No, no he does not already know this. 
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Why would I have asked the question if I already knew the answer?
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Why would I have asked the question if I already knew the answer?
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Cock on Close Vs Cock On Open
- Thread starter mikehill85
- Start date
Why would I ask a question I already knew the answer to? You’re quick!No, no he does not already know this.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Ok, which bolt actions were you talking about, because even the Enfield has about 50% cock on open.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
I’ll rephrase.
I don’t personally know of any bolt action rifle, current or otherwise, that is 100% cock on close.
I supposed some may exist, but seeking one out for your intended purpose seems like a lot of work for a problem that doesn’t exist. Especially if the rest of the gun is a complete piece of garbage.
I don’t personally know of any bolt action rifle, current or otherwise, that is 100% cock on close.
I supposed some may exist, but seeking one out for your intended purpose seems like a lot of work for a problem that doesn’t exist. Especially if the rest of the gun is a complete piece of garbage.
First it was five seconds, then it was two seconds, now it’s five seconds per year?
Joking aside, the pin spring is very long and working on a very short stroke, not in a coil bind, and guided by the pin itself. It’s a pretty good situation for a spring. You’re addressing the the least likely failure mode, and contributing to the most likely failure mode. You should know better, and yet you're going to continue the ritual. This is why there’s a frenzy.
What “intended purpose”? I simply asked how cock on close bolt action rifles avoid having an exposed firing pin when not cocked. It’s okay if you’re not aware of a cock on close bolt action. I’m sure There’s a lot of things you aren’t aware of. Just say, “I don’t know.”
Sure. I wasn’t aware of that. That’s why I asked the question. Cock on close, cock on open. Makes sense. The internet is truly a cesspool of humanity.
No I haven’t. Again, I take 5 seconds a year to do it. I don’t think or care about it. Believe it or not.
If you ever decide you want to concern your self with the dead hooker in the car (love that analogy!), the spring wear issue has been researched and tested ad nauseam in the context of whether to store magazines empty, full, or even disassembled. I know it's counter-intuitive, but what everyone is saying is correct. It's the cycling of the spring, and not the long-term compression, that causes fatigue.
BTW, unless there is a fancy bolt action out there somewhere I'm not aware of, when a bolt action isn't cocked there is protusion.
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D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Which bolt action rifle actions are cock-on-closing vs cock-on-opening?
I haven't seen a comprehensive list yet. Here's what I can think of off the top of my head: Cock on opening: Mauser 98 Mosin-Nagant Schmidt-Rubin / K31 Springfield MAS-36 Cock on closing: Pre-98 Mausers (incl. Swedish Mauser and Arisaka) Lee-Enfield / Lee-Metford Older black powder rifles...
www.thehighroad.org
If you really are a mechanical engineer, then you might want to go and open ANY of your old text books and look at the chapters on elastic deformation, plastic deformation, creep and cyclic fatigue as you have come to some wildly inaccurate conclusions about how springs work.
To answer your other question, an inertial firing pin would be the easiest way to overcome an out of battery discharge scenario similar to the one you mentioned.
By the way, decocking your bolt is a fucking stupid idea. Not only does it NOT extend the useful life, it is actually detrimental to the lifespan of your spring and you DO deserve to be berated for it.
To answer your other question, an inertial firing pin would be the easiest way to overcome an out of battery discharge scenario similar to the one you mentioned.
By the way, decocking your bolt is a fucking stupid idea. Not only does it NOT extend the useful life, it is actually detrimental to the lifespan of your spring and you DO deserve to be berated for it.
Why can’t we just skip to the end? Why don’t you just fucking tell us what the answer is that you want to hear so you can stop motherfucking all the answers you don’t like.
You’re like a fucking woman who gets mad we can’t read her fucking mind.
The firing pin would protrude as you pushed the bolt forwards, and put a round into the chamber. The bolt would stop traveling forwards, and you would start to rotate the bolt to cock it and retract the firing pin.
The key is that at this point, the bolt isn't actually all the way forwards. The firing pin is probably touching the back of the cartridge, and it may even have dimpled the primer if you ran the bolt really fast. But the cartridge still has 50-100 thousandths to go forwards still before it's fully chambered.
This last push forwards of the bolt happens when you rotate the handle shut. The bolt face cams itself forwards while the firing pin remains stationary, held back by the trigger sear. The bolt face finishes chambering the round by pushing it the rest of the way in, and the firing pin "retracts" below the surface of the bolt face before this happens. The firing pin isn't actually retracting here, it's completely stationary and the bolt face/body is just moving forwards. Even if the firing pin is touching the primer, it can't hit the primer hard enough to set it off because the cartridge isn't fully chambered and can freely move forwards and away from the firing pin.
It's not much different to how an open-bolt machine guns prevented out of battery discharges, even though their firing pin NEVER retracts. You can't hit the primer hard enough to set it off if the cartridge still has room to move forwards. The firing pin only sets the primer off when the cartridge can't move forwards any more. The difference is that the trigger sear catches the whole bolt on an open-bolt machine gun and holds it to the rear. In a cock-on-close bolt action rifle the trigger sear catches only the firing pin, and holds it just behind where the bolt face will end up when the bolt is fully closed.
Out of battery discharges only happen in these guns if the cartridge gets stuck part of the way into the chamber. Then it's possible to set the primer off early because the cartridge is no longer free to move forwards and away from the protruding firing pin. For a properly cleaned firearm in working condition, with ammunition that you haven't mangled into an irregular shape, you will always be able to safety chamber and fire without an out of battery discharge.
Someone actually tested this and it turns out leaving springs (in this case a magazine spring) under stress for extended periods of time does weaken them which was my only point. I think you should get a refund on whatever textbooks lead you to conclude that leaving springs loaded for extended periods doesn't weaken them.
Someone else tested whether or not storing a spring powered air rifle cocked weakened the springs over time and found a 25% reduction in velocity after 12 weeks.
It is a fact that storing springs under load does weaken them. Whether or not that would actually ever lead to a malfunction is another question and dependent on a lot of factors.
I'd love to know the mechanism by which not keeping a spring loaded could damage the spring/be detrimental to it's lifespan. Please enlighten me further with your pseudo-scientific knowledge.
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I have a new Wolff firing pin spring for a Remington Model 7. I got it a few months ago and it was stronger than I wanted. I put a bolt thru it and compressed it to almost coil bind. I checked is a couple of times at 2-3 week intervals and there was no change. I will check it again if I ever think of it when I'm at the shop or whenever I finish the rifle. I'm hoping it does weaken some.
Study the model of 1917. I had one but forget how it worked. The firing pin is not sticking out when cycling because a CRF cannot feed f the case head doesn’t slide up the bolt face under the extractor.
I guess you should review firearms safety. Because no one should have a bad day unless you can't hit your target.
- Always treat the gun as loaded.
- Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
- Always keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
- Always keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
- Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy.
- Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
- Learn the mechanical and handling characteristics of the gun you are using.
- Always use proper Ammunition.
- Be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before loading and shooting.
- If your gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled, hold your shooting position for several seconds; then with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, carefully unload the gun.
- Don't rely on the gun's safety to keep it from firing.
- Be aware of your surroundings when handling guns so you don't trip or lose your balance and accidentally point and/or fire the gun at anyone or anything.
The firing pin spring is made to be under static pressure for long periods of time as they will be when carried (service weapons, cc, oc and hunting) otherwise you'd be replacing your firing pin spring often.
First, specifics on what rifles you are talking about helps. Not all cock on close rifles are the same.
On my Swedes (Gustavs and Huskys) it's an inertial thing. The point of the firing pin is flush with the bolt face when static. The firing pin spring is only long enough to keep it there and is retained on the firing pin itself. During the firing motion the tip protrudes through the firing pin hole through inertia. it is stopped by a shoulder on the pin back from the point. The tip will not protrude further out than the bolt face shroud. So, even if the shoulder did wear the tip would still be protected. The tip retracts after the firing strike as the spring that is retained around the firing pin. And the spring is mostly at static rest then.
Firing pin protrusion is a non-issue. If the bolt is closed on chamber with a live round, and the sear has failed to engage on a COC action, the firing pin is under very little compression. Upon chambering, the case simply pushes the firing pin back flush with the bolt face. Same thing happens with a COO action if you hold the trigger down when closing the bolt on a live round. You could drop a rifle in this condition (round chambered, sear disengaged with FP up against the primer) from 15ft up, have it land on its buttplate, and there still wouldn't be enough inertia to move the firing pin enough to set off a primer. Remington tested, and demonstrated this with some of their earlier actions. This discussion is moot.
And yes, removing the bolt for storage is unnecessary and just asking for it to get lost or misplaced. Never mind putting the wrong bolt in the wrong rifle....
And yes, removing the bolt for storage is unnecessary and just asking for it to get lost or misplaced. Never mind putting the wrong bolt in the wrong rifle....
I always swap the firing pins when I store the guns. Looks right, you’d need a micrometer to see it, but the gun don’t shoot.
Only time the bolt used to come out of my action was when it was being cleaned or when I put it in the hard case, since I made a nice little cutout for the bolt in my old foam.
Then I took my rifle hunting. Hiked a mile or so and hauled myself 30 feet up into the deer stand, carrying 25 pounds of gun the whole way because I was stupid and didn't remove the weight kit. Set up the rifle on the rail and went to chamber a round so I'd be ready, when I realized I left the damn bolt behind in the hard case.
Now the bolt only comes out for cleaning, and my new case foam does not have a separate bolt cutout.
Then I took my rifle hunting. Hiked a mile or so and hauled myself 30 feet up into the deer stand, carrying 25 pounds of gun the whole way because I was stupid and didn't remove the weight kit. Set up the rifle on the rail and went to chamber a round so I'd be ready, when I realized I left the damn bolt behind in the hard case.
Now the bolt only comes out for cleaning, and my new case foam does not have a separate bolt cutout.
Interesting. That makes sense. That seems like a very elegant and simple solution. I wasn't asking about any specific gun. I am interested in hearing about any mechanisms people know of in cock on close actions that stop the firing pin head from protruding when not cocked.
One potential flaw I see what the design you mentioned is that you could potentially have an out of battery discharge if you dropped the rifle hard enough on its muzzle when feeding a round. This is extremely unlikely to happen though especially if the rifle is push feed...In that case it would be virtually impossible.
It could fire if you let the bolt down on a live cartridge without firing it. That would mean having to intentionally lower the firing pin on a live round. And, the force required to push the firing pin would have to be quite excessive as to stretch the spring to firing position it is many pounds on a short stroke upon ounces of pin.
In short, you would have to do two intentional acts to make that happen.
I didn't mean in the chamber. I meant when feeding a round, if it is controlled feed (with the back of the cartridge in contact with the bolt face when feeding), but as you point out the force required to make that happen would be excessive. You could probably drop it out of an airplane, let it hit the ground at terminal velocity and that still wouldn't happen. If it is push feed then it basically could never happen.
Show of hands. Who's ever had a rifle fail to operate properly because they didn't take the time to make sure it was properly relieved of spring tension during storage.....
Thought so.
Thought so.
Show of hands for everyone who believes in misrepresenting what someone else is saying in order to try to make their point while simultaneously continuing to beat a dead horse.
Like I've said before I take 5 seconds a year to rotate the back of my bolt 90 degrees and relieve the tension on my firing pin spring. It's a HOWA 1500 bolt, you don't need any tools to do it and saying it takes 5 seconds is no doubt an exaggeration. I never claimed it would cause a gun to malfunction and I've literally spent more time explaining this minor point to people on this forum than I would have spent doing this in my entire lifetime.
I really wonder why people care so much about this and seem to be sitting at home seething at the thought of someone daring to remove tension on their firing pin spring when storing it their rifle for long periods of time. I really don't care if you do it or not. I couldn't possibly care less.
It isn't the point of the thread. It was merely an explanation of what prompted my actual question but apparently it was such a controversial topic that it took over the entire thread and I have dozens of grown men writing angry posts about it. The internet is hilarious.
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This response is dripping with irony, since you asked questions I (and others) already answered earlier (and apparently didn't read). Somehow, I don't think you're really interested in answers, and are more interested in dialog...
Me.
It then went off and sent me back in time 173 years to where I am now, posting to you guys.
Thats why I always fucking know everything; I'm from the future.
I'm not interested in further discussions about the dead horse topic of how to store your bolt action rifle. I do appreciate the responses to the actual topic of the thread. I do think it is pretty ironic you saying I'm the one looking for dialogue when you literally just responded to a post addressed to someone else.
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My response was a subtle way to remind you that your question about COC actions and potential accidental detonation of a round in the chamber was incorrect, and unfounded. Also, that it had been answered, several times. Finally, your question about accidental detonation when feeding a round, clearly shows you have no idea how a firearm works.
All of which implies you either are an idiot, or you just want attention. Now, in my “father” voice I used to use when my kids were still kids, let me say “If you want some attention, you’re about to get it”.
You’re approaching “askhole” status...
