Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

woohoo glad to hear it i handle them with gloves and they feel very slick i cant wait to load them in my new 25/06 and see how they fly
laugh.gif
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and i really hope me asking all this stuff will help others who read it aswell.

only thing ive noticed is all my tips r filled with hnb lol would that hurt anything?
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

I went through the coating fad some years ago with molybdenum and danzac. I never saw enough results to justify the effort. I already clean my bore at long intervals with no issues so coating only gives me very slightly higher velocities and less pressure for the same powder charge. Not worth it in my experience. Every few years a new coating becomes the rage and is dropped for something else. I spend the time and effort doing stuff that gives me better results like turning and truing necks......I am no ballistician and that's just my experience coating bullets.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

magman687,
Finely, Someone else smells it. Yes, they smell strongly of ammonia don’t they?
I posed this statement along time ago but there were no comments that I recall.

Yes, degreasing is a very important first step. I use CLR to wash my pills.
I ended up using steel birdshot, much smaller than BBs and seems to coat better.

Now, when you shoot, I would like for you to pay attention to the physical heat of your brass
and let me know if its Hot, Warm or Cold.....Just curious......

Tater
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ggmanning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went through the coating fad some years ago with molybdenum and danzac. I never saw enough results to justify the effort. I already clean my bore at long intervals with no issues so coating only gives me very slightly higher velocities and less pressure for the same powder charge. Not worth it in my experience. Every few years a new coating becomes the rage and is dropped for something else. I spend the time and effort doing stuff that gives me better results like turning and truing necks......I am no ballistician and that's just my experience coating bullets. </div></div>

Somebody is not drinking the cool-aid.....lol
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TaterInTheSouth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">magman687,
Finely, Someone else smells it. Yes, they smell strongly of ammonia don&#146;t they?
I posed this statement along time ago but there were no comments that I recall.

Yes, degreasing is a very important first step. I use CLR to wash my pills.
I ended up using steel birdshot, much smaller than BBs and seems to coat better.

Now, when you shoot, I would like for you to pay attention to the physical heat of your brass
and let me know if its Hot, Warm or Cold.....Just curious......

Tater</div></div>

lol glad to know its not just me ethier :p.
maybe someone can tell us y it smells that way.

ill be getting my gun back from the smith at the end of the month and ill let you know about the brass temp
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Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7197986/description.html

Summary of results

20 uncoated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2368 feet per second and a maximum barrel temperature of 120° Fahrenheit. A first set of 20 boron nitride powder-coated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2732 feet per secondand a maximum barrel temperature of 138° Fahrenheit. A second set of 20 boron nitride powder-coated rounds had an average muzzle velocity of 2719 feet per second and a maximum barrel temperature of 150° Fahrenheit. The average gain inmuzzle velocity by coating rounds with boron nitride powder was 157 feet per second. The average gain in barrel temperature was 18° Fahrenheit.
And also see at the end of the article.... </div></div>
Well if it's increasing velocity with the same charge it's increasing pressure and if it's incraesing barrel temp then it's not working
to reduce friction in my view . I will stick with Moly disulphide .
If it smells of ammonia that is puzzeling. However ammonia is pure poison on brass cartridge cases and bullet jackets as it hardens them.
Hydrogen and Nitrogen react to produce ammonia gas. So the air inside the tumbler and the HBN with the steel balls with heat may be reacting in some way. However HBN is supposed to have a very low chemical reactance.
If I knew exactly what was going into the tumbler I could run it by an industrial chemist I know and he might be able to work it out.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

Country, No heat my friend..
My curiosity my have mislead, I can shoot a string of say 15 to 20 rounds with about 20 to 30 seconds
between each shot. I can reach in the open action and remove the last spent brass with
my fingers and place it to my face..Its not much warmer than ambient. Heck, It seems like the first
few actually come out cooler. (I know that’s not likely) but, it does seem that way.
I discovered this by accident because I started load’en single rounds when I switched to Burgers as they don’t
fit the magazine. I am shooting a 20” heavy barrel in .308.....
Something funky is going on.. Could decompression play that significant a role “IF” the barrel and pills are that slick?
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

Country, Sorry,
I use a large Gavascon “antacid” bottle. It does not seem to matter
If I use steel shot or not.. when I first open the bottle I get a quick strong wiff of ammonia and it Dissipates quickly.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

i have no heat ethier and the ammonia smell seems to last a long while and i tumble mine right inside the tumbler no jar
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its a vid tumbler if that matters with the same bbs as the thread starter used daisy zinc plated steel bbs.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry about the 'ammonia', but I really, really had to go....</div></div>

must be a nija sneaking into tater and my house without being seen.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

I think I have solved the mystery Boron nitride is produced using ammonia.
[edit] Preparation and reactivity of hexagonal BN
Hexagonal boron nitride is obtained by the reacting boron trioxide (B2O3) or boric acid (B(OH)3) with ammonia (NH3) or urea (CO(NH2)2) in nitrogen atmosphere:

There must be some residual ammonia left after the process.
I spent 25 years working out exactly how and why Moly disulphide MoS2 works but I am not going to persue HBN .
Just one more detail to convince me that MoS2 is better than HBN .
Coatings like WS2 and HBN may have lower coefficients of friction and higher heat tollerance but it's not just about that.
WS2 has more rolling debri between the two rubbing surfaces than MoS2 . MoS2 has more flatter and interlocked debri between the two rubbing surfaces.
Which make a more sealed surface and less open to flame penertration . Just because something is slicker does not mean it's micro structure is better at resisting the powders blow torch effect .



 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

I have also observed cooler brass and barrels at times using MoS2.
I related this to the coating on the bore giving less soaking time for heat as the surface of the steel has some protection and the slickness as you say helps to extract the heat with more speed and efficiency.
If you look up the bore of a MoS2 barrel you see that no loose powder fouling stays inside the barrel as it does with naked bullets at times. Less friction should relate to less heat .
It depends a lot on how much moly film you allow to build up .
HBN could be doing a similar thing. I am very curious but the brain is slower now and the body is weak.
I did a 10 year test with stored ammo with MoS2 coated bullets and naked mainly to study neck hardening . However after 10 years the moly bullets had smoother pull and less neck tension variations than naked bullet.
I wonder how HBN would fair in such a test with traces of brass hardening " ammonia " on the bullets ?
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

tyvm country you really seem to know your stuff and im very glad you shared that with us ammonia dont sound good but i would hope it isnt enough to coase a problem im my bore as they say its not good to use.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magman687</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tyvm country you really seem to know your stuff and im very glad you shared that with us ammonia dont sound good but i would hope it isnt enough to coase a problem im my bore as they say its not good to use. </div></div>
It's not the bore that is the issue. Bore solvents can be based on ammonia or Ferric chloride to dissolve copper fouling. It will not do much harm to a steel bore.
The issue is the brass case. Ammonia will harden brass and speed up stress corrosion.
How much ammonia is there is debatable and it may be very little . However knowing this new info about HBN I would not store reloads for extended periods with HBN coated bullets.
When a bullet is seated the case neck becomes stressed and this tension causes structural changes in the brass over time more quickly than normal age hardening. Any Amine ( Alkaline substance ) which ammonia is one of the worst will help speed up this process.
New unfired brass is better as it is softer to start with . Cases that have been fired numerous times and then reloaded and then stored will show more dramatic results.
This is one of the photos from my 10 year trial. It plainly shows dramatic shrinkage of the case neck and this would adversely affect neck tension. Also to shrink it must be getting harder also. A slight hairline crack is forming in one neck but the photo will not pick it up . These cases were reloaded many times and not annealed . To increase the effect.

NW4.jpg
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TaterInTheSouth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Country, What were the storage conditions? I have always thought this
condition of welded ammo was due to a galvanic reaction.
Wow, It actually shrinks?? </div></div>
The storage conditions were in MTM ammo boxes then inside a Metal 50 cal ammo box . The kind that have a rubber seal. They were stored in quite a few diffirent places in my workshop in two differet houses over the 10 years. However during summer they would have got to about maybe 30 C and in winter down to 12C at times.
Galvanic reaction could well be part of neck welding in it's later stages after stress corrosion and shinkage has started . It would need some moisture to aid it. However unsealed case necks draw air in and out of the case during temp changes and this results in minute moisture deposits between the bullet and the case neck which start brass discoloration and that might aid galvanic action . I have a photo of a bullet that was starting to weld to the brass case and after pulling the bullet cartrige brass was left on the bullet at the base edge. Pulling force was high. cartridge brass is about 75% copper and 25% zinc . Bullets jackets are about 95 % copper and 5% zinc. So they are not very dissimilar metals so galvanic reaction would be very slow but it can happen . I think I proved it .
However what interestes most shooters is the short term changes in neck tension and that is caused by age hardening and stress corrosion. It starts as soon as the case is made and goes on in stages after a few reloads and bullets are seated with stress.
Photo of cartridge brass welded to bullet jacket . I should note that none of the MoS2 bullets showed any sign of this.
NW2.jpg


Inside case necks showing brass corrosion stains in thin lines where air has been pumped in and out with temp variations. Happened with moly bullet also but to a lesser degree.
NW5.jpg

Nickel coated bullets can cause long term neck welding.
I am also wary of long term storage of loaded nickel plated brass but have never tested that .
The mistake I made in this test was I did not include some new unfired brass and fired annealed brass for comparison. However I am 100% sure that they would have lasted better. If I knew back then what I know now I could have designed a much better test .
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

Your bore is going to make a difference right out of the gate. Both Moly and hBN have specific applications. Lab Grade Moly is typically 99.8% pure with a 1 to 3 micron size. hBN (far more preferrable in <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> bores) is typically negative 5 micron or smaller.

First, hBN. The patent shows it as being most effective on a standard steel bore, far less effective on a polished Stainless Steel bore and has no effect on a 17-4 S/S Electro Polished bore, this because the negative micron particles cannot ingrain themselves into the surface and create the required ceramic protective coating.

This is the Patent. There are a lot of "between the lines" analysis contained therein and I suggest you ask questions about any aspect you don't understand. The primary intent has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy, and there would likely be no change in group size in your particular rifle, but there certainly can be. The objective is to double or even triple barrel life, and for us that is critical. Barrels for some of these Swiss rifles are virtually impossible to obtain other than with an inordinate amount of expenditure. This is the nature of the zfk55.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7197986/description.html

hBN is not typically susceptible to moisture and thus does not allow corrosion to affect the lands/grooves of the bore. This is a rather large advantage over Moly in certain scenarios.

The process is simple. If you've ever fired a copper jacketed projectile in your rifle, you must use a water based copper removal specific such as Foam Wipe Out. Whatever you use, make sure its water based and ammonia free. Once you've borescoped and found the bore to be <span style="font-style: italic">completely copper free</span>, if the bore is .30 caliber, roll a .270 (or whatever, but a bit smaller diameter than your bore) caliber <span style="font-style: italic">clean</span> swab in a mixture of 100% Denatured Alcohol and hBN. Use a small, sealable pill bottle, glass (preferrable) or plastic to mix and store the slurry. The ratio should replicate a slurry of the consistency of milk. Run it back and forth through the bore and let stand.
Within half an hour I fire an impact coated projectile through the bore and that's it. The bore is effectively ceramic coated.

Everyone has a methodology and most involve pill bottles in the tumbler suspended in media. I don't. I use 16oz plastic jars with screw on lids, and not inside the tumbler in in the media. I made a secondary lid for the tumbler/vibrator on a CNC. Its 1/2" thick Sintra with a 1/4" deep channel cut into the bottom to fit over the inside and outside edge of the tumbler. A 5/16" hole is drilled in the dead center to acommodate the shaft and wing-nut. All four jars are spaced evenly around the shaft on top of the lid. The tumbler is empty.

All four jars are filled to the 1/3rd mark with impact coated .177 steel bBBs. The BBs must be washed in Dawn or cleaned with a Sonic Vibrator and denatured alcohol. Add a nominal 1.5gr of hBN and vibrate for three hours.

Place 50 .30 caliber (or whatever, untouched by human hands) clean projectiles in each jar, add a nominal .5gr (this amount is arbitrary) of hBN and vibrate for three hours. The jars on top impact coat the projectiles easily 4 times harder and faster than in a pill bottle suspended inside the tumbler in media. Once the lids are screwed down tight, use a 1/2" wide strip of plastic tape around the area between the lid and the jar. Negative 5 micron hBN is so fine it can potentially find it's way through the threads.
Use a large slotted spoon to remove the impact coated projectiles from the jars and tumble then in a Terrycloth towel.

We begin by stripping the chambers, throats and bore with Wipe Out. Its an ammonia free, water based bore cleaner that removes literally 100% of everything. Carbon, copper, any kind of fouling including Moly. We leave the Foam Type Wipe Out in the bore and throat for about two hours then dry swab everything. We do a <span style="font-style: italic">follow-up inspection </span>for any copper residue with a Hawekeye Borescope. A complete, 100% copper free bore is essential.
I wash the bullets in very hot, soapy water with Dawn. I use a bowl with a plastic strainer that just fits in it. Once washed, I thorougly rinse with hot water, not cold. From that point I handle the projectiles as little as possible until they're in the impact jars and then only with disposable latex gloves. Assuming you've already treated the .177 steel BBs, you can put 50 .30 caliber or 100 smaller caliber bullets in each jar.

Mike, we've changed our methodology just a bit since you read the last email. We now place a thin layer of dense foam in the bottom of the Dillon. the jars are sealed where the top threads down onto the jar with friction plastic electrical tape to keep any hBN from leaking out. We place the jars on their sides and pack them in with chunks of foam. We place enough foam on top of them so that when the vibrator lid is screwed down they're trapped tightly. This keeps everything horizontal and the bullets stay on the horizontal position. Works much better and you won't need a specialty lid for your Dillon. The attatched pics are of one of our smaller vibrators with two of the older jars we original used. We now use the new jars in the larger Dillon, but they do show how the jars are packed and kept horizontal.

With hBN, heat is good but not entirely necessary. We use heat in the form of a Halogen body shop lamp. Placement of the lamp is critical for the well-being of your tumbler. Too close and you'll soften the plastic. Vibrate them for 3 hours. Remove them with a slotted spoon and tumble them in a Terry towel a few times. They'll come out perfect. This horizontal impact coating with steel BBs in a vibrator with no media makes them hit hard and fast, and that's the secret to perfect coating. Even small tipped bullets come out perfectly with no damage to the plastic tips at all.

------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures

This is the .177 steel BB preparation.

hBN001.jpg


hBN002.jpg


And bullets.

hBN003.jpg


Original Vibrator setup, and they still use this one too. We do an awful lot of bullets here. Sometimes thney keep media in the tumbler so they can clean brass while impact coating.

tumblers001.jpg

Tumbler2002.jpg

Tumbler001.jpg


Newest method.
hBNB.jpg

hBNC.jpg


MolyA.jpg

MolyB.jpg



------------------------------------------------------

More pics to come.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

Bullets before Terry towel tumbling.

hBN004.jpg


After

hBN005.jpg


Borescoping with the original borescope. This one is a flexible one and was about 1/5th the image quality of the Hawkeye they bought, but the old one was only $300 and the Hawkeye was $1,000.00 but it was absolutely necessary for bore control and inspection.

Borescope2.jpg


Borescope1.jpg


Ok, so how do we prep our projectiles before and process at all? And this includes cases. Its a lot of work but it all proves itself on the targets.
This is from my Brother's archives.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

We only have one projectile for the AR 10s. The Sierra Matchking 175s.
We trim meplats, point and sort. Typically I seem to find only three weights with a semi-rare odd one. 174.9, 175 and 175.1. The odd one always seems to be 175.2. Spread allowance is 1/10th gr. Meplat trimming comes close to equalizing projectile weights, and pointing makes a real difference at 400 yards and out to 1,000.

The trimmer indexes on the projectile's ogive, not the base. Once the brass is sized and trimmed we sort it by weight as well allowing no more that a one tenth spread. Out of 100 we'll typically have 6 different weight categories. Surprisingly, both Lapua and LR are neck and neck for consistency for us.

Sizing and seating are done with Redding Precision Match dies only. No other.

After reloading we also sort <span style="font-style: italic">loaded cartridges </span>by overall weight allowing no more than a two tenths spread. All sorts of sorts, but results are consistent and I make the time to do it.
Our private range is a 500 yard maximum.
------------------------------------------------------

Meplat Trimmer.

MeplatTrimmer.jpg


The bullet Pointer.

Armoury2003.jpg


Wilson Case Trimmer, the only one we use.

wilson002.jpg


And lots of Blue on the reloading side.


Armoury2004.jpg


 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

Wipe out does seem to be a promising product but it does not dissolve lead fouling that well . Untill I see a materials data safety sheet on this product I will not use it. Can't find one but have not looked for a while .
Keeping Ammonia away from the gun is a good idea and if Wipe Out helps to do that then it is a good idea.
I don't see anything that HBN does that is better than MoS2 or WS2 especially seeing that HBN can contain traces of " Ammonia "
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My very limited google research finds boron nitride ... is supposedly the second hardest substance known to man (behind diamonds). While I can see how hBN bullets would help by making bullets more slippery I can't shake the thought that they may also be polishing your bores (a good thing for production barrels, not quite so sure that's a good thing in a custom barrel).</div></div>

Do more research. For science stuff, Wikipedia is an excellent resource to start. Learn the chemical property variations and terminology. "hex-" is an important distinction - learn what characteristic it represents as opposed to c- (cube).

Topics of study:
Carbon / allotropes
(diamond)
(graphite)

Boron-Nitrogen
(Boron Nitride)

-these two elements bracket Carbon on the periodic chart and when combined into a molecule "Boron Nitride", do some things similarly to carbon and others quite differently.

If you are familiar with graphite and diamonds, you are part way home. Graphite and diamonds are BOTH relatively pure carbon. Difference is in the crystalline structure of the atomic assembly at solidification. c-carbon or cubic crystal carbon is diamond. h-carbon or hexagonal crystal carbon is graphite. Big difference. Same element.

Changing the angle, type, and number of molecular bonds makes a tremendous difference in the shear strength and relative motion.

Crystal strength effects are one aspect of Boron Nitride (BN) that is similar to Carbon. hex- makes a slippery flat 2-d crystal, like graphite, and cube- makes a HARD durable 3-d crystal, like diamond.

If you get the right form (h-), you're not going to get the abrasion that you fear. You get a powder that is slipperier than graphite and that is more stable over a wider range of temperatures and pressures.

In short, all forms of Carbon are not the same. Nor are all forms of Boron Nitride.

The h- and c- prefixes mean something important.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll never go back, cleaning is a joke, did you get the .5 micron? </div></div> I got the Tubbs kit. I coat 208GR Amax. The HBN looks greyish after the fact. Have to really wipe then with a towel. Also there seems to remain tiny clumps of HBN on the jacket. Don't want to shoot em till I know I got it down pat.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: phreakmode</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion you need to wash the BBs with acetone after 2 or 3 batches, the grey discoloration is not hBN, but rather particle contanimation. </div></div>

I didn't use BB's Just the bullets and the HBN per the instructions in the Tubbs kit. I only washed the bullets with dawn and warm water. I could try washing them in acetone but the bullets appeared to the naked eye to be completely clean.
 
Re: Coating bullets with hBN, with pics!

I know a lot of you have seen my results in the countless past threads on hBN but here's another shot in honor of this ancient threads resurrection.


nlqygw.jpg


I don't clean the bullets or any of that. I just take them out of the box and add them to my tumbler (a vitamin bottle). I add a small handful probably around 30-40 bullets to the bottle and I have probably 50-70 SS-BBs in there too. Close up the bottle and slap it into the drum tumbler so that it tumbler end over end using old cut up towels to hold the bottle lightly in position. Turn tumbler on for ~6 hours and pull them out, towel them off and done. I've done and shot thousands. I don't wash/pre-treat the bullets, BBs or bottle. I use probably a 1/4 tsp of -5 micron hBN.