Suppressors CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

Arevalosocom

Wizard
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 1, 2007
388
71
Hobart, IN
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/25/exploring.gun.loophole/index.html?iref=allsearch






Prestonburg, Kentucky (CNN) -- For Benjamin Ferguson, the Dewey Lake Fish and Gun Club brings back memories. As a child, Ferguson came to the modest gun range in rural Floyd County, Kentucky, to learn gun safety so he could go deer hunting with his family.

Now, the Army veteran and drug counselor has children of his own, six in total. He passes along knowledge about gun operation and safety and encourages his children to explore the guns -- safely, of course.

"It's curiosity that hurts," he said.

But the guns he's teaching his kids about -- the guns he and his friend, attorney and gun dealer Jason Reichenbach, have brought to the club today -- are bigger and more costly than the deer rifles he used as a kid.

"They're big-boy toys," Reichenbach said. "We used to shoot BB guns as kids, but then we went to college and got professional degrees and make professional wages, but we still want toys."

He spreads out his collection -- a Mark II Sten machine gun, a .45-caliber fully automatic machine gun and a suppressed .22-caliber rifle -- across a wooden picnic table, along with boxes of ammunition and paper targets.

For both men, safety is paramount. They think public schools should offer gun safety courses and federal authorities should perform background checks on people purchasing weapons like the ones they brought to the range.

Such Title II or National Firearms Act weapons include guns like short-barrelled rifles and destructive devices like grenades, and they are therefore regulated differently.

Ferguson says he keeps a collection in part for personal safety. This year alone, he says, several people have tried to break into his home. But he blanches at his friend's suggestion, made in jest, that he would actually fire at the intruders. His pump shotgun functions as a visual deterrent, he says.

In the past, Ferguson says, he had no problems purchasing guns. But a few months ago, he decided he wanted a silencer. Under federal regulations, silencers fall into the same category of Title II weapons as rockets and machine guns.

Tough scrutiny comes along with this classification. Unlike with other guns, for each Title II purchase, a person must submit photos and fingerprints to the federal authorities for a background check.

Even if those checks come back clear, a local official like a sheriff or a district attorney gets to weigh in on the purchase. In some jurisdictions, this local official will simply deny the purchase. This happened to him, Ferguson says with a sigh.

Still, <span style="font-weight: bold">through a federal loophole</span>, he got the silencer.

He bought it through his corporation and now holds it in a legal device called a National Firearms Act Trust, drawn up by a Florida estate planning attorney, David Goldman.

Federal authorities say the increasingly <span style="font-weight: bold">popular loophole</span> allows people to get these weapons without the normal precautions. Last year, they received 17,000 such applications for purchases.

Enthusiasts attribute the popularity of the loophole to the part of federal law that allows local authorities to veto the purchase.

In the world of gun trusts, Goldman is a big name. He maintains a website with information about the relevant federal regulations and has created a network of attorneys across the country who practice this kind of law.

Goldman says his interest began with a phone call from a gun store a few years ago.

"They basically said their clients were using trusts to purchase NFA firearms," Goldman said. "They wanted to know if they were going to get into trouble or if their clients would get into any trouble."

He quickly realized that the regulations allowed for this type of transaction because they treat people different from trusts or corporations. A person must get background checks and submit to local scrutiny, but that's not the case for trusts and corporations. So Goldman took an estate planning trust as a model and modified it to ensure that the clients could do what they want with the weapons and stay in line with the myriad regulations.

Benjamin Ferguson bought a silencer through a federal weapons loophole.For many reasons, Goldman says, the trusts are a better deal. They cost less than corporations, and they provide a vehicle to pass these weapons on to others.

Ferguson and Reichenbach say they like this element of the trusts. They want their children to inherit their expensive weapons without any hassle, and the trusts provide for that.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Teresa Ficaretta with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives</span> calls this financial planning feature a "positive" use of trusts but says her agency is closely tracking the use of these devices.

<span style="font-weight: bold">"The lack of background check, that is of concern," </span>Ficaretta said, adding that her group has seen a meteoric rise in interest and applications.

These factors prompted a review of the regulations; Ficaretta says the <span style="font-weight: bold">bureau hopes to to update them "to bring them more in line with what's happening in the real world." </span>


Also hoping for a change is the <span style="text-decoration: underline">National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association.</span> In its filing with the firearms agency asking for a rule change, <span style="font-weight: bold">it cites the rise in interest and the <span style="font-style: italic">lack of background checks as problematic</span>.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The association's members want increased federal scrutiny</span>, but they also want to completely do away with local control. They say the chief local law enforcement officers apply their authority in an arbitrary manner. Further, they claim, the popularity of gun trusts is directly related to the unwillingness of some local law enforcement officers to approve these purchases.

But one former chief local law enforcement officer says he's only using the authority granted by the law.

J. Tom Morgan served as district attorney in DeKalb County, Georgia, for 12 years. For Morgan, the incredible firepower of some of the weapons in this class means a person must have a good reason for wanting one in his urban county.

"Just because someone liked the idea of having one, that didn't make sense to me," Morgan said. He denied all but one such purchase.

Besides, Morgan says, the law enforcement community expressed uneasiness over possibly confronting people who are armed with such weapons.

Either way, a decision on a change to the act is still a long way off. In a superheated political climate for any type of gun regulation, this battle has largely played out behind the scenes.

But the issues involved are familiar. Enthusiasts argue that they have an individual right, given to them by the constitution, to have weapons for personal safety or just for fun. But local law enforcement officials worry about the impact on their communities, a larger question not likely to be resolved by federal rule-making.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

Horse shit. He denied all except one, for his buddy I'm sure. CLEO shouldn't have input on a darn thing IMO. They don't know what's right or wrong for me or my family. They simply uphold the law, not decide WHO to apply the law to without discretion.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

I think it's hysterical that the government made rules in 30's to limit private ownership and the legal and business world made their stupid model irrelevant to a large degree. Heck every farmer I know has a trust now days. An LLC takes 5 minutes to apply for.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

CNN's agenda is so obvious.

How is this even on their radar? The number of crimes committed by legally owned NFA items since 1934 is so small I don't need more than two hands to count them.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

I read it as a positive when the NFA wants to keep CLEO's from pulling a dick move on a law abiding citizen. They still do a THROUGH background check on every item that's put in the system.

I went the trust route so my heirs won't have to pay for something i ve already paid for. I'm sure, given enough time, they'll amend that and collect twice, just like the BS death tax.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1garand30064</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CNN's agenda is so obvious.

How is this even on their radar? The number of crimes committed by legally owned NFA items since 1934 is so small I don't need more than two hands to count them. </div></div>

@#$%^&* liberal media!! I am sure that they have gotten a "tip" or some sort of position/policy statement from the damn VPC or other such loathsome organization which sparked interest in an "investigative" piece of non-news!
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

I dislike CNN as much as the next guy but I didn't view this article as bad for us. I think its somewhat comforting that the ATF/NFA Branch is also saying the chief LEO in your area is abusing his power of refusing to sign and or charging an exuberant amount to do so.

I think things will change at some time down the road, but not anytime soon. Maybe they can make a law saying the LEO's must sign if that citizen is in good standing and has passed a background check.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went the trust route so my heirs won't have to pay for something i ve already paid for.</div></div>
Transfers to heirs are Tax Free.

The firearms may be transferred on a tax-exempt basis to any beneficiary of the estate (heir). The executor would apply on ATF Form 5, Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of a Firearm, for a tax-exempt transfer to a lawful heir. A beneficiary is anyone named in the decedents will or, in the absence of a will, anyone entitled to inherit under the laws of the State in which the decedent last resided. NFA firearms may be transferred directly interstate to a beneficiary of the estate. When a firearm is being transferred to an individual heir, his or her fingerprints on FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany the transfer application. However, if any Federal, State or local law prohibits the heir from receiving or possessing the firearm, ATF will not approve the application.

The heir excuse for a Trust is not valid.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dislike CNN as much as the next guy but I didn't view this article as bad for us. I think its somewhat comforting that the ATF/NFA Branch is also saying the chief LEO in your area is abusing his power of refusing to sign and or charging an exuberant amount to do so.

I think things will change at some time down the road, but not anytime soon. Maybe they can make a law saying the LEO's must sign if that citizen is in good standing and has passed a background check. </div></div>

I agree. My local police chief refused to sign, because he doesn't think citizens should own suppressors. He allowed his own personal bias get in the way of doing his job. That is the reason the trusts exist IMO.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coyote223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dislike CNN as much as the next guy but I didn't view this article as bad for us. I think its somewhat comforting that the ATF/NFA Branch is also saying the chief LEO in your area is abusing his power of refusing to sign and or charging an exuberant amount to do so.

I think things will change at some time down the road, but not anytime soon. Maybe they can make a law saying the LEO's must sign if that citizen is in good standing and has passed a background check. </div></div>

I agree. My local police chief refused to sign, because he doesn't think citizens should own suppressors. He allowed his own personal bias get in the way of doing his job. That is the reason the trusts exist IMO. </div></div>


The one problem I see, is if they change the regs, I imagine they'll "update" the tax stamp fee as well......
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arevalosocom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also hoping for a change is the <span style="text-decoration: underline">National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association.</span> In its filing with the firearms agency asking for a rule change, <span style="font-weight: bold">it cites the rise in interest and the <span style="font-style: italic">lack of background checks as problematic</span>.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The association's members want increased federal scrutiny</span>, but they also want to completely do away with local control.



</div></div>

I agree with doing away with local CLEO approval, but the the NFATCA wants more Federal scrutiny??
I don't get it....

I am hoping to get my first can this summer, sounds like I'd better grab a gear and get going now.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

Reichenbach is an attorney who does trusts and is also a Class III dealer. I can't help but wonder if he didn't contact CNN in an attempt to drum up business. I hope this wasn't the case.

If by "increased federal scrutiny" they mean that trusts would be phased out, but the CLEO signature provision is removed, I could live with that change.

FWIW, I've heard that many sheriffs in Kentucky have traditionally signed off on NFA paperwork.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

I hate the word "loophole." First of all, it has such a negative connotation that just using the word in the story makes the gun owner sound like a criminal. Secondly, this isn't even really a loophole. It says right in the National Firearms Act that trusts and corporations can own Title II weapons, how is it a loophole if this method of acquiring them is specifically laid out and sanctioned by the legislation in question?
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

Again I would like to challange CNN to produce the data showing where LEGALLY procured NFA items where used in violent crimes.

Strange how that one most important detail that is needed to prove cause for a change in the law, is always omitted.
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate the word "loophole." First of all, it has such a negative connotation that just using the word in the story makes the gun owner sound like a criminal. Secondly, this isn't even really a loophole. It says right in the National Firearms Act that trusts and corporations can own Title II weapons, how is it a loophole if this method of acquiring them is specifically laid out and sanctioned by the legislation in question? </div></div>

+1
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association


This association needs to be bankrupt please write them

Tell them your displeasure and do not join them

They want the small manufacturers out of business

I do not support them or small arms review after the owners formed this association. In my opinion they pose a threat to lawful gun ownership except for elites.

Trust you still have to do a NICS check
 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

That bit about people not wanting to get in trouble made David Goldman sound stupid, or calculatingly willing to give CNN a line they would use at the expense of the community for inclusion of his name in the report.

If CNN wanted to talk with me about anything I would not be interested. They are an irresponsible news agency composed of muckrakers. This is a perfect example of muckraking. Another good example is all the recent and continuing news coverage of middle eastern turmoil. What would a day of rage be without news coverage? CNN has blood on its hands for its involvement in the coverage of recent middle eastern turmoil.

CNN is also one of several news entities that have no qualms about giving terrorists coverage on their terms- footage that by perspective or content nationalistically portray terrorists as valiant or brave. This spurs their cause. There is no reason to portray a force positively that considers killing 14 civilians and damaging one coalition vehicle to be a military victory. Such news entities have blood on their hands.

Furthermore I'm sure the BATF is capable of taking the included trust paperwork, reading the names and addresses of the trustees and conducting a background check with the FBI. For CNN to imply otherwise is a slight to the government agency that implies they are incompetent and or negligent, which is not the case. The exceedingly small criminal history for hundreds of thousands of NFA registered items is strong evidence that the ATF has no negligence in the matter, and that the ATF is effectively regulating the items.

That isn't to say I don't hope, as does everyone else involved, that at some point the process could be made more efficient as it pertains to the length of time required to obtain approval.

 
Re: CNN: Reports on use of Trusts to buy NFA weapons..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association


This association needs to be bankrupt please write them

Tell them your displeasure and do not join them

They want the small manufacturers out of business

I do not support them or small arms review after the owners formed this association. In my opinion they pose a threat to lawful gun ownership except for elites.

Trust you still have to do a NICS check </div></div>

Shark: While entitled to you opinion, you really should do a bit more research on the NFATCA. What they stand for and what they have done for our community before making uninformed comments.
<span style="font-style: italic">"They want the small manufactures out of business"</span> could not possibly be further from the truth.
The organization has done a lot to undo many of the problems that have been brought on by members of our very own NFA community by greedy dealers.
Can you name any other organization or publication that has stuck up for the NFA community in the last oh, let's say since May of 1986?
So, I'm calling BS on your statements about the NFATCA. It's easy to throw stones. Especially about something you obviously know very little about.