Cold Welded Bullets in Neck

[BrienM]

I am curious of some thoughts on bullets "cold welding" in the necks of handloaded ammo and why it doesn't seem to have the same effect on factory ammo. Is it caused by the fouling of previous firing? Could it be avoided by wet tumbling? Could it be avoided by using "coated" bullets?
I usually try to wait till the week or two before a match to load ammo just to keep it fresh as possible but how could one handload and store for extended periods of time without getting the bullet reacting to the neck? I had some hunting ammo I had loaded several years ago, when I put it in the seating die to "bump" it and break that "weld" it made a pretty loud crack..

 

[Newbie2020]

Are you lubing the inside of the case?

 

[BrienM]

I do not lube inside neck from fear of getting my powder stuck to it or damp.

 

[Newbie2020]

Some guys lube the bullets and some swab lube the inside of the neck

 

[918v]

Factory ammo is covered in wax. There is a layer of wax between the bullet and the neck.

 

[BrienM]

@918v Any idea what kind of wax?
@Newbie2020 I have heard of guys using different lubes in neck.

 

[ACard]

Imperial sizing wax

 

[CoryT]

Best solution for hand loaders is Imperial dry neck lube, NOT the case sizing wax. It will not contaminate power or cause kernels to stick to the neck, being powdered graphite it's the same as what's on the powder already. The ceramic media makes for easy consistent application, as opposed to the wax, which you will never get evenly applied.

The problem occurs when the metal of the case neck and the bullet are VERY clean. Fired cases that are lightly dry tumbled still have enough carbon inside the neck to be trouble free, but wet tumbled in SS media really need some kind of lube applied. Annealing can be an issue, brushing followed by neck lube fixes that as well.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

If u anneal, u need to tumble in corn cob or walnut media for a good amount of time unless u brush the ID of the necks. Ive got 200 rounds that shoot like shit from annealing and tumbling for 30 min or so. I pulled bullets, dumped powder, brushed necks, replaced powder and bullet and they go back to 1 hole. Had I tumbled for a few hours, there wouldn't have been an issue. Lesson learned

 

[RTH1800]

If you don’t care to lube necks you can “long seat” the bullets and then final seat just before match.
Also, when shooting ammo loaded long ago you should give the bullets a slight bump just prior to shooting. At times welding is so solid the shoulder is crushed. Dispose of that ammo.
I have torn down old reloaded ammo that was absolutely full of corrosion all the way back to welding the primer in. Wish I had photos . Shocking.

 

[BrienM]

I don't anneal or wet tumble. I have not even been running the brass through the tumbler unless we get caught out in wet conditions so as to corrode my brass. So much mis-information and different information, it is hard to tell for sure what way is best to anneal and clean brass. Several friends have there way of accomplishing it. My results are fine but I would like to be able to load ammo for future and not worry about it "sticking".

 

[RTH1800]

Use bullet bump process is most simple.

 

[supercorndogs]

If u anneal, u need to tumble in corn cob or walnut media for a good amount of time unless u brush the ID of the necks. Ive got 200 rounds that shoot like shit from annealing and tumbling for 30 min or so. I pulled bullets, dumped powder, brushed necks, replaced powder and bullet and they go back to 1 hole. Had I tumbled for a few hours, there wouldn't have been an issue. Lesson learned

Even if you lube necks, this still. Brush them out. I never trust tumbling anymore.

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

If u anneal, u need to tumble in corn cob or walnut media for a good amount of time unless u brush the ID of the necks. Ive got 200 rounds that shoot like shit from annealing and tumbling for 30 min or so. I pulled bullets, dumped powder, brushed necks, replaced powder and bullet and they go back to 1 hole. Had I tumbled for a few hours, there wouldn't have been an issue. Lesson learned

Good info. I read somewhere else that if you anneal that it produces a small amount of carbon in the neck and also correlated to loaded ammo. I have never annealed so I can’t compare.

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

I am curious of some thoughts on bullets "cold welding" in the necks of handloaded ammo and why it doesn't seem to have the same effect on factory ammo. Is it caused by the fouling of previous firing? Could it be avoided by wet tumbling? Could it be avoided by using "coated" bullets?
I usually try to wait till the week or two before a match to load ammo just to keep it fresh as possible but how could one handload and store for extended periods of time without getting the bullet reacting to the neck? I had some hunting ammo I had loaded several years ago, when I put it in the seating die to "bump" it and break that "weld" it made a pretty loud crack..

I have a 6 creedmoor throated for 105’s that is too short for factory hornady 108’s. I grabbed a couple boxes of factory hornady and seated them deeper and the seating pressure was definitely different between the rounds. Not sure if factory ammo uses any lube or not but could tell a difference in the 2 boxes I did.

 

[BrienM]

I keep thinking the boron nitride Dave Tubb bullet coating would keep it "insulated" from corroding.

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

I keep thinking the boron nitride Dave Tubb bullet coating would keep it "insulated" from corroding.

Could work. I used tbn to coat some bullets for my 6.5x47 and didn’t notice any change in sd until the bore seemed to get coated from the bullets and after about 15-20 rds the so dropped by 30% ish.

I wonder if ammo makers have an advantage and also when using virgin brass that the neck has already oxidized or corroded and made its own barrier against the bullet. When I reload I usually am in a hurry and try to get it all done as fast as possible and reload out of the tumbler.

 

[BrienM]

There again, the un-answerable questions is why I wait till the week or two before to load. I would love to setup and load a long term supply of hunting rounds but I find myself waiting till season is almost in or, in times past loading the day before...

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

Only one way to get to the bottom of this...
Everyone send me your lapua brass, primers, powder and bullets and I’ll do a test to see if fresh ammo vs stored ammo have any effect on accuracy or ES.

On second thought, send me loaded ammo too so I can compare.

 

[918v]

@918v Any idea what kind of wax?
@Newbie2020 I have heard of guys using different lubes in neck.

I’m guessing carnuba. Don’t use case lube to lube the inside it’s just too slick.

I use imperial graphite dry lube. It’s easy to apply and does the job.

 

[BrienM]

Sometimes, certain bullets feel like they have a bit of a waxy or oily coating to them but it seems like it is inconsistent to me.

 

[8up]

I remember reading about this in the past and not following up on it. Wondering if anything new has developed about this.

I have not experienced any cold weld. I live in high desert at 5500' elevation. Wet clean with stainless media and anneal. I usually annealed after cleaning. Using this process, I have found after a period of time, the brass color would darken like a spent casing left out on the range.

After reading about this a while back, tried using car wash soap with carnauba wax, and no more darkening, and annealed brass before cleaning. I could tell the difference in cases being slick unlike before, and no more discoloration.

I don't know if sea level or less humid high altitude load process has any effect on this cold weld. Some bullets I have handled have a coat of something as they are slick, some others are not and do begin to discolor over time.

So, leads me to believe most components are coated with something depending on the manufacturer. Just trying to understand and trying to avoid a cold weld problem on my process.

 

[BrienM]

I remember reading about this in the past and not following up on it. Wondering if anything new has developed about this.

I have not experienced any cold weld. I live in high desert at 5500' elevation. Wet clean with stainless media and anneal. I usually annealed after cleaning. Using this process, I have found after a period of time, the brass color would darken like a spent casing left out on the range.

After reading about this a while back, tried using car wash soap with carnauba wax, and no more darkening, and annealed brass before cleaning. I could tell the difference in cases being slick unlike before, and no more discoloration.

I don't know if sea level or less humid high altitude load process has any effect on this cold weld. Some bullets I have handled have a coat of something as they are slick, some others are not and do begin to discolor over time.

So, leads me to believe most components are coated with something depending on the manufacturer. Just trying to understand and trying to avoid a cold weld problem on my process.

Same here....

 

[Holliday]

I use imperial graphite dry lube. It’s easy to apply and does the job.

How do you apply it? Just dunk the case neck in the ceramic bead/graphite mix before powder charge?

 

[918v]

First you dump out half the ceramic beads so you can shake the container and properly distribute the graphite. Then you dunk the necks in the beads a bunch of times to get enough graphite inside the neck. Then you wipe the graphite off the outside the neck and then charge the case.

 

[IronOperator87]

Somewhere on here I read about people using NuFinish car polish in their tumblers. Makes sense that this could work. Anyone still do this?

 

[mustang-cars]

Somewhere on here I read about people using NuFinish car polish in their tumblers. Makes sense that this could work. Anyone still do this?

I use NuFinish. I place a couple cap fulls in the tumbler every so often. Run the tumbler for an hour without brass to distribute the NuFinish. Then add brass and tumble. It helps clean the brass and I do believe that it leaves an even lite coating of wax in the neck which provides for silky smooth seating. I only add NuFinish every couple of times I run 500 pieces through. So I about every 10-15 hours of tumbling. I do notice that in between each 100 round batches the wax distribution is slightly different due to the wax dissipating over time. I’ve put a Dillon CV-2001 on back order some time ago to alleviate this so I can do a lot of 500 pieces of brass all at once and maintain more consistency.

 

[IronOperator87]

I use NuFinish. I place a couple cap fulls in the tumbler every so often. Run the tumbler for an hour without brass to distribute the NuFinish. Then add brass and tumble. It helps clean the brass and I do believe that it leaves an even lite coating of wax in the neck which provides for silky smooth seating. I only add NuFinish every couple of times I run 500 pieces through. So I about every 10-15 hours of tumbling. I do notice that in between each 100 round batches the wax distribution is slightly different due to the wax dissipating over time. I’ve put a Dillon CV-2001 on back order some time ago to alleviate this so I can do a lot of 500 pieces of brass all at once and maintain more consistency.

Have you tried to pull or seat bullets deeper after leaving them sit for an extended period of time?

 

[mustang-cars]

Have you tried to pull or seat bullets deeper after leaving them sit for an extended period of time?

No I haven’t. I have not conducted any testing. I do have some hunting ammo that’s been sitting around for quite sometime. Maybe I will test that out this week!

 

[Mr_Happyface]

Best solution for hand loaders is Imperial dry neck lube, NOT the case sizing wax. It will not contaminate power or cause kernels to stick to the neck, being powdered graphite it's the same as what's on the powder already. The ceramic media makes for easy consistent application, as opposed to the wax, which you will never get evenly applied.

The problem occurs when the metal of the case neck and the bullet are VERY clean. Fired cases that are lightly dry tumbled still have enough carbon inside the neck to be trouble free, but wet tumbled in SS media really need some kind of lube applied. Annealing can be an issue, brushing followed by neck lube fixes that as well.

This is the answer as told to me by a multiple world record holder.

I ultrasonic clean, anneal, resize, then give the throat a few pokes into an imperial dry lube tin with beads, and then add powder and bullet.

Inexpensive, quick, and relatively clean.

Go this route.

 

[Bmghunter]

So my range trip yesterday yielded poor results in SD. The load was reloder 26 on a 270 win with berger 170 eols. These were loaded about a month ago using wet tumbled with ss media brass with no lube before bullet seating. SDs were in the 20s and es in the 60s. Extremely inconsistent imo.

My prior loads were using hammer hh bullets with reloder 16 and sds were in the single digits. Also wet tumbled.

My next test will be to dry lube the neck before seating the bullets to see if SDs get better.

My guess is that the berger 170 eols are cold welding or the lack of lube is causing the bullet to release inconsistently, and I hope the neck lube helps fix this.

The reason the HH bullets might not be affected by this issue is that their drag reducing function bearing surface is not conducive to cold welding and let's the bullet release much more consistently.

I will test my theory out in a few months probably.

 

[KnowNothing256]

First you dump out half the ceramic beads so you can shake the container and properly distribute the graphite. Then you dunk the necks in the beads a bunch of times to get enough graphite inside the neck. Then you wipe the graphite off the outside the neck and then charge the case.

Has anyone tried dunking the bullet bases instead to avoid the neck wiping step? Loading ammo takes long enough as it is, any little time saver helps imo.

 

[918v]

It’s hard to hold on to the bullet nose while dunking the bullet shank.

 

[proff49]

I tried it. With smaller bullets (308,264) it's hard to keep it on the bullet ond off your fingers.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I tried it. With smaller bullets (308,264) it's hard to keep it on the bullet ond off your fingers.

*sigh* One more step to the process, awesome

Thanks for the feedback on prior experience; same to you, @918v

 

[demolitionman]

Firing the case causes fine carbon build up to be distributed evenly around the inside of the neck. Imo, this is the best lube you can get. Also this is why I don’t tumble. I wipe my brass down with a shop towel if it’s dirty, and if I suspect any debris inside the case from the ground I’ll blow the cases out with compressed air(usually I skip this step). Just another way to skin a cat I guess.

 

[BrienM]

@demolitionman​

Do you think that carbon lubrication would be sufficient to avoid "Cold Weld" ?

 

[supercorndogs]

I don't think the carbon left over from powder makes a very good lubricant, considering what it does to expander balls.

I have had bullets bonded to necks of cases I did not tumble.

 

[demolitionman]

@demolitionman​

Do you think that carbon lubrication would be sufficient to avoid "Cold Weld" ?

I have absolutely no idea; so I reckon my input to this thread is moot. I will add; I shot some reloads that were 6 years old this past weekend and was able to shoot shotgun clays at 600 yards fairly easily once I doped the wind.... so not sure if the necks had cold welded or not but i didn’t check sd/es.

 

[XLR308]

I do not lube inside neck from fear of getting my powder stuck to it or damp.

Get a tube of Lee sizng paste, it wont contaminate powder and is the best sizing lube i have ever used.

 

[Maxduty]

I didn't do anything special to the 3006 hunting ammo I created 13 years ago. It still shoots fine, but I've never checked for weld.

 

[XLR308]

I didn't do anything special to the 3006 hunting ammo I created 13 years ago. It still shoots fine, but I've never checked for weld.

Having a bit of carbon in the neck is benificial.
Wet tumbling brass to near pristine condistion is not optimal and can cause problems if not compensated for.

 

[demolitionman]

If I were tumbling I would make sure to get an even spray of Hornady one shot into the case mouths as well as on the case bodies.

 

[KnowNothing256]

If I were tumbling I would make sure to get an even spray of Hornady one shot into the case mouths as well as on the case bodies.

This is what I do, just to go easy on my expander mandrel, haven’t checked old loads to see if they’ve welded tho.

 

[Bmghunter]

So my range trip yesterday yielded poor results in SD. The load was reloder 26 on a 270 win with berger 170 eols. These were loaded about a month ago using wet tumbled with ss media brass with no lube before bullet seating. SDs were in the 20s and es in the 60s. Extremely inconsistent imo.

My prior loads were using hammer hh bullets with reloder 16 and sds were in the single digits. Also wet tumbled.

My next test will be to dry lube the neck before seating the bullets to see if SDs get better.

My guess is that the berger 170 eols are cold welding or the lack of lube is causing the bullet to release inconsistently, and I hope the neck lube helps fix this.

The reason the HH bullets might not be affected by this issue is that their drag reducing function bearing surface is not conducive to cold welding and let's the bullet release much more consistently.

I will test my theory out in a few months probably.

Well I ended up testing this theory today and it failed miserably.
Same batch of brass, not annealed, neck sized using Lee Collet die. Neck tension is approximate .02 using a gauge. Used Graphite lube on the case necks.
Today's ES and SD showed no improvement from the last batch which did not have any graphite neck lube and was bone dry from wet tumbling.

Same powder, same brass, same primer, same case of bullets, same brass prep, everything is the same except the neck lube.
Last batch the ES were from a low of 15 (single set) all the way to a high of 89 (probably average of 60 ES across different 14 charge weights of 5 shot each). Best SD was the 6.5 from that single ES of 15. 4 of the SDs in total were acceptable, 7.7, 7.6, 6.5, and 13.6. Everything else the SDs were ranging from 20 to 35.
Today's batch the ES were between 50 and 80 with 4 groups of 5, charge weights of .1 increments (trying to find max). Only the first group was the same charge as the last batch's highest charge weight. SDs were all from 20s to 30s.

So in conclusion, the dry neck lube did not help with ES or SD. Now I guess I need a thread to ask how to tighten the ES and SD.

 

[BrienM]

That’s Frustrating!!

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Realizing this is a rifle thread, but just in case....

I use NuFinish with pretty decent results. One word of warning, make sure the NuFinish is thoroughly mixed before putting in brass as previously stated. Also, I have found that one should never use NuFinish with 9mm or 45ACP brass. It fills some of the cases with an all but impenetrable and unremovable mass of solid walnut shell and NuFinish. Case ruined.

 

[Steel head]

Firing the case causes fine carbon build up to be distributed evenly around the inside of the neck. Imo, this is the best lube you can get. Also this is why I don’t tumble. I wipe my brass down with a shop towel if it’s dirty, and if I suspect any debris inside the case from the ground I’ll blow the cases out with compressed air(usually I skip this step). Just another way to skin a cat I guess.

I almost never tumble my brass.
I just wipe the off and fine scotchbright the neck and shoulder if they look grungy.
That residual carbon makes consistent ES and SD easy and I don’t see any I’ll effects on the ammo if it was loaded a month before.
I mildly brush the inside of the neck with a nylon brush occasionally.

 

[918v]

Well I ended up testing this theory today and it failed miserably.
Same batch of brass, not annealed, neck sized using Lee Collet die. Neck tension is approximate .02 using a gauge. Used Graphite lube on the case necks.
Today's ES and SD showed no improvement from the last batch which did not have any graphite neck lube and was bone dry from wet tumbling.

Same powder, same brass, same primer, same case of bullets, same brass prep, everything is the same except the neck lube.
Last batch the ES were from a low of 15 (single set) all the way to a high of 89 (probably average of 60 ES across different 14 charge weights of 5 shot each). Best SD was the 6.5 from that single ES of 15. 4 of the SDs in total were acceptable, 7.7, 7.6, 6.5, and 13.6. Everything else the SDs were ranging from 20 to 35.
Today's batch the ES were between 50 and 80 with 4 groups of 5, charge weights of .1 increments (trying to find max). Only the first group was the same charge as the last batch's highest charge weight. SDs were all from 20s to 30s.

So in conclusion, the dry neck lube did not help with ES or SD. Now I guess I need a thread to ask how to tighten the ES and SD.

Do a velocity ladder test.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Do a velocity ladder test.

...he was, wasn’t he? 5-rd groups in 0.1 gr increments, even if he was looking for max