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Colt suspending production... A big FU to Colt!
- Thread starter 10ring1
- Start date
I have no experience with Noveske but I know he was using good FN CHF barrels for some of his rifles and ive never heard anything negative about his guns.
Years ago only HK was using expensive proprietary barrels and bolt material in their AR military rifles. Fast forward and now LWRC, LMT and KAC and Colt Canada(Diemaco) is using some of the same ultra expensive proprietary materials.
Colt is unwilling or incapable of keeping up with this field and relegated to FMS or DLA contracts now and even that field is crowded.
Years ago only HK was using expensive proprietary barrels and bolt material in their AR military rifles. Fast forward and now LWRC, LMT and KAC and Colt Canada(Diemaco) is using some of the same ultra expensive proprietary materials.
Colt is unwilling or incapable of keeping up with this field and relegated to FMS or DLA contracts now and even that field is crowded.
Before John Noveske died tragically, his stuff was cutting edge and especially innovative given his small financial backing. Fanboys may be shocked and appalled to find out his first gen lowers were originally produced by Anderson. What most don't know as they vilify Anderson for being Olympic level quality is that they produced parts and lowers for many popular rollmarks.
Noveske has a proprietary chamber (that works) much like a Wilde. Solve the overpressure of 5.56 and maintain accuracy. His CHF barrels are indeed from FN (like Palmetto too) but using m249-240 barrel steel with a 2x chrome lining thickness. This is for reliability and longevity sacrificing some accuracy. His stainless barrels (I have one) are as accurate as any on the market period. Noveske is, make no mistake, a boutique builder. But what they do works if not over priced. I put them "almost" right there with KAC. They aren't, but they are not as big, not as well financed, don't have John anymore and not as much proprietary stuff as KAC (for better or worse, you decide).
However, from my experience, Noveske lives upto the reputation and should be considered as a tier 1 option even if over priced.
However, for the price of 1 KAC, you can get 2 Noveskes that are certainly 98% of a KAC.
And for the price of one Noveske, you could get 2 Colts. So, one KAC = 4 Colts. Rather have the 4 Colts. (Reminder, I have a KAC SR-15)
On edit: there's only so much one can do with the AR platform before it's not an AR.
See: Sig and HK.
Noveske has a proprietary chamber (that works) much like a Wilde. Solve the overpressure of 5.56 and maintain accuracy. His CHF barrels are indeed from FN (like Palmetto too) but using m249-240 barrel steel with a 2x chrome lining thickness. This is for reliability and longevity sacrificing some accuracy. His stainless barrels (I have one) are as accurate as any on the market period. Noveske is, make no mistake, a boutique builder. But what they do works if not over priced. I put them "almost" right there with KAC. They aren't, but they are not as big, not as well financed, don't have John anymore and not as much proprietary stuff as KAC (for better or worse, you decide).
However, from my experience, Noveske lives upto the reputation and should be considered as a tier 1 option even if over priced.
However, for the price of 1 KAC, you can get 2 Noveskes that are certainly 98% of a KAC.
And for the price of one Noveske, you could get 2 Colts. So, one KAC = 4 Colts. Rather have the 4 Colts. (Reminder, I have a KAC SR-15)
On edit: there's only so much one can do with the AR platform before it's not an AR.
See: Sig and HK.
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My dream rifle?
Sig MPX or HK 416, select fire .300 blackout in 8" suppressed flavor with a Noveske barrel.
For >100 yard engagements, I will keep my Noveske Reece. (Again, I have a SR15).
On edit: in service, I found the SR-25 (M110 for me) somewhat problematic. Good weapon. Accurate. Not the most reliable under austere circumstances. To be objective and fair, one could say some of the issues that I experienced were mag related. Mine was suppressed. Thinking it's more an AR-10 thing overall than KAC in particular. I really wanted to love it. I just didn't. The short dot S&B on it though was spectacular for the day.
That is way ot, forgive me.
Call it Pappy Van Winkle 20 year old induced rambling...
Sig MPX or HK 416, select fire .300 blackout in 8" suppressed flavor with a Noveske barrel.
For >100 yard engagements, I will keep my Noveske Reece. (Again, I have a SR15).
On edit: in service, I found the SR-25 (M110 for me) somewhat problematic. Good weapon. Accurate. Not the most reliable under austere circumstances. To be objective and fair, one could say some of the issues that I experienced were mag related. Mine was suppressed. Thinking it's more an AR-10 thing overall than KAC in particular. I really wanted to love it. I just didn't. The short dot S&B on it though was spectacular for the day.
That is way ot, forgive me.
Call it Pappy Van Winkle 20 year old induced rambling...
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Nah mate, we really do need to stick together in these times!?
Besides, without AJ, it's just not the same.
Funny you mention the SR25/mk11/110 platform. I know they are really good rifles now with all the kinks worked out but never really fell in love with it including mine, unlike my fondness of match m14s/mk14s but thats just me. Its funny the reactions you get from CEOs of major gun companies when you tell them you like M14s over Ar10s. We all have our weakneses
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Looking on the gun threads now everyone is posting their colt rifles for sale, and they are getting sold ASAP. Seriously all you clowns buying overpriced colts are traitors. This company just stopped selling ar 15s to the public and you guys rush and buy this overpriced pos?
I’ll never buy a colt anything again. Any gun company that is anti second will never get my business.
I’ll never buy a colt anything again. Any gun company that is anti second will never get my business.
Colt’s choice has nothing to do with betrayal. They have 130 million in contract orders that is absorbing the 700 rifles they can make a day for the foreseeable future.
Then slow down production and shut up about it. The fact that they made a public announcement, and such a big deal about it is betrayal in itself.
They are obviously milking this as if they are some sort of good guy for no longer selling the evil ar to civilians.
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That, of maybe the lying corporate media is exploiting it to make it seem like a huge loss for the 2A. Judging from some of Colt's other boneheaded management decisions in respect to civilian sales, I'd say it's even odds that they: 1.) didn't expect what they said to buyers at distributors to get leaked to the public; and 2.) didn't anticipate how this could be seen as anti-2A by both the sides of the gun debate.
I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing Colt ARs available for retail sales next summer, during the run up to the 2020 election.
That could be understandable, however Colt make a big announcement themselves to garner that media attention.
They probably believe they are better off continuing to sell the revolvers to the fudds, and ars to leo/military, while gaining favors with banks/investment companies/and the fudd/anti gun public.
The damage to Colt is already done, many people will never buy a Colt product again. It would make no sense for them to make Ar for sale in 2020.
Colt made the announcement in response to the email leak from a sales rep at RSR Group (who subsequently lost his job because of it).
It came after the story was already being circulated by the internet rumor mill, not before.
My understanding is that they notified distributor buyers that there would be a temporary slow down, a buyer at RSR told a rep, then the rep leaked the information to some of his LGS customers, both via phone call and email, probably hoping to boost his sales for the month.
Threads on gun forums took off, TTAG made a blog post calling Colt out, and so Colt was left having to respond.
They should've seen all of that coming, but I'm betting they didn't. Just like they probably didn't expect the MSM to twist a shift to focus on a .Mil contract into some sort of virtue signalling ban on civilian sales of ARs.
The above has been repeated by others, and is not hard to find out if someone is willing to do a little reading, but I suppose it's easier to just believe what CNN says and throw a rage fit aimed at Colt....
And no, I'm not a Colt fan-boy. They have a history of making stupid decisions on the civilian sales side.
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Retro looks cool when Brownels does it.
Retro looks old and sad when Colt does it.
There will always be a contingent of buyers holding onto what Colt was 50, 60, 70 years ago.
If you like the prancing pony, great. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a roll mark on the side of a piece of AL. Colt is sourcing all of their small parts from the same vendors as everyone else. Mil spec bolts and carriers are neither special nor rare. Colt barrels are not magical.
Everyone raves about the 6920, and there is a part of me that wishes I had bought one when Wally World was selling them. But, the majority of me says, "meh, rack grade, non free floated, shitty mil spec trigger, meh charging handle, non ambi safety, blah barrel, non adjustable gas block, I own other rifles I'd rather shoot."
If colt does resurrect civilian sales, will there be someone there to buy? Sure, but I'd wager fewer than there were yesterday- the AR market is not getting less competitive. There's someone out there now saying "Colt won the west, Colt makes the 1911, Colt makes the US military service rifle, etc." Living on past glory, just like Colt.
Retro looks old and sad when Colt does it.
There will always be a contingent of buyers holding onto what Colt was 50, 60, 70 years ago.
If you like the prancing pony, great. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a roll mark on the side of a piece of AL. Colt is sourcing all of their small parts from the same vendors as everyone else. Mil spec bolts and carriers are neither special nor rare. Colt barrels are not magical.
Everyone raves about the 6920, and there is a part of me that wishes I had bought one when Wally World was selling them. But, the majority of me says, "meh, rack grade, non free floated, shitty mil spec trigger, meh charging handle, non ambi safety, blah barrel, non adjustable gas block, I own other rifles I'd rather shoot."
If colt does resurrect civilian sales, will there be someone there to buy? Sure, but I'd wager fewer than there were yesterday- the AR market is not getting less competitive. There's someone out there now saying "Colt won the west, Colt makes the 1911, Colt makes the US military service rifle, etc." Living on past glory, just like Colt.
The CCU Carbine (Midlegth gas, Centurion handguard, etc) and the 901 series small-frame 308/6.5 Creed guns are nice rifles, as is the Trooper. The 901 is even innovative, uses a monolithic upper, and was recently updated to m-lok.
But again, lots of folks don't know about or remember those rifles, and you don't often see them on the shelf in gun stores or in any sort of online advertising.
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Colt's retro guns were overpriced and outsourced. Colt started screwing gun owners by kissing politicians asses back before the '94 AWB with their own "look, it's not so scary" improvements. Fuck them and their large pin lowers with sear blocks. What innovation they brought to the table as they milked contracts with their whole two gas systems. Can you imagine that R&D budget to keep bringing you 1960s technology?
So temporarily halting production is best announced by saying it's stopping. Again, fuck them. Hopefully someday someone pro-2A will buy the brand
But enough about Colt. What about the fanboys they've left in the lurch? OMG, now every internet expert on every forum can't cut and paste "buy an LE6920" into every response to run up a bitchin' post count. I see the sales of BCM and DD increasing already.
And PSA sucks because the last time I HALOed out over the Indian Ocean and SCUBAed to a classified shore their shit broke. I mean they don't even have a weapon in COD.
So temporarily halting production is best announced by saying it's stopping. Again, fuck them. Hopefully someday someone pro-2A will buy the brand
But enough about Colt. What about the fanboys they've left in the lurch? OMG, now every internet expert on every forum can't cut and paste "buy an LE6920" into every response to run up a bitchin' post count. I see the sales of BCM and DD increasing already.
And PSA sucks because the last time I HALOed out over the Indian Ocean and SCUBAed to a classified shore their shit broke. I mean they don't even have a weapon in COD.
Nope. Got 5 colts and have no problem with them. I say a big "FU Colt" for undoubtedly caving to political pressure. They can spin it any way they want, I'm not buying it. It's primarily political and fear of lawsuit if one of their guns is used in a mass shooting (God forbid but seems almost inevitable)
In the past, Colt has made some statements and decisions that earned them a much deserved *fuck you* back from gun owners. BLUF: I don't think this is one. They've also been through numerous bankruptcies since then, and IMHO the idea that this is politically motivated is a conclusion drawn by the leftist media (with a disregard for critical thought or factual information as usual) in order to hype the idea that ARs aren't fit for public consumption.
Colt builds a solid AR. Not the best, but they're also not the most expensive. I think the idea that they used to build awesome rifles but they are now pieces of shit is absurd and the people who are saying it just don't like Colt and are looking for reasons to shit on them, whether or not there's any actual basis to do so. If the above were the case they wouldn't still be winning military contracts; the standards they are required to meet are the same, the quality is no less. Colt ARs are about on par with FN and the prices reflect that. HK has nicer fit and finish than both Colt and FN, but in my experience using them at work I've had more problems with HKs (not that that's a lot). Sample size of one dude-take it for what its worth.
I think it makes more sense that they have limited production capacity and don't want to invest in a permanent increased capacity given the temporary nature of contracts. They've been burned by over reliance on contracts before, and we all know the Colt of today is much smaller (i.e. less production capacity) than the Colt of years ago.
Additionally, they are at a comparative disadvantage in terms of production cost compared to competitors, like FN, that are based in right to work states that have lower prices indices. Its no coincidence that Beretta, FN, Remington, and multiple other manufacturing operations that aren't necessarily part of the firearm industry have moved South. Its more expensive to make shit when you have to subsidize union execs through your payroll.
During the Obama admin there were a lot of new AR companies that came into being, so market saturation is part of this too. This is why a decade ago you budgeted $1000 for an AR and now you can get them for ~$400. Not necessarily the same quality, but there are certainly more options now with not a whole lot to differentiate many of the brands. The Trump admin hasn't seen panic buys like the previous one did, though ironically and unfortunately it has been worse for gun owners than the Obama admin.
I'm not Colt fanboy, though their new revolvers are nice; but until the haters can come up with actual reasons why this is politically driven instead of what I mentioned above my position, and that of those with critical thinking skills, will remain the same.
Colt builds a solid AR. Not the best, but they're also not the most expensive. I think the idea that they used to build awesome rifles but they are now pieces of shit is absurd and the people who are saying it just don't like Colt and are looking for reasons to shit on them, whether or not there's any actual basis to do so. If the above were the case they wouldn't still be winning military contracts; the standards they are required to meet are the same, the quality is no less. Colt ARs are about on par with FN and the prices reflect that. HK has nicer fit and finish than both Colt and FN, but in my experience using them at work I've had more problems with HKs (not that that's a lot). Sample size of one dude-take it for what its worth.
I think it makes more sense that they have limited production capacity and don't want to invest in a permanent increased capacity given the temporary nature of contracts. They've been burned by over reliance on contracts before, and we all know the Colt of today is much smaller (i.e. less production capacity) than the Colt of years ago.
Additionally, they are at a comparative disadvantage in terms of production cost compared to competitors, like FN, that are based in right to work states that have lower prices indices. Its no coincidence that Beretta, FN, Remington, and multiple other manufacturing operations that aren't necessarily part of the firearm industry have moved South. Its more expensive to make shit when you have to subsidize union execs through your payroll.
During the Obama admin there were a lot of new AR companies that came into being, so market saturation is part of this too. This is why a decade ago you budgeted $1000 for an AR and now you can get them for ~$400. Not necessarily the same quality, but there are certainly more options now with not a whole lot to differentiate many of the brands. The Trump admin hasn't seen panic buys like the previous one did, though ironically and unfortunately it has been worse for gun owners than the Obama admin.
I'm not Colt fanboy, though their new revolvers are nice; but until the haters can come up with actual reasons why this is politically driven instead of what I mentioned above my position, and that of those with critical thinking skills, will remain the same.
No one has accused Colt of running their business well in the last 15+ years.
This is just another example of it.
This is just another example of it.
Actually, taking a break from the less profitable civilian market to concentrate where the margins are greater may be one of the few smart business moves they've made in a while. The other is restarting DA revolver production with smart improvements.
Aside from a few well-considered comments from people who obviously understand business, this whole thread is industrial-grade stupid.
FIFY.
I enjoy a lot of Chris's rifle reviews because of their technical information, but IMO he'd have been better served not to have made that video.
It just comes off someone who's bitter and has a bone to pick, and so isn't able to be an objective critic.
I've watched and stayed silent on this.
I think that Colt's actions and explanations make excellent business sense. They are a founding member of the firearms community, and times are not great for them. Theirs are not the only corporate changes that are going on in our purview.
I, for one, am tired of watching people vilifying gun corporations and others on this site for reasons that are neither their personal business nor, honestly, ours. Such accusers are helping the gun haters and gun grabbers by driving bigger and bigger wedges deeper and deeper between the all of us.
We need each other and some of you don't seem to agree with this.
Knock it off; we need to find solidarity, and not division, in these times.
Greg
I think that Colt's actions and explanations make excellent business sense. They are a founding member of the firearms community, and times are not great for them. Theirs are not the only corporate changes that are going on in our purview.
I, for one, am tired of watching people vilifying gun corporations and others on this site for reasons that are neither their personal business nor, honestly, ours. Such accusers are helping the gun haters and gun grabbers by driving bigger and bigger wedges deeper and deeper between the all of us.
We need each other and some of you don't seem to agree with this.
Knock it off; we need to find solidarity, and not division, in these times.
Greg
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Greg, I often disagree with you.
But not now. Now not at all......
Well said.
Edit, most often the most vocal critics don't have the first fucking clue about running a business anyway.
I agree, go run a business and have a balance sheet. Meet payroll, pay roll taxes, property taxes, health care, lights and water on, marketing, lawyer on retainer, pay vendors Net30. I am retired in the business but my contacts that are still in say gun, ammo and related product is down 30% to last year that was down 20% to LY.
Why anyone wants a business to shut down, lay off people who are trying to make a living to put food on their table. Amazes me.
Gun owners would rather argue about stupid stuff like this Vs organize, have a plan and stay on point.
Why anyone wants a business to shut down, lay off people who are trying to make a living to put food on their table. Amazes me.
Gun owners would rather argue about stupid stuff like this Vs organize, have a plan and stay on point.
During WWII, a Japanese Admiral is credited with saying invasion of the US is suicide as there would be a rifleman behind every blade of grass. The American gun owner sees an enemy to THEIR version of the 2A b hind every blade...
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