS regulations. With a Trust all NFA items will pass to beneficiary without added taxes. The other benefit of a trust is that pre-conditions can be set prior to being turned over to beneficiaries. Example: say who name your son as beneficiary, you can set pre-conditions that he cannot receive until his 25th birthday. The NFA item would then go to a Trustee until then. Trust IMHO are the best way to secure the property for the long term.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Do you like my tin foil hat?


One thing to consider in the prediction of future is that the vetting process is not the same for CLEO sign off and trust acquisitions. If the winds shifted, conceptually they could deny the parties to the trust and force it back through CLEO sign off - your CLEO could change and may or may not be willing to sign.

Dig the shine off my forehead........


If you go CLEO you need to be the only one with access to the storage facilities of the NFA items as well.

ps - if you haven't already - down load the ATF Handbook

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

I think if the conceptual winds shifted, the result would be forfeiture of NFA items as a whole by all parties, whether held individually, in a Trust, Corporation, or LLC. There is always the possibility that your state could restrict the sale or ownership, the federal government could do the same.

The endeavor into NFA items should not be taken lightly, as the legal ramifications can be dire. If you choose to go the way of a Trust, I strongly urge the use of a lawyer. Either way you should definitely read the GCA and NFA rules and regulations. As MO_ZAM_BEEK stated in the previous post the NFA Handbook is a good place to start.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Some times the shine off my forehead is more than a glint....


May not be the Feds that weigh in on NFA - may be an individual state. Those that did it the iron clad way get grandfathered, those that initially went the trust route go back through to get CLEO signature. It'd be a tough climate to predict, looks worse for those in a metro area.


Good luck

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

From a legal standpoint, that scenario is highly unlikely, not saying it couldn't happen, but very unlikely. The only way I could see that happening is at the city or county level, and the restriction on possession would be wide spread.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Wonder how it went in CA or other states where it has happened?


One thing is for sure.... the past isn't necessarily a predictor of the future.


Good luck

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Dude you are quick on the keys. I need a tin foil hat. You are absolutely right, unfortunately that is the hazzard of NFA items, all it takes is a law to change, and BANG........ZOOM.........TO THE MOON.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

I am launching a designer foil line this spring.....

 

[Chiller]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

Tag

 

[Alpha_Tango]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

RR - the "transfers" you described in your post have been viewed/prosecuted as unlawful/illegal: see http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/29561634.html

granted, this (and another similar case) arose in my @ss backward home state, but it just goes to show you...

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: CLEO signiture Vs. Trust