Most of my shooting involves hunting...and most of my hunting happens in cold weather. My rifle is zeroed before each season and rechecked occasionally...but my first cold round is always a bit disobedient. Not a whole lot, say an inch or so...and I know in a hunting application that's not the end of the world...but any suggestions on being prepared for that first flyer?
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Cold round zero
- Thread starter dday1991
- Start date
Re: Cold round zero
Is it consistent? Can you hold for it? What distances are you hunting? Some say that the "cold bore effect" is real and reproducible. Others say that it is more of a "cold shooter" than a cold bore. You could "snap in" before you head to the field. You could try to hold off for the "flyer." Or, you could realize that the vitals of deer sized game are in excess of 10" in diameter and a 1" variance is not going to mean the difference between a good hit and a wound/miss.
Is it consistent? Can you hold for it? What distances are you hunting? Some say that the "cold bore effect" is real and reproducible. Others say that it is more of a "cold shooter" than a cold bore. You could "snap in" before you head to the field. You could try to hold off for the "flyer." Or, you could realize that the vitals of deer sized game are in excess of 10" in diameter and a 1" variance is not going to mean the difference between a good hit and a wound/miss.
Re: Cold round zero
I guess I need to start recording the cold round. It just happens so infrequently. Waiting for a cold barrel at the range can get boring.....
I guess I need to start recording the cold round. It just happens so infrequently. Waiting for a cold barrel at the range can get boring.....
Re: Cold round zero
Their are so many thing can effect the first round down a clean cold barrel alone with the temp outside.? Do you buy you ammo or roll your own ammo.How often do you clean you barrel.If you buy ammo do make sure you get the same lot numbers. So many ? to ask.But if your just hunting and not long range shooting, do not think on it to much
.If you plan on hunting long range and shooting up to 1000yd and farther
.Then I would suggest you reload your self and go to the other sections on the hide.
Their are so many thing can effect the first round down a clean cold barrel alone with the temp outside.? Do you buy you ammo or roll your own ammo.How often do you clean you barrel.If you buy ammo do make sure you get the same lot numbers. So many ? to ask.But if your just hunting and not long range shooting, do not think on it to much
Re: Cold round zero
Hopefully, your cold bore shot will be the same every time, allowing you to take it into account. I have seen rifles that are hit or miss on the cold bore, but I have also seen many that are dead on whether it is cold bore, or with a string of shots down the tube.
Hopefully, your cold bore shot will be the same every time, allowing you to take it into account. I have seen rifles that are hit or miss on the cold bore, but I have also seen many that are dead on whether it is cold bore, or with a string of shots down the tube.
Re: Cold round zero
Do you keep a log book? Log your first round on the range as the cold bore shot overtime look for the tendency or average POI error. Understand cold bore vs. clean cold bore, I suggest you keep your rifle functionally clean but the bore fouled especially just before the season begins. I have seen hunters before the season pound through a box or two of ammo, adjusting sights as they go. They then clean the barrel and are back to square one from a fouled barrel zero. Also as posted already you the shooter being cold is a major part of it.
Do you keep a log book? Log your first round on the range as the cold bore shot overtime look for the tendency or average POI error. Understand cold bore vs. clean cold bore, I suggest you keep your rifle functionally clean but the bore fouled especially just before the season begins. I have seen hunters before the season pound through a box or two of ammo, adjusting sights as they go. They then clean the barrel and are back to square one from a fouled barrel zero. Also as posted already you the shooter being cold is a major part of it.
Re: Cold round zero
I have experience with cold fouled bore shots going off call to a consistent place on target. My score book reveals it. The effect with a rifle I am shooting now is less than a minute. For competitions, being aware of things like this and other things that effect trajectory I can counter for such effects; but, the only place where I have found a counter might be necessary for this sort of thing is in the 600 yard EIC event. For most shooting on hit or miss targets I doubt the average "marksman" could discern cold bore divergence from a string of fire since a multitude of other shooter errors will likely mask any cold bore effect unless the barrel is truly defective.
I have experience with cold fouled bore shots going off call to a consistent place on target. My score book reveals it. The effect with a rifle I am shooting now is less than a minute. For competitions, being aware of things like this and other things that effect trajectory I can counter for such effects; but, the only place where I have found a counter might be necessary for this sort of thing is in the 600 yard EIC event. For most shooting on hit or miss targets I doubt the average "marksman" could discern cold bore divergence from a string of fire since a multitude of other shooter errors will likely mask any cold bore effect unless the barrel is truly defective.
Re: Cold round zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have experience with cold fouled bore shots going off call to a consistent place on target. My score book reveals it.</div></div>So do I, with one single rifle. It's rare, but I have seen it happen with two rifles to date.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but, the only place where I have found a counter might be necessary for this sort of thing is in the 600 yard EIC event.</div></div>If it's a consistent deviation you must account for it every time in order to hit your point of aim.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For most shooting on hit or miss targets I doubt the average "marksman" could discern cold bore divergence from a string of fire since a multitude of other shooter errors will likely mask any cold bore effect unless the barrel is truly defective.</div></div>It doesn not take above-average ability to discover a cold bore deviation and it has nothing to do with a defective barrel. My rifle has a .4 Mil first-shot deviation and it is probably the second most accurate rifle I own - with plenty of good barrel remaining. What you are describing is the change in zero affected by the shooter as a long stage of shooting begins. I have seen student zeroes change at the end of the first day after a hundred rounds of shooting. That's something different than a cold-bore shift.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have experience with cold fouled bore shots going off call to a consistent place on target. My score book reveals it.</div></div>So do I, with one single rifle. It's rare, but I have seen it happen with two rifles to date.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but, the only place where I have found a counter might be necessary for this sort of thing is in the 600 yard EIC event.</div></div>If it's a consistent deviation you must account for it every time in order to hit your point of aim.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For most shooting on hit or miss targets I doubt the average "marksman" could discern cold bore divergence from a string of fire since a multitude of other shooter errors will likely mask any cold bore effect unless the barrel is truly defective.</div></div>It doesn not take above-average ability to discover a cold bore deviation and it has nothing to do with a defective barrel. My rifle has a .4 Mil first-shot deviation and it is probably the second most accurate rifle I own - with plenty of good barrel remaining. What you are describing is the change in zero affected by the shooter as a long stage of shooting begins. I have seen student zeroes change at the end of the first day after a hundred rounds of shooting. That's something different than a cold-bore shift.
Re: Cold round zero
Cold Bore shots are common in hunting....i leave hunting rifle outside during hunting season...with bore dirty......1 week before the opener.... i shoot 1 shot each day....that`ll give you the answer you want.....
bill larson
Cold Bore shots are common in hunting....i leave hunting rifle outside during hunting season...with bore dirty......1 week before the opener.... i shoot 1 shot each day....that`ll give you the answer you want.....
bill larson
Re: Cold round zero
The only way to know how much difference there is between a cold bore shot and a warm bore is with a chrono. Your first shot can be 100fps or more slower it just depends on the rifle. The caliber and velocity determine how much that 100fps or so moves your point of impact on a percentage basis. You can chrono one or two cold bore rounds and chrono a few warm bore rounds and get a pretty good idea without turning it into a long drawn out testing affair. On most hunting caliber rifles at normal factory ammo velocities, 1"-2" at 100 yards is typically the difference. Ideally on a hunting rifle you would zero your scope for the cold bore round and elimnate it as an issue. Good luck and good hunting.
The only way to know how much difference there is between a cold bore shot and a warm bore is with a chrono. Your first shot can be 100fps or more slower it just depends on the rifle. The caliber and velocity determine how much that 100fps or so moves your point of impact on a percentage basis. You can chrono one or two cold bore rounds and chrono a few warm bore rounds and get a pretty good idea without turning it into a long drawn out testing affair. On most hunting caliber rifles at normal factory ammo velocities, 1"-2" at 100 yards is typically the difference. Ideally on a hunting rifle you would zero your scope for the cold bore round and elimnate it as an issue. Good luck and good hunting.
Re: Cold round zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have experience with cold fouled bore shots going off call to a consistent place on target. My score book reveals it.</div></div>So do I, with one single rifle. It's rare, but I have seen it happen with two rifles to date.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but, the only place where I have found a counter might be necessary for this sort of thing is in the 600 yard EIC event.</div></div>If it's a consistent deviation you must account for it every time in order to hit your point of aim.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For most shooting on hit or miss targets I doubt the average "marksman" could discern cold bore divergence from a string of fire since a multitude of other shooter errors will likely mask any cold bore effect unless the barrel is truly defective.</div></div>It doesn not take above-average ability to discover a cold bore deviation and it has nothing to do with a defective barrel. My rifle has a .4 Mil first-shot deviation and it is probably the second most accurate rifle I own - with plenty of good barrel remaining. What you are describing is the change in zero affected by the shooter as a long stage of shooting begins. I have seen student zeroes change at the end of the first day after a hundred rounds of shooting. That's something different than a cold-bore shift. </div></div>
I disagree with most everything you said.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have experience with cold fouled bore shots going off call to a consistent place on target. My score book reveals it.</div></div>So do I, with one single rifle. It's rare, but I have seen it happen with two rifles to date.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but, the only place where I have found a counter might be necessary for this sort of thing is in the 600 yard EIC event.</div></div>If it's a consistent deviation you must account for it every time in order to hit your point of aim.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For most shooting on hit or miss targets I doubt the average "marksman" could discern cold bore divergence from a string of fire since a multitude of other shooter errors will likely mask any cold bore effect unless the barrel is truly defective.</div></div>It doesn not take above-average ability to discover a cold bore deviation and it has nothing to do with a defective barrel. My rifle has a .4 Mil first-shot deviation and it is probably the second most accurate rifle I own - with plenty of good barrel remaining. What you are describing is the change in zero affected by the shooter as a long stage of shooting begins. I have seen student zeroes change at the end of the first day after a hundred rounds of shooting. That's something different than a cold-bore shift. </div></div>
I disagree with most everything you said.
Re: Cold round zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TxShooter63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only way to know how much difference there is between a cold bore shot and a warm bore is with a chrono. Your first shot can be 100fps or more slower it just depends on the rifle. The caliber and velocity determine how much that 100fps or so moves your point of impact on a percentage basis. You can chrono one or two cold bore rounds and chrono a few warm bore rounds and get a pretty good idea without turning it into a long drawn out testing affair. On most hunting caliber rifles at normal factory ammo velocities, 1"-2" at 100 yards is typically the difference. Ideally on a hunting rifle you would zero your scope for the cold bore round and elimnate it as an issue. Good luck and good hunting. </div></div>
I don't need a chrono to understand; but, a shooter does need to be able to correctly analyze shooter/target error.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TxShooter63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only way to know how much difference there is between a cold bore shot and a warm bore is with a chrono. Your first shot can be 100fps or more slower it just depends on the rifle. The caliber and velocity determine how much that 100fps or so moves your point of impact on a percentage basis. You can chrono one or two cold bore rounds and chrono a few warm bore rounds and get a pretty good idea without turning it into a long drawn out testing affair. On most hunting caliber rifles at normal factory ammo velocities, 1"-2" at 100 yards is typically the difference. Ideally on a hunting rifle you would zero your scope for the cold bore round and elimnate it as an issue. Good luck and good hunting. </div></div>
I don't need a chrono to understand; but, a shooter does need to be able to correctly analyze shooter/target error.
Re: Cold round zero
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....i leave hunting rifle outside during hunting season...with bore dirty......</div></div>That was my problem: I should have left a 'dirty' rifle in four provinces, in three countries on two continents.
Seriously, though, doing that is not necessary.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I disagree with most everything you said. </div></div>Dean Michaelis saw the student shift too, and thought enough of the phenomena to mention it in his book. I defer to him because he confirmed it for me and he has taught far more students than I have.
With regard to the one-in-ten rifle deviation, Lindy's AE has it, too. I trust Lindy's analysis on almost anything mechanical, electrical and mathematical, and I miss his contributions here.
Seeking corroboration for what was happening, I took my rifle on a visit to Frank and had him confirm that it's not a shooter issue. Here's a previous thread with more discussion about it, which features the target he shot with my rifle that shows the mechanical 'walking' on warm-up:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2514702
TxShooter you are substantially correct: Most of any cold bore deviation on a very cold day is due to a substantial decrease in ammunition temperature, and therefore in muzzle velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....i leave hunting rifle outside during hunting season...with bore dirty......</div></div>That was my problem: I should have left a 'dirty' rifle in four provinces, in three countries on two continents.
With regard to the one-in-ten rifle deviation, Lindy's AE has it, too. I trust Lindy's analysis on almost anything mechanical, electrical and mathematical, and I miss his contributions here.
Seeking corroboration for what was happening, I took my rifle on a visit to Frank and had him confirm that it's not a shooter issue. Here's a previous thread with more discussion about it, which features the target he shot with my rifle that shows the mechanical 'walking' on warm-up:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2514702
TxShooter you are substantially correct: Most of any cold bore deviation on a very cold day is due to a substantial decrease in ammunition temperature, and therefore in muzzle velocity.
Re: Cold round zero
Graham, I gotta hand it to you.
You sure know how to make a response in an articulate and concise manner. Especially when you instill 'witness' and example, too. Not to mention, substantiating evidence.
One would think you were a lawyer or something.
On a serious note, I too miss Lindy, and a few others too.
But for backing up your thoughts, views, and experiences to others whom may not have the same degree of "couth" and/or dignity in such a manner is something that is needed both more-so, and at the same time, all-too-often around here lately.
Good post.
Graham, I gotta hand it to you.
You sure know how to make a response in an articulate and concise manner. Especially when you instill 'witness' and example, too. Not to mention, substantiating evidence.
One would think you were a lawyer or something.
On a serious note, I too miss Lindy, and a few others too.
But for backing up your thoughts, views, and experiences to others whom may not have the same degree of "couth" and/or dignity in such a manner is something that is needed both more-so, and at the same time, all-too-often around here lately.
Good post.
Re: Cold round zero
Graham you're going back in time quite a bit, we've learned a thing or two since your examples.
It one thing to diagnose a problem on the range, it's another to actually put wrench to the problem.
In the last year having access to several AE many with the reported problem, we've taken to adjusting torque values on both the barrels and actions and have found in most cases you can fix the problem noted, the cold bore deviate. This was not done to this degree before, instead everyone simply went back to published values.
By adjusting the values, we found you could eliminate the problem.
Now, poor threading, a bad barrel, all valid mechanical issues, but in this case, I have tested and corrected at least 6 AEs with the reported problem. But it does require you take it completely apart.
Graham you're going back in time quite a bit, we've learned a thing or two since your examples.
It one thing to diagnose a problem on the range, it's another to actually put wrench to the problem.
In the last year having access to several AE many with the reported problem, we've taken to adjusting torque values on both the barrels and actions and have found in most cases you can fix the problem noted, the cold bore deviate. This was not done to this degree before, instead everyone simply went back to published values.
By adjusting the values, we found you could eliminate the problem.
Now, poor threading, a bad barrel, all valid mechanical issues, but in this case, I have tested and corrected at least 6 AEs with the reported problem. But it does require you take it completely apart.
