Night Vision Clip On Durability?

[MaxMWiley]

I'm wanting to upgrade the capability of my DMR rifle to include night use.
While shopping for my WP 3+ PVS14 (amazing BTW), I was told by a well known and respected night vision seller that "you don't put NODS on your rifle." I'm not going to say who because it's not my intention to start a mud slinging contest.
As explained, night vision devices have a very limited lifespan when exposed to recoil. Fine for specops guys that have people rebuilding them for every mission, maybe not so good for the average Joe like me who is not going to be able to afford a spare and has no resupply.
In my mind, if having a rifle in the squad that can reach out to 800+ yards is desirable, and the squad is night capable, then having the DMR be night capable is equally as desirable. However, my equipment budget is not large and $4k-$5k for, say, a used PVS-27 is going to double the cost of the rifle. If it's not going to be reasonably reliable then that's something I want to know going in so I can make informed decisions.

 

[wigwamitus]

It is true, in general, use a NOD on your head, use a clipon or a weapons sight on your weapon. In an "emergency" you can cross over. But plan to avoid "emergencies" as much as possible.

 

[Reload10]

Aren't pvs30's and 27's 50 bmg rated? I don't think you'll hurt a clip on. A 14 on a 308 behind an eotech is a different story.

 

[wigwamitus]

To "night-i-tize" your rifle, add a laser to your rifle and 14 on your head.

 

[TheHorta]

Dedicated NV clipons and scopes are very durable and reliable. They’ll last many thousands of rounds. General purposes NODs, like PVS-14’s, intended primarily to run on a helmet are not designed for weapons, so it’s best to use them for their intended purpose.

If you want to have any chance of hitting things at night at the distances you’re tossing out (e.g. “800+ yards”) your budget is unrealistic, unless you luck into a spectacular deal or the Night Vision Fairy puts something under your pillow while you sleep. Both are around similar probabilities.

A decent head-mounted Photonis PVS-14 will set you back $3K — and that’s entry-level. Add another $1K for helmet and accoutrements, then another $1-2K for laser/illuminator, and you may be able to reach out to 200-300 yards if you’re a trained sniper — or 100-yards for most of we mere mortals.

In other words… go be poor somewhere else.

 

[Lowdown3]

While shopping for my WP 3+ PVS14 (amazing BTW), I was told by a well known and respected night vision seller that "you don't put NODS on your rifle."

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that might have been me your quoting , but that's not exactly what was said/meant. I say this because you used the term WP3 which is what we call our White Phosphor 3rd Gen PVS14s. Thanks again for your order BTW.

What I likely said was "no one mounts a 14 to a weapon any more" and that's pretty much true and has been borne out in what others have commented on here.

The idea being that once a 14 is "married" to a weapon, it becomes a PITA to have the rifle up in your shoulder pocket to get a "look" around. Helmet mounting is the much better way to go, and then shoot via an IR laser or passive aiming or (best answer) have the ability to do both.

Clip on NV is a completely different animal, a cursory look can easily show that something like a PVS30 (big honking mamma jamma) or even a smaller unit like a UNS SR is a lot "beefier" (technical term lol) than a PVS14. Clip ons are designed for recoil, PVS14s not so much so. I love my PVS30s, but I wouldn't want to take one on a 5 mile patrol or not have helmet mounted NV.

Hopefully that clarifies everything a bit, if it wasn't me, my apologies but that's likely what someone meant with the context being you were buying a PVS14 at the time.

 

[cantankerous]

Practice navigating with your PVS-14 while you save your pennies for a thermal clip on.

 

[WhereNow&How]

What I likely said was "no one mounts a 14 to a weapon any more" and that's pretty much true and has been borne out in what others have commented on here.

Exactly.

In an emergency you can get by if that's all you got. But a PVS 14 mounted to a rifle behind a day optic with night vision settings will eventually lead to a serious issue.

Either it completely fails and your tube ends up looking like a dropped egg from recoil or (least catastrophic) you will burn a permanent blem in it from even a night vision settings optic that stays in one place too long on the intensifier tube. It aint a matter of if, it is a matter of when.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Mounting a 14 to a carbine behind an Eotech, aimpoint or similar can lead to recoil damage sooner or later. That’s a lot of vibrational recoil and not much housing to absorb it so the tube sees nearly all of it. Also something else that I’ve seen a lot of that a most guys do not mention is, that little illuminated reticle in said optic your using can and will be permanently burnt into the 14 if left on too long or set a bit too bright.

Clip ons are the bee’s knee’s. They do the job and they do it correctly.

Jay

 

[MaxMWiley]

To "night-i-tize" your rifle, add a laser to your rifle and 14 on your head.

Perfectly fine for a carbine. Useful even on a 308 DMR. But I'm specifically looking to be able to fulfill DMR capability to midrange even at night, which this will not do. Thanks though.

 

[MaxMWiley]

Mounting a 14 to a carbine behind an Eotech, aimpoint or similar can lead to recoil damage sooner or later. That’s a lot of vibrational recoil and not much housing to absorb it so the tube sees nearly all of it. Also something else that I’ve seen a lot of that a most guys do not mention is, that little illuminated reticle in said optic your using can and will be permanently burnt into the 14 if left on too long or set a bit too bright.

Clip ons are the bee’s knee’s. They do the job and they do it correctly.

Jay

This and other information about the differences between monocles and clipons is exactly what I was looking for. From reading all the specs, I had suspected the clip on sights are recoil compensated and the monocles are not... which would mean the advice I was given was meant for my PVS14 specifically and monocles in general but doesn't really apply to purpose built clipons. Thank you.

 

[MaxMWiley]

Dedicated NV clipons and scopes are very durable and reliable. They’ll last many thousands of rounds. General purposes NODs, like PVS-14’s, intended primarily to run on a helmet are not designed for weapons, so it’s best to use them for their intended purpose.

If you want to have any chance of hitting things at night at the distances you’re tossing out (e.g. “800+ yards”) your budget is unrealistic, unless you luck into a spectacular deal or the Night Vision Fairy puts something under your pillow while you sleep. Both are around similar probabilities.

A decent head-mounted Photonis PVS-14 will set you back $3K — and that’s entry-level. Add another $1K for helmet and accoutrements, then another $1-2K for laser/illuminator, and you may be able to reach out to 200-300 yards if you’re a trained sniper — or 100-yards for most of we mere mortals.

In other words… go be poor somewhere else.

Yup, I can see that $5k for 800 yards is completely unrealistic at current prices, especially if I'm wanting identification capability at that distance and not just recognition. I may go ahead and jump to the $10k-$13k budget range to get that capability, after I weigh the available options like UNS-SR, used/refurbed PVS22 (if I can find one), CNVD and CNVD-LR, PVS30. I was certainly not willing to even consider spending that kind of money until I had a better idea on clipon durability.

 

[MaxMWiley]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that might have been me your quoting , but that's not exactly what was said/meant. I say this because you used the term WP3 which is what we call our White Phosphor 3rd Gen PVS14s. Thanks again for your order BTW.

What I likely said was "no one mounts a 14 to a weapon any more" and that's pretty much true and has been borne out in what others have commented on here.

The idea being that once a 14 is "married" to a weapon, it becomes a PITA to have the rifle up in your shoulder pocket to get a "look" around. Helmet mounting is the much better way to go, and then shoot via an IR laser or passive aiming or (best answer) have the ability to do both.

Clip on NV is a completely different animal, a cursory look can easily show that something like a PVS30 (big honking mamma jamma) or even a smaller unit like a UNS SR is a lot "beefier" (technical term lol) than a PVS14. Clip ons are designed for recoil, PVS14s not so much so. I love my PVS30s, but I wouldn't want to take one on a 5 mile patrol or not have helmet mounted NV.

Hopefully that clarifies everything a bit, if it wasn't me, my apologies but that's likely what someone meant with the context being you were buying a PVS14 at the time.

It may indeed have been you. The full story is that my friend made those purchases, and came back with the adamant command that "night vision doesn't go on rifles." I'm sure that what was meant was exactly the information you just stated and was taken out of context. This didn't make sense to me based on the prevalence of clipon sights, which led me to make this thread.
I don't yet own a laser because I don't like the idea of using them. If even scrubs like me and Taliban in Afghanistan have usable night vision capability, lasers seem like a bad idea. Luckily, I'm left eye dominant and shoot right handed, and when I wear the PVS14 on my left eye and shoulder a rifle with a red dot or illuminated LPVO, the aiming point appears just fine in my combined vision at up to 4x, at least with the equipment I have.
Clipons are what delivers the capability I'm specifically looking for, and now I just have to decide how much it's going to hurt. I should actually be shopping in about 30 days and I'll be sure to check in with you.

 

[MaxMWiley]

Practice navigating with your PVS-14 while you save your pennies for a thermal clip on.

Thermal or combined technology clipon is likely out of my budget, but I'd be happy to hear about some suggestions to go look and make the comparison.
I'm not willing to put this purchase off much longer, all things considered.

 

[wigwamitus]

Long distance thermal clipons (non-Chinese) that can do 800yds on man sized target (8x on the day scope) that we can buy, mostly run in the range $12k ro $20k.

These include:

New pixels on target Voodoo-M
Used BAE UTC, UTC-x, UTC-xii
Used Trijicon UTC-xii
L3 LWTS-LR new or used

On the way
Theon LR and XLR new

rumors of some others

==
It also helps to have a rifle mounted range finder

 

[WhereNow&How]

or the Night Vision Fairy puts something under your pillow while you sleep.

That Night Vision Fairy can't never make it to my pillow because she is too busy over at your house.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I don't yet own a laser because I don't like the idea of using them. If even scrubs like me and Taliban in Afghanistan have usable night vision capability, lasers seem like a bad idea.

Well maybe not a bad idea. A bad idea is not having positive ID on something and pulling the trigger.

For night time social work, the laser and accompanying illuminator is about the only thing that will give you a positive ID at night time except a White Light. Good thermal can tell you a lot but sometimes you just have to throw IR on it for positive confirmation of who and what you are looking at.

And if you were not setting up for night time social work, why would you be worried about being seen.

 

[Huskydriver]

Long distance thermal clipons (non-Chinese) that can do 800yds on man sized target (8x on the day scope) that we can buy, mostly run in the range $12k ro $20k.

These include:

New pixels on target Voodoo-M
Used BAE UTC, UTC-x, UTC-xii
Used Trijicon UTC-xii
L3 LWTS-LR new or used

On the way
Theon LR and XLR new

rumors of some others

==
It also helps to have a rifle mounted range finder

No tigir?

 

[wigwamitus]

... No tigir? ...

Nope. For me the Tig tops out at 4.5x (when on 1x digital) on the day scope ... and my definition of "long distance thermal clipon" requires support for at least 8x on the day scope, behind the clipon. Preferrably 10x.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Wig does it seem like to you that the OLED Farbdisplay 873×500 Pixel is one of the limiting factors of the TigIR as far as being able to effectively go beyond 4.5x on the day scope.

 

[TheHorta]

I have zero problem going 6-10x on my TigIR, and I’m super-picky with magnification. I don’t like the UTC-X/Xii beyond 10x (which is what BAE and Trijicon say it’s good to).

Voodoo-S peaks at 6-8x max. 6x for UTM-X, etc.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I have zero problem going 6-10x on my TigIR, and I’m super-picky with magnification.

Yeah but here is the $64 question. Is that before or after some Shine ?

 

[wigwamitus]

I have zero problem going 6-10x on my TigIR, and I’m super-picky with magnification. I don’t like the UTC-X/Xii beyond 10x (which is what BAE and Trijicon say it’s good to).

Tig gets fuzzy after 4.5x for me.
UTC x/xii are good up to 16x for me.

And I'm not super picky with fuzzy.

 

[TheHorta]

My Tig 6M has a different “eyepiece” than the 6Z. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

 

[wigwamitus]

I've talked to several Tig owers, some have similar experience to mine, others similar to yours. There are a lot of variables. Like two of the one's with experience similar to yours live in Montana (but you don't).
To really find out, would need to send back to Germany and that hasn't happened yet.

 

[GreenMushroom]

It won't earn you any cool guy points but there's a lightly used yoterC in the fs section for 4k.

 

[TheHorta]

It won't earn you any cool guy points but there's a lightly used yoterC in the fs section for 4k.

And then his mom can kiss him in front of all the other 6th graders.

 

[cantankerous]

I swapped from a 3-18 IOR to a Revic PMR 428 behind my Tig and noticed that I was much more comfortable getting up to 10x or so on the day scope with the Revic whereas I topped out at 8x with the IOR. Humidity also made a big difference in how much magnification was useable.

I may fumigate Horta with the stench of the poors by saying this, but (in my admittedly limited) expirience I'd take even a yoter c over some of the older gen 3 I2 clip on sights.

That being said the best I2 I've played with is an old Simrad.

 

[wigwamitus]

Two UTC/x, Two SIMRADs ... this was a couple of years ago, I've downgraded the simrads to a 27 and a CO-x at this point

 

[cantankerous]

That picture is inspirational!

I just sold my Tig to pay for an xELR so I currently feel crippled without a thermal weapon sight.

 

[jstokes1]

Wig does it seem like to you that the OLED Farbdisplay 873×500 Pixel is one of the limiting factors of the TigIR as far as being able to effectively go beyond 4.5x on the day scope.

That pixel density is actually higher than UTC Xii (which is a 640x480 OLED display). The main limiting factor is the lack of manual focus on the objective housing and issue with parallex on the eye piece. What happens is, when you increase magnification and look further out than 200 yards....the image get real blurry REALLY quickly. With the UTC Xii/X, you can have a very fine focus that will persist at well over 10x optical on your day scope.

The TigIR to me (I've owned one then sold it after finding out the image issues at distance myself), is a great optic to use on fixed lower powered scopes within 200 yards (best was with a 3x G33 magnifier/EOTech combo)....but that's it. Taking it out further than that decreases your PID exponentially....even the Super Yoter C whooped it's azz at PID at distance.

To demonstrate, here's a photo of a house well over 1000 yards away. One image with was taken with the Tig and the other with the Super yoter C. You tell me which on looks better. Both photos used the G33 3x magnifier. Below there Is also a picture with the Tig in a red color pallet at close range using an EOTech with a G33 magnifier....but this time within 100 yards. Notice how much sharper the image is compared to the other photo at distance.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

My HISS would be perfect for this.

 

[GreenMushroom]

That pixel density is actually higher than UTC Xii (which is a 640x480 OLED display). The main limiting factor is the lack of manual focus on the objective housing and issue with parallex on the eye piece. What happens is, when you increase magnification and look further out than 200 yards....the image get real blurry REALLY quickly. With the UTC Xii/X, you can have a very fine focus that will persist at well over 10x optical on your day scope.

The TigIR to me (I've owned one then sold it after finding out the image issues at distance myself), is a great optic to use on fixed lower powered scopes within 200 yards (best was with a 3x G33 magnifier/EOTech combo)....but that's it. Taking it out further than that decreases your PID exponentially....even the Super Yoter C whooped it's azz at PID at distance.

To demonstrate, here's a photo of a house well over 1000 yards away. One image with was taken with the Tig and the other with the Super yoter C. You tell me which on looks better. Both photos used the G33 3x magnifier. Below there Is also a picture with the Tig in a red color pallet at close range using an EOTech with a G33 magnifier....but this time within 100 yards. Notice how much sharper the image is compared to the other photo at distance.

The yoter does punches way above it's price. Especially with used ones popping up it's a great starter device. Some like me will be satisfied and people going high dollar will be able to see what's what and sell it for close to what they paid.

To OP I don't know what your experience level is but 800 yards is a long shot at night not to mention id at that range. There's guys on here that can reliably make that pid and shot but I'm not one of them and you probably aren't either. A used yoter and g3 would come in around 6k if you shop around and is stupid easy to use. It'll get you to 4-500 depending on conditions. If you just want to check the intermediate range box like I did and get on with your life it's a tough combo to beat.

Note the smk drops in 556 and 308 out of a 16"

Eta drops pic stolen from someone on here but can't remember who

 

[bohica17]

Only issues Iv had was the rail mount arm breaking it was on a pvs26 or a 30 can’t remember we had both. In its defense it felt hard when I was attaching it and it was used more than the only spoon in a meth house.

Also tripod with a pvs-14 and a 3x magnifier is a great observation device at night probably better stuff out now but that was always a go to in the hide

 

[MaxMWiley]

The yoter does punches way above it's price. Especially with used ones popping up it's a great starter device. Some like me will be satisfied and people going high dollar will be able to see what's what and sell it for close to what they paid.

To OP I don't know what your experience level is but 800 yards is a long shot at night not to mention id at that range. There's guys on here that can reliably make that pid and shot but I'm not one of them and you probably aren't either. A used yoter and g3 would come in around 6k if you shop around and is stupid easy to use. It'll get you to 4-500 depending on conditions. If you just want to check the intermediate range box like I did and get on with your life it's a tough combo to beat.

Note the smk drops in 556 and 308 out of a 16"

View attachment 7848570

Eta drops pic stolen from someone on here but can't remember who

I'm using an AR10 with custom Shilen 18" barrel. My gun doesn't like 175 SMK like my tac bolt gun does. For the AR10 I'm using 168 SMK at 2600. Pretty sure drifts and drops are very similar to midrange.
I've looked hard at the Gen3 but I think I'm going to go with the new Trijicon SCO instead.
I'm reliably accurate out to 600 with my 308s even in challenging wind conditions. 800 depends a lot on how well I read the wind. I'm not a "sniper" but I will claim to be a marksman.
I'm not an SOF ninja and don't pretend to be one. If I need this capability it will be primarily in a defensive role, and my targets will be IDing themselves by their hostile actions. My sole concern is being able to target and hit at night without giving away my location with lasers and illuminators.
The Yoter looks interesting for the money, but I have no real idea what it's capabilities are compared to similarly priced night vision devices like the UNS-SR.
At least spotting capability at 800 under say 1/4 moon would be nice but I realize it's pushing the envelope. Ability to engage to 600 is important assuming target ID is already confirmed.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I suggested the g3 in the event you were starting from scratch. If you're already set up the best thing you could do is use a scope you're already very comfortable with to take that variable out of the equation.

You'll want something that goes down to 2 or 2.5 on the bottom end and you can get up to around 8x before things start getting fuzzy. From my understanding of the way these things work adjustable parallex shouldn't make a difference but in my experience it does and can get you another 1 or 2x depending on the scope.

If your in fuck everything in that general direction mode the yoter will do 600 easy.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I'm not an SOF ninja and don't pretend to be one. If I need this capability it will be primarily in a defensive role, and my targets will be IDing themselves by their hostile actions. My sole concern is being able to target and hit at night without giving away my location with lasers and illuminators.

Even dedicated NV Riflescopes or NV Clip Ons will struggle about 50% of the time at 600 yards when there is no moon and it is overcast if you are in a rural setting with no supplemental photons coming from the human world. Under that situation you would have to fire up an illuminator to take those longer shots if you really want to PID in a defensive situation.

Then thermal is not really that good at for sure PID the bad guy at longer distances either. For that matter, not even at shorter distances usually.

Yeah, it is a human walking around out there, but is it a man, woman, child. Hard to figure out good and bad at night a lot of the time and would increase significantly in a grid down situation. Throw in being tired with weary eyes and/or eye strain, foggy, rainy, humid conditions, your amped up sweat slung all over your occulars etc etc and PID can become difficult.

But I guess you could always play it safe in a really bad situation and just ground check the target. As the saying goes, let God sort it all out.

But here is another option. Take really good cover, (should already have that if in defensive position) throw STRONG IR on the target (with magnified NV optic) to get a positive ID and then you can choose to do, or not to do based on what you know for sure. If they are wearing NOD's, when you hit them with STRONG IR you are going to effectively blind them anyway while you make your decision. They will not be able to throw any rounds your way quickly unless they have overwatch buds a significant angled distance from them or they are running Thermal Weapon Sights themselves which is becoming more prevalent in certain regions in today's world.

Having STRONG IR can be a very useful fighting tool if properly used. Just like strong WHITE Light. Having all the tools in the tool box and knowing which one to use in a given situation will typically give you an advantage if properly utilized.

Unfortunately, there is no free lunch and one and done device in that game. They all come with pluses and minuses.

I understand exactly what you are getting at though, just throwing out some other things you might want to consider in setting up your toolbox.

The Yoter C should be able to do all you really need to do for a TWS. Appears to be pretty good performance for the money.

Some people say detect it with thermal, then shoot it with NV. I lean more towards, detect it with thermal, confirm PID with NV, then shoot it with Thermal or Laser. But each to his own. Different situations dictate different tools.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The Yoter looks interesting for the money, but I have no real idea what it's capabilities are compared to similarly priced night vision devices like the UNS-SR.
At least spotting capability at 800 under say 1/4 moon would be nice but I realize it's pushing the envelope. Ability to engage to 600 is important assuming target ID is already confirmed.

UNS-SR is a short range NV optic. With the small lens it has, you gonna have to use supplemental IR a lot of the time to get performance out of it. It would be pretty tough to get the UNS-SR to do 600 yards very well.

 

[MaxMWiley]

If anybody is still watching this thread that has experience with both, compare and contrast Super Yoder C with Trijicon SNIPE-IR.
I'm going to assume off the bat that the Trijicon is both more durable and more flexible, due to different mounting options.
What I'm wondering about is image quality and useful range. And wondering if it's worth 2x the price.

 

[Conqueror]

I am comfortable with way more than 4x on my Tig. Here's a shot at 20x:

Now I agree that its lack of manual focus hurts it beyond 300-500 yards depending on how picky one is, but I'd wager most users would feel comfortable with its image quality through a 10x day optic. At 600 yards it easily detects man-size targets but you'd have some trouble shooting one confidently.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Yup, I can see that $5k for 800 yards is completely unrealistic at current prices, especially if I'm wanting identification capability at that distance and not just recognition. I may go ahead and jump to the $10k-$13k budget range to get that capability, after I weigh the available options like UNS-SR, used/refurbed PVS22 (if I can find one), CNVD and CNVD-LR, PVS30. I was certainly not willing to even consider spending that kind of money until I had a better idea on clipon durability.

I have shot my 24LR our to 865 without any issue. It's also a lot lighter than a pvs30 and needs very little to no illumination unless completely dark, but illumination helps of course

 

[WhereNow&How]

If anybody is still watching this thread that has experience with both, compare and contrast Super Yoder C with Trijicon SNIPE-IR.
I'm going to assume off the bat that the Trijicon is both more durable and more flexible, due to different mounting options.
What I'm wondering about is image quality and useful range. And wondering if it's worth 2x the price.

The Yoter C samples 1 Pixel per 0.79 Square Inches at 100 yards with a 50 mm lens.
The Snipe-Ir samples 1 Pixel per 1.39 Square Inches at 100 yards with a 35 mm lens.

Bigger Germanium lens gathers more data. They are both 12 um units. Snipe is twice the price.

Yoter C will walk all over the Snipe at longer distances for image quality. I am a one is none and two is one type of guy.
If I had to choose between these units, I would buy 2 Yoter C's and call it a day.

 

[Conqueror]

Here's another Tig image that's a little more representative:

I've been taking 20x pics with my Hensoldt because I don't have a decent unmounted riflescope right now, but next time I unmount one from its host I will get some TTL pics on lower mag. But I don't find it to be excessively pixellated at this distance/mag combo. One fun accidental discovery is that the Hensoldt objective lens is so big it can see around the Tig, so light sources show up as visible light overlaid on the thermal image. You can see the reflection of a streetlight glinting in the car's right taillight.

 

[GreenMushroom]

The yoter will hang with far more expensive devices and would crush something like the snipe which seems to get very poor reviews. A lot of what you're paying for in something like a tig is durability. Don't get me wrong the yoter is solidly built but next to my nox/14/coti it has a commercial vrs military grade feel.

Another thing I'll throw out is to consider a dedicated thermal scope. If you've never used a clip-on they're kind of a pain on the go and are best used off support preferably prone. Even in front of a lpvo the controls are way out there and make the rifle front heavy. This is mitigated somewhat by super compact units like the tig but it's always an issue. Something like a yoterR will reach out pretty far and is much lighter and more compact.

Higher end scopes usually come with adm or larue mounts so you can switch it out with your day optic. The controls will be much closer and easier to operate with your control vrs support hand. With something like the yoterC used offhand I do my settings and dial the focus for medium short and leave it. I'll zoom the day optic but don't mess with the yoter unless I can rest it on something.

With any clip on weight/balance is going to be an issue. With lights lasers + the clip-on even a rifle that started out light weight becomes front heavy really fast.

For scale this is a 15" rail. On shorter rails you'll run out of 12 o'clock real-estate in a hurry.

This is at around 2.5x on the day optic. Wild ass guess is around 100yds. Those are elk vrs deer so a bit further than it looks. The image is very nice and my shaky cell phone pics don't do it justice.

All that being said in your shoes I'd probably do a dedicated scope. I kinda view a clip on as the last thing you get vrs the 1st unless it's multi functional like a skeet/voddo/rh25.

 

[deersniper]

My HISS would be perfect for this.

640?

 

[Conqueror]

I think DRT is the only guy here with a 640 HISS.