Night Vision clip-on Thermal?

[xdeano]

So we've been using the IR Hunters for a couple of years now.

The question, is there a reliable and thermal as a clip-on in-front of a day scope?

I hear some deal breakers on clip-on NV not holding a zero.

Looking for options.

Thanks,
Deano

 

[wigwamitus]

Sure, two options !!

01 - Trijicon Oasys UTC-xii, street price $20,000 availability: unobtainium
02 - Insight LWTS-LR, street price under $15k ish availability: Barely !!!

Other than that, keep waitin' might be something else shortly.

 

[xdeano]

shit!

Thanks wigwamitus!

 

[wigwamitus]

Now those are the "Real - Long DIstance Thermal clipons" ...

The LWTS (not LR) will get you up to 4x to 6x on the day scope, depending on who you ask and your tolerance for fuzzy, but those will be used with no warranty.

The sub $10k MSRP thermal clipons are NOT collimated. That means you have to bore sight them for each rifle/scope combo separately. Now if you do bore sight (adjust) them for a given rifle/scope combo, then you can remove and remount and be sub MOA POI shift ... but again only for that one rifle/scope combo.

That's contrasted with the UTC/x/xii and then LWTS-LR ... if you mount those within tolerance ... then you will be repeatable on all your rifles. Just like a real clipon, which they are.

Commercial clipons like the SNIPE or the Genesis A55 (see my shooting report reviews ... the SNIPE is back around Nov 2019 ... the Gen A55 is current times) ... work but they require boresighting to each rifle/scope.

Its similar to the way the SIMRAD PVS-9s work. Late 80s technology on those bad boys ... but they have a great (i2) image ... they do require boresighting to a particular rifle/scope combo. So this isn't unique to thermals, the PVS-9s are similar. But newer NV clipons, like PVS-22, 24, 26, 27, 30 ... all have optical wedge/risley prism rear ends and are collimated, so if you mount within tolerance, your POI shift will be minimal. Those NV clipons have no adjustments and none are needed. Same with the UTC/x/xii and LWTS-LR.

But the short version is ... if you are expecting collimation with your clipon ... then only the military clipons with MSRP $10k+ will get the job done ... on the thermal side ...
The UTC-x and xii can support up to 16x on the day scope before fuzzy kicks in. UTC/x/xii reviews start May 2017 and continue through recent times in night shooting.
The LWTS-LR can support up to 8x/10x on the day scope before fuzzy kicks in ... though there is some pixellation ... see review starting around Jan in my night shooting ...

 

[TheHorta]

Sure, two options !!

01 - Trijicon Oasys UTC-xii, street price $20,000 availability: unobtainium
02 - Insight LWTS-LR, street price under $15k ish availability: Barely !!!

Other than that, keep waitin' might be something else shortly.

I have at least a couple of each. I suggest you buy one of each from me to see which one you prefer. I'm betting once you go UTC-Xii you'll never go back. LWTS-LR is better if you may also use it as a standalone TWS. The UTC *requires* a magnified day optic (at least 3x mag, minimum). The LR can be used very effectively without an optic, and it has a whole suite of reticle choices for different weapons, including Stadia.

I'll make you a package deal -- 1x UTC and 1x LWTS-LR for the low, low price of $35K -- an absolute steal!

I'll toss in a brand new, boxed Raptar for $3500 -- 'cuz I'm a giver.

 

[TheHorta]

P.S. The CRATOS also makes an exceptional thermal clip-on, but it's generally for 300-yards and in. The UTC and LR can reach out MUCH farther. You can *detect* much farther than 300 yards with the CRATOS, but you won't feel comfortable letting rounds go much beyond 200 yards (which is fine for me, but it seems like all of the Hide are ELR masters hunting field mice @ 1200-meters).

 

[xdeano]

Thehorta, Nope just using it for work. you're a funny guy though.

Thanks wigwamitus. I think ive made up my mind a going with another stand alone thermal scope instead of a clip-on.

Xdeano

 

[Bowhntr4life]

I have owned a few armasight NV clip ons and have never had an issue.

 

[Boogeyman]

Hey Gentlemen,
Does anyone have a manual in pdf form they could send me for a UTC X?

 

[TheHorta]

UTC-X and Xii have same basic Menu and Controls. Anyone with an Xii can help. I’m on a plane, so… otherwise I would.

 

[Boogeyman]

UTC-X and Xii have same basic Menu and Controls. Anyone with an Xii can help. I’m on a plane, so… otherwise I would.

Appreciate it. Have a good flight

 

[RayDBonz]

Sure, two options !!

01 - Trijicon Oasys UTC-xii, street price $20,000 availability: unobtainium
02 - Insight LWTS-LR, street price under $15k ish availability: Barely !!!

Other than that, keep waitin' might be something else shortly.

OK, this post was over a year ago.
What else is available now? Thanks!

 

[wigwamitus]

...
OK, this post was over a year ago.
What else is available now? Thanks!
..

If you mean "REAL" thermal clipons, i.e. prism collimated, the only change is for the worse. LWTS-LR are now "unobtainium" as well. At least new ones are. However, I think @deersniper has a used one for sale in the PX. The LWTS-LR, is not a UTC/x/xii ... but if you can't get a UTC/x/xii, the LWTS-LR is the next best thing we can get (that's prism collimated AND repairable).
If I didn't have two UTC/x/xii, I'd definitely get an LWTS-LR ! These guys can enable hitting 12 inch (heated) steel out to 900yds at night ... if you can do it in the day.
So, we do see used UTC/x/xii and used LWTS-LR changing hands, in fact there's been rather an uptick in that lately as people play "musical real thermal clipons".

Now, there's always the PLA option, if you're so inclined

The other option is to keep saving and keep your eyes and ears open ... as there are a "glimmers" of some new items heading this way from somewhere on the outer edge of the galaxy !

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Bering Optics Super Yoter-C

Night Vision - Super Yoter C - Any Experience Yet?

I know these aren't super common yet, but this is an interesting clip on in the sub $5k range with a 640 core. Only info I've seen is human detection to 2,500 yds and up to 20x magnification supported but this seems very optimistic for a clip on under $5k. I'd love to be wrong!! Does anyone...

www.snipershide.com

Here it is as a prototype being used with a Sightmark Wraith digital scope in order to get through the lens recording...

 

[NavyshooterM40]

Doesn’t Burris now offer a Thermal Clip On?

 

[wigwamitus]

Like I said, if you're interested in supporting the PLA, there's lots of un-prism collimated units to choose from. The one's I've tested didn't hold up in the field, weren't water proof, etc. I personally I don't like putting money in their pockets, if I have a choice (for some items, we don't).

 

[Boogeyman]

If you mean "REAL" thermal clipons, i.e. prism collimated, the only change is for the worse. LWTS-LR are now "unobtainium" as well. At least new ones are. However, I think @deersniper has a used one for sale in the PX. The LWTS-LR, is not a UTC/x/xii ... but if you can't get a UTC/x/xii, the LWTS-LR is the next best thing we can get (that's prism collimated AND repairable).
If I didn't have two UTC/x/xii, I'd definitely get an LWTS-LR ! These guys can enable hitting 12 inch (heated) steel out to 900yds at night ... if you can do it in the day.
So, we do see used UTC/x/xii and used LWTS-LR changing hands, in fact there's been rather an uptick in that lately as people play "musical real thermal clipons".

Now, there's always the PLA option, if you're so inclined

The other option is to keep saving and keep your eyes and ears open ... as there are a "glimmers" of some new items heading this way from somewhere on the outer edge of the galaxy !

Hey Wigwamitus,
Would you happen to have an operation manual anywhere for one of your UTC’s? I picked one up and trying to get it all dialed in. Not a whole lot online for them in the YouTube world.

 

[TheHorta]

No love for the TigIR?

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Steiner is releasing one in a couple months, should be similar to the Super Yoter C, I bought one of each to compare. When I have both in hands I'll post about it.

 

[Huskydriver]

No love for the TigIR?

Exactly is the tig not living up to the hype?

 

[SkyScrapin]

Exactly is the tig not living up to the hype?

Plenty of love for the Tig. No deviation from thoughts documented on the longer thread.

Reality is, everyone wants a UTC, but they’re very hard to find in near perfect condition, and they command a price out of most ppls budget. The Tig continues to be the universal competitor without taking into account CCP products.

 

[wigwamitus]

... No love for the TigIR? ...

Sorry, brain lapse ... but yes, the Tig has a place in the line up. Big pluses of the Tig-IR .. has FLIR Bosun 640-core ... so NOT-Chinese.
And its also really tiny ... so can even be used for "walking an stalking" style hunting, with a small, short day optic.

Downsides are, not prism collimated ... and not very many "controls" to optimize the image (brightness is the only control, though most pallet choices have a "bold" and "non-bold" flavor, which act like "gain" (or "contrast") switches.

Further upsides include, multiple (Eratac) mounting options available, so you can more easily match to existing day scope mounts. Lilke both 36mm and 38mm (resulting center height of Tig). Uses two 16650 batts (or 4xc123 batts). It also has six saves for collimation settings on different rifles. I only have 4 rifles, so this works for me!

==
I've killed a number of critters with it ... and dismounted and remounted the Tig and its been dead on. So, once you collimate it for a given rifle, you're good to go with removing and remounting. I.E. the Eratac mounts are repeatable !

 

[[email protected]]

Did a search on this topic and got here
now that it is almost 2023 how about some updated info from the pack

I have a vortex 4.5 x 27 I would like to add thermal clip in in front

let me know the good options

 

[Conqueror]

Do-all systems that can be helmet-mounted, stand-alone, or short-range clip-on:
- iRay RH25
- Pixels on Target VooDoo-S

Mid-range clip-ons:
- Bering Super Yoter C
- Andres TigIR 6z+
- EoTech ClipIR
- Pulsar Krypton

Long-range clip-ons:
- Pixels on Target VooDoo-M
- EoTech ClipIR-LR
- EoTech ClipIR-ELR (very limited availability)

These are the ones you can buy new today, with a warranty, that I would consider owning in each category.

 

[NavyshooterM40]

Steiner C-35 is another option. Hard to beat for the money.

 

[padronanniversary]

Do-all systems that can be helmet-mounted, stand-alone, or short-range clip-on:
- iRay RH25
- Pixels on Target VooDoo-S

Mid-range clip-ons:
- Bering Super Yoter C
- Andres TigIR 6z+
- EoTech ClipIR
- Pulsar Krypton

Long-range clip-ons:
- Pixels on Target VooDoo-M
- EoTech ClipIR-LR
- EoTech ClipIR-ELR (very limited availability)

These are the ones you can buy new today, with a warranty, that I would consider owning in each category.

how is the iRay rh25 ? was considering this , any cons in terms of durability?

 

[TheHorta]

how is the iRay rh25 ? was considering this , any cons in terms of durability?

It’s new, so long term durability is a question, but it *feels* solid — alloy housing, etc.

Great for 1-8x LPVOs. Helmet mountable. Solid choice for 300 yard and in shots. Only $6K.

Voodoo-S and M are best-of-breed, and you pay for it. $15K and $20K respectively (and worth every penny).

ClipIR LR/ELR are excellent choices. There’s a brand new ELR being sold by SOK for $13.5K. That’s a steal.

 

[Evolution 9]

13.5K with a decade of warranty is definitely a steal.

@TheHorta do you have a good feel for the VooDoo-S… after initial “sight in”, how repeatable is the zero?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Dang Horta, you must have been a bad boy this year or Santa would have brought you a Flir Hiss and we would be seeing pics by now.

Well there's always next year if you are good.

 

[TheHorta]

13.5K with a decade of warranty is definitely a steal.

@TheHorta do you have a good feel for the VooDoo-S… after initial “sight in”, how repeatable is the zero?

Both the Voodoo-S and M have the same diopter-adjustable eyepiece. A lot of people question why PoT would do that (especially for the M), but it really works. There is zero POI shift on any of the units I’ve owned. In fact, there is more shift on my xELR (~1.5 MOA low) which has a fixed / collimated eyepiece.

Zero issues with shift on any of the POT units.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@Horta given that I have zero knowledge on the POT Voodoo-S or M, what is the "sight in" procedure when using as a clip on.

Do you shift the screen around via X & Y margin adjustments to "collimate" it with your day optic?

 

[TheHorta]

@Horta given that I have zero knowledge on the POT Voodoo-S or M, what is the "sight in" procedure when using as a clip on.

Do you shift the screen around via X & Y margin adjustments to "collimate" it with your day optic?

It comes “pre-collimated” from PoT. Just turn diopter to match the factory witness marks and you’re GTG.

But yes, you can adjust the diopter to sharpen up the TTL image, but that’s always where the witness marks are, so…

 

[Evolution 9]

There are videos and extensive forum posts from other members that describe in detail an actual sight in process which centers the screen on an X Y axis to sight it in with your day scope/POI. One user demonstrated his groups moving with each correction he input.

In that case, the adjustments were pretty coarse and he settled for hitting almost an inch low and right at 50 yards. He loves his Voodoo-S but had to “adjust his expectations”.

It’s very frustrating trying to determine what to buy when everyone has such different experiences with the same device.

If I was guaranteed Horta’s experience, I’d buy a Voodoo-S tomorrow. If I got the other guy’s experience after dropping 16K on a unit the manufacturer claims can shoot sub MOA with no zero shift, Id be livid.

 

[cantankerous]

Did a search on this topic and got here
now that it is almost 2023 how about some updated info from the pack

I have a vortex 4.5 x 27 I would like to add thermal clip in in front

let me know the good options

For your magnification range I'd point you towards the ELR or LR EOTechs.
If those are outside of your budget you might look for an old Apollo Pro 100mm (now discontinued). I have an Apollo and an ELR. The ELR absolutely outperforms the apollo at long range, but the apollo hangs with it out to 400-500 yards much better than I expected.

 

[Squibbler]

Both the Voodoo-S and M have the same diopter-adjustable eyepiece. A lot of people question why PoT would do that (especially for the M), but it really works. There is zero POI shift on any of the units I’ve owned. In fact, there is more shift on my xELR (~1.5 MOA low) which has a fixed / collimated eyepiece.

Zero issues with shift on any of the POT units.

Please elaborate. ... Zero POI shift with adjustable diopter. Does this mean that zero poi shift after diopter is set? Or no matter what diopter setting I have, there is no poi shift? So, if diopter gets to clarity and parallax free, then diopter gets accidently moved, assuming poi will occur.

A movable diopter makes sense to me to get best parallax free system with best possiblity for zero poi shift. But from the outside looking in, it looks like another possible point for error induction, if diopter gets moved. When $hit can go wrong, it will, like non locking turrets.

Also what signifies as zero poi shift? Less than .25 moa, .5 moa, 1moa??

 

[TheHorta]

Please elaborate. ... Zero POI shift with adjustable diopter. Does this mean that zero poi shift after diopter is set? Or no matter what diopter setting I have, there is no poi shift? So, if diopter gets to clarity and parallax free, then diopter gets accidently moved, assuming poi will occur.

A movable diopter makes sense to me to get best parallax free system with best possiblity for zero poi shift. But from the outside looking in, it looks like another possible point for error induction, if diopter gets moved. When $hit can go wrong, it will, like non locking turrets.

Also what signifies as zero poi shift? Less than .25 moa, .5 moa, 1moa??

With the diopter set to the factory collimation marks, or with you adjusting it while looking TTL. If you don’t set it properly, POI will definitely be off.

 

[WhereNow&How]

It comes “pre-collimated” from PoT. Just turn diopter to match the factory witness marks and you’re GTG.

But yes, you can adjust the diopter to sharpen up the TTL image, but that’s always where the witness marks are, so…

Horta does the POT Voodoo even have the ability to adjust the margins (move the screen) via a menu selection.

 

[WhereNow&How]

In that case, the adjustments were pretty coarse and he settled for hitting almost an inch low and right at 50 yards. He loves his Voodoo-S but had to “adjust his expectations”.

I think the coarse adjustment might be a by product of smaller lens.

On the Flir Thermosight line, all things being exactly equal except the lens size the adjustment per "click" are as follows.

19mm PTS 233 = 2.165 MOA per 1 adjustment unit
50mm PTS 536 = 0.825 MOA per 1 adjustment unit
75mm PTS 736 = 0.550 MOA per 1 adjustment unit

I assume this is the case with most all thermal scopes. Smaller lens = course adjustment, larger lens = finer adjustment.

But the road to hell is also paved with assumptions.

 

[padronanniversary]

Looks like I’ll be buying a VooDoo S based on these comments

 

[Capt_Right]

Horta does the POT Voodoo even have the ability to adjust the margins (move the screen) via a menu selection.

Yes, on the VooDoo-M you can adjust the margins. They come pre-adjusted from the factory and I found it pretty spot on. I might have moved it a single pixel after doing my own sight in, but it was pretty much dead on from the factory.

Their instructions says you can adjust the diopter to adjust zero, but they offer no instructions on how to do that. There is an arrow at the factory setting, so I just leave it there and have no issues.