I build rifles so pistols are not my strong subject. with that said ienjoy all my sidearms ive had my sights set on a les baer but a fella at the club this morning tried talking me into a colt gold cup Ive heard several 1911 smiths say that colt pistols arent always all that well machined. I deal in custom so i dont want any rough machined 1911 i feel safer going with the baer, unless some one here changes my mind,, LOL Thanks men,
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Sidearms & Scatterguns colt vs Les Baer
- Thread starter lapuaBR
- Start date
If you want "well machined", get a DW, but between the Colt Gold Cup and a Baer, Baer. Way better fitted than the GC, easily as accurate.
dont know where my previous post went.....long story short is i know a guy that spent the money on a baer....was mighty unhappy with the gun....machined a little TOO tight....accurate? yup. but wouldnt function for beans.
^ never shot one. but i have heard NOTHING but great things. i had a older kimber that was the titties...but i heard they’ve gone downhill since i had that one. were i going to buy today, it’d be dan wesson.
^ never shot one. but i have heard NOTHING but great things. i had a older kimber that was the titties...but i heard they’ve gone downhill since i had that one. were i going to buy today, it’d be dan wesson.
Colt doesn’t make anything good anymore. There, I said it.
I can tell you from first hand experience that the Baer’s are tight, but they shoot. I have one with nearly 4000 rounds through it. Other than a few hand loads that I made with the OAL too long I have never had a jam and shot many different types of ammo through mine. If you decide on a Colt Gold Cup I wouldn’t get one of the newer ones. The older ones were much more of a custom gun than the newer ones. Better fit, trigger, etc. If you get a Baer I think you will be happy, but I wouldn’t turn down an old Colt Gold Cup in good shape either. You just won’t have the options of sights, finish, etc with the Gold Cup.
All of the Baers that I had, didn’t like slide grease during breakin,,,synthetic oil only
Les Baer is arguably the most bang for your buck when it comes to custom 1911s. That being said, Nighthawk, Wilson and others are arguably "nicer" but you get to the point of diminishing returns , especially in terms of performance, at that point. Colt's recent quality is questionable or at least inconsistent. I would only go with a Colt if I could get one of suitable quality and was going to send it out to a reputable gunsmith for custom work.
I posted this originally on another forum....
I have a UTC and a Valor, the Dan Wesson uses state of the art CNC, based on measurements, Baer is chunks of metal, hammered together until they more or less fit.
The DW has bevelled edges, you can shave with the slide on my Baer.
The DW has clean, evenly executed checkering, the Baer shows a whimsical use of the file.
I can rack the Valor by pressing my forefinger on the recoil plug. cant do that with the UTC.
If it came down to keeping one of them, it'd be the Baer; it feels like it would keep on shooting forever
I have a UTC and a Valor, the Dan Wesson uses state of the art CNC, based on measurements, Baer is chunks of metal, hammered together until they more or less fit.
The DW has bevelled edges, you can shave with the slide on my Baer.
The DW has clean, evenly executed checkering, the Baer shows a whimsical use of the file.
I can rack the Valor by pressing my forefinger on the recoil plug. cant do that with the UTC.
If it came down to keeping one of them, it'd be the Baer; it feels like it would keep on shooting forever
I really like the monolith from bear. I have a couple edbrown 1911’s. They are great. Both commander size. I’d like a full length custom. Accurate and fast
Ive had Colts in ARs and 1911s. I will never buy another Colt product ever. EVER! My combat elite came with the holes for the slide stop drilled crooked in the frame. Know how long it took me to figure that shit out? It took several smiths, and more money than the gun cost originally. Jeff Abernathy at Tommy Guns finally figured it out and fixed it for me. Of course by then literally every part on the gun except for the slide and frame have been changed. Thanks to Jeff, it’s a running sob now, but for the love of God, who turns out 1911s with crooked holes in the frame.
Between you two choices; go with the Baer!
They are known for being tight. They want the gun to wear in not wear out. Right in the paper work they tell you not to disassemble until 1000 rounds have been run through it. That number is about right based on the ones that I have owned.
They are known for being tight. They want the gun to wear in not wear out. Right in the paper work they tell you not to disassemble until 1000 rounds have been run through it. That number is about right based on the ones that I have owned.
I had a hard chrome Baer PII that I shot in USPSA for years. Turned out even Les Baer can turn out a lemon. The vertical impact surface on the frame bridge wasn't playing nice with the barrel and link. A small crack developed on the link on the bottom of the barrel after about 40,000 rounds. I had Benny at Triangle Shooting Sports fit a new barrel and the problem was solved. FWIW, Baer goes over board with his hard fit. Still, if I had to choose between Dan Wesson, Baer, and Colt, the Colt would come in last place.
^^^Benny does good work, hell of a shooter too. Shot with him at Area 6 3g a number of years ago, and was really impressed with his gun skill, and how nice he was to everyone on the squad.
i cant speak for all Colts..but i recently picked up a Colt 1911 Classic, and that thing is manufactured perfectly, genuinely nothing to complain about....and i teach machining for a living.
Baer all day, every day.
I’ve owned mine for 20 years.
Carried it for 10.
It has over 15,000 rounds through it.
Not one malf that wasn’t mag related and precious few of those.
I’ve owned mine for 20 years.
Carried it for 10.
It has over 15,000 rounds through it.
Not one malf that wasn’t mag related and precious few of those.
I have had Baer/brown/Wilson/nighthawk and dan Wesson 1911s.
baer is most accurate, for me extremely reliable (I have 10 of them) And are the best bang for the buck. Dan Wesson would be great choice for a little less money.
brown/wilson/nighthawk all shoot great but you pay a lot for the extra fancy. They don’t group as well as the Baers
The colts don’t come close the any of those for performance (grouping)
not sure about the current quality but have seen Springfield trp and trophy match perform very well.
baer is most accurate, for me extremely reliable (I have 10 of them) And are the best bang for the buck. Dan Wesson would be great choice for a little less money.
brown/wilson/nighthawk all shoot great but you pay a lot for the extra fancy. They don’t group as well as the Baers
The colts don’t come close the any of those for performance (grouping)
not sure about the current quality but have seen Springfield trp and trophy match perform very well.
When I was into IPSC in the 90s I bought a Baer Series 70 6 port comp gun. Ran SWCs great with non trivial amount of taper crimp. I wont guess how many rounds have been run through but it certainly north of 10k. Still have it and still shoot it. But its a race gun and thats it.
for something more traditional and not as ‘racegunny’. Is that a word? I guess it is now.
I got a Wilson Protector. Super nice pistol. It runs great also. It is less fussy about ammo that the Baer.
Both are superior to a Gold Cup IMHO.
for something more traditional and not as ‘racegunny’. Is that a word? I guess it is now.
I got a Wilson Protector. Super nice pistol. It runs great also. It is less fussy about ammo that the Baer.
Both are superior to a Gold Cup IMHO.
I used to own a Colt. It was a piece of shit. Not very accurate, so loose it rattled and jammed constantly. I now own a Baer. Fantastic gun. Extremely accurate and runs like a sewing machine. It's like comparing a Volkswagon Beetle to a Porsche 911.
Don't know that I'd call a pistol developing a crack on the barrel link after 40,000 rounds a "lemon".
Very few guns come with a "bow tie" cut on the VIS to mitigate the continual impact, so the Baer's not unusual in that regard.
I've got a bit of experience with the Colts and Dan Wessons. I've shot a Baer, but don't own one. Only thing I know about Baers are that they are tight-fit and require a break in period.
The DW 1911 is still better fit than the stuff coming out of Colt's custom shop. Accuracy wise, less than 1 percent of shooters have the skill to tell the difference. Which one shoots better is a toss up.
DW sandwiched between two custom shop M45A1 CQBP. I have three more CCS 1911s and a Bright Stainless GCNM. I shoot the DW, I collect the Colts.
The DW 1911 is still better fit than the stuff coming out of Colt's custom shop. Accuracy wise, less than 1 percent of shooters have the skill to tell the difference. Which one shoots better is a toss up.
DW sandwiched between two custom shop M45A1 CQBP. I have three more CCS 1911s and a Bright Stainless GCNM. I shoot the DW, I collect the Colts.
Baer - I've got a Super-tac - took 500 rounds to break-in, and didn't turn to butter until approx 800 rounds. Have ~900 on it now. Crazy accurate. If I didn't want to pay extra for the Baer, Dan Wesson would be my 2nd choice.
I've never had a Les Baer but I've had several Colt 1911's, and I've had a couple of DW's. There is no comparison between a Dan Wesson and a Colt, they are not even in the same ballpark in my opinion.
DW 1911's are extraordinary.
DW 1911's are extraordinary.
There is a Colt Gold Cup NM at my local shop.
As soon as I picked it up, I noticed the loose fit. Frame to slide fit was so bad it rattles horrendously. My old $500 Springfield mil spec was better. Trigger was nothing special and nowhere close to my STI 1911. I didn’t bother going through the rest of the Gun because I was so put off by the slide/frame fit.
As soon as I picked it up, I noticed the loose fit. Frame to slide fit was so bad it rattles horrendously. My old $500 Springfield mil spec was better. Trigger was nothing special and nowhere close to my STI 1911. I didn’t bother going through the rest of the Gun because I was so put off by the slide/frame fit.
I’ve got a few Dan Wesson’s as well as a couple Baers and they are two of my favorites and in my price range. As stated the Dan Wesson guns are machined extremely precise and all the ones I’ve seen their lines and machining are excellent. The Baer is a different animal. It’s all hand fit and expect it to have file marks it’s the nature of the hand fitting. I honestly don’t even consider Colts.
Yeah as a 1911 enthusiast (ok Boomer!) Colt has really fallen off the map (Disclosure, I have a Colt 1991A1 that has been upgraded to a very nice sidearm).
Colt is defintly your "stock" gun and Les Bauer is Custom. I want to say its like comparing Chevy to Cadillac, but they both will break cause they are GM (I kid, I kid).
Colt I would recommend only if you are a Colt Enthusiast. From a price point Springfield is a better option and even S&W or Ruger (yup they all make 1911s). That's your "standard 1911". Colt is overpriced for their value.
Below that in the "Value Tier" is something like Rock Island--purists will turn up their noses, but even though they are unrefined, they work--kinda like a beater gun you can muck around with and if you screw it up, you are out not very much. (My 1911 Widebody at $900 competes with 2-3000 STIs ROFL!!)
Dan Wesson is in that "Semi Custom" like a high end Springfield or a worked over 1911 with all the bells and whistles--a step above standard for a modest price increase.
Les Bauer is in the Custom realm. Never had or shot a custom 1911. Supposedly very very nice. I can't justify that kinda coin on a gun that is probably gonna get driven pretty hard (I shoot USPSA). WIlson/Nighthawk seem to be the cream of the crop, but to be honest at that price I can buy an Open Gun widebody doublestack 1911. Price for improvement is pretty steep. Just my $0.02. Incoming custom 1911 flames I'm sure.
Edit: Took a look at the LB price list. Definitlymore palatable than Wilson/Nighthawk!
Colt is defintly your "stock" gun and Les Bauer is Custom. I want to say its like comparing Chevy to Cadillac, but they both will break cause they are GM (I kid, I kid).
Colt I would recommend only if you are a Colt Enthusiast. From a price point Springfield is a better option and even S&W or Ruger (yup they all make 1911s). That's your "standard 1911". Colt is overpriced for their value.
Below that in the "Value Tier" is something like Rock Island--purists will turn up their noses, but even though they are unrefined, they work--kinda like a beater gun you can muck around with and if you screw it up, you are out not very much. (My 1911 Widebody at $900 competes with 2-3000 STIs ROFL!!)
Dan Wesson is in that "Semi Custom" like a high end Springfield or a worked over 1911 with all the bells and whistles--a step above standard for a modest price increase.
Les Bauer is in the Custom realm. Never had or shot a custom 1911. Supposedly very very nice. I can't justify that kinda coin on a gun that is probably gonna get driven pretty hard (I shoot USPSA). WIlson/Nighthawk seem to be the cream of the crop, but to be honest at that price I can buy an Open Gun widebody doublestack 1911. Price for improvement is pretty steep. Just my $0.02. Incoming custom 1911 flames I'm sure.
Edit: Took a look at the LB price list. Definitlymore palatable than Wilson/Nighthawk!
Les is definately not in the Custom realm- You can test this by calling him up and asking if he can do you a UTC and undercut the trigger guard, fit a Nowlin barrel and a Wilson bulletproof safety......He makes 1911's pretty much the way he wants, angrily, and that's that. They're not always neat or tidy.
I don't think USPSA would break a Baer...
Baer's an anomaly in the 1911 world... like a throwback from yesteryear. With the ones I've shot the checkering hasn't ben the cleanest, they don't look spectacular and you can tell each one was... unique. They do lock up tighter than a bank vault though, and after they've been put through their paces they've been an absolute pleasure.
No, you won't get the same custom options you get with WC, NH or EB's, but you get the tier 1 accuracy, arguably the BEST accuracy of any 1911 out there for a little less coin. If you're looking for the most accurate 1911 you can find Baer's where it's at. Only a fraction of 1% of shooters can realize that improvement though. If you're looking for a safe queen or bbq gun you might want to look elsewhere. Different guns with a different approach to their construction for sure.
No, you won't get the same custom options you get with WC, NH or EB's, but you get the tier 1 accuracy, arguably the BEST accuracy of any 1911 out there for a little less coin. If you're looking for the most accurate 1911 you can find Baer's where it's at. Only a fraction of 1% of shooters can realize that improvement though. If you're looking for a safe queen or bbq gun you might want to look elsewhere. Different guns with a different approach to their construction for sure.
Baer’s are seriously good shooters but they MUST be well broken in before they are anywhere near reliable. At least 500 rounds. as most everyone has already said the DAn Wesson’s are a great value. They shoot and look good. If you’ve got the Money look into Ed Browns offerings. In my avatar there is a 1/2” 5 shot group I shot at 25 yards with one. Zero break in required to shoot AND be reliable.
Baers have wider grip frames. Les Baers have soul, that other pistols lack. They are far from perfect, but they are by far my favorite semi custom 1911.
If this is the only 1911 you’ll ever own, then I’d buy a new production Gold Cup.
If this is the only 1911 you’ll ever own, then I’d buy a new production Gold Cup.
Colt vs Baer is apple vs orange. Baers are hand fitted parts vs box of parts. I owned 2 Baers. Good bang for the buck 1911
Colt is currently making the best pistols they ever have. That makes them great base guns for customs.
I'm not a fan of Baer. If I wanted a Baer like gun, Alchemy is 2x better. Dan Wessons are nice, but better with a little work done to them.
I'm not a fan of Baer. If I wanted a Baer like gun, Alchemy is 2x better. Dan Wessons are nice, but better with a little work done to them.
The above post cover the Baer very well. Some, but not all need break in. They are hands down the most accurate. Les is not going to customze anything at all and is mostly hostile.
One of my 6" guns with the 1.5" accuracy spec shot the first 5 shots at 50 yards into a one inch black dot. I did not see a hole and had to walk down and look to see that i was hitting the paper. If you want accuracy, go Baer.
Today I own none. I simply prefer Wilson Combat with adiquite accuracy and more of the feel and features I value. I do wish I had that 6" gun back though.
One of my 6" guns with the 1.5" accuracy spec shot the first 5 shots at 50 yards into a one inch black dot. I did not see a hole and had to walk down and look to see that i was hitting the paper. If you want accuracy, go Baer.
Today I own none. I simply prefer Wilson Combat with adiquite accuracy and more of the feel and features I value. I do wish I had that 6" gun back though.
Definitely Baer over Colt. I have two PII’s with the 1.5” option - neither required a break-in. I went with Tripp Mags right from the get go. Shoots everything and anything you feed it - 230 hardball to 185 grain wad cutters - cast or jacket - doesn’t matter. The Baer will shoot better than you can hold, so when you test for accuracy, do so from a rest.
I don't think there is much hate. The colt is a nice production gun, the Dan Wesson is probably a little nicer production gun. The Les Baer would be a semi custom.
You could argue the DW is cnc'd to tighter tolerances whereas the LB is hand filed to the same, or slightly tighter. I appreciate the craftsmanship vs how well someone can write numbers into a CNC mill. I also like to use hand made knives when I can. I also carry a gransfors brux in my hunting bag.
You could argue the DW is cnc'd to tighter tolerances whereas the LB is hand filed to the same, or slightly tighter. I appreciate the craftsmanship vs how well someone can write numbers into a CNC mill. I also like to use hand made knives when I can. I also carry a gransfors brux in my hunting bag.
I had a Les Baer ('Concept 8' all stainless 4") and it did shot well but compared to my Dan Wesson's (5" 'Valor' and a 4.25" 'Specialist') the fit and especially finish was WAY less! And the Wessons shoot as well/accurate.
Most say the Baer's are super tight and need tons of rounds to break-in, and I did get mine 'used' with 400 rounds already down the pipe, but it wasn't very tight looking and even had a bit of the 1911 rattle when shacking it..! The Wesson guns don't do that.
Your milage might vary.
Most say the Baer's are super tight and need tons of rounds to break-in, and I did get mine 'used' with 400 rounds already down the pipe, but it wasn't very tight looking and even had a bit of the 1911 rattle when shacking it..! The Wesson guns don't do that.
Your milage might vary.
Wesson are really hard to beat on the value spectrum. They perform up there with the Semi-Customs, many costing twice as much or more. Yea you don't get the same hand work attention but this is 100 year old design and they have cracked the CNC to pump these out.
Baers are built too tight for anything but range use. You may get one that breaks in even and you may get one that runs into issues when dirty/dry/ammo/mag dependent. Reliability is number one requirement so they are out for me. They are built too tight to trust to anything but gun games IMO.
Colt are pretty featureless and you are getting into DW terriroty for their higher end offerings. DW uses or used a bunch of Wilson componets as well, which is a huge plus. Once you get into $1200 and then approaching $3k, I don't think anything can touch a DW except maybe the older springer Pros when they were $2500 or so. Maybe a nice TRP for under $1k, but bushingless guns are gross.
I do wish there was some nice deep blued versions of some of the more traditional designs like the Valor and Specialist. Duty coat is the shit but sometimes its nice to carry a deep blued shooter. Over time that patina becomes oh so sexy.
Baers are built too tight for anything but range use. You may get one that breaks in even and you may get one that runs into issues when dirty/dry/ammo/mag dependent. Reliability is number one requirement so they are out for me. They are built too tight to trust to anything but gun games IMO.
Colt are pretty featureless and you are getting into DW terriroty for their higher end offerings. DW uses or used a bunch of Wilson componets as well, which is a huge plus. Once you get into $1200 and then approaching $3k, I don't think anything can touch a DW except maybe the older springer Pros when they were $2500 or so. Maybe a nice TRP for under $1k, but bushingless guns are gross.
I do wish there was some nice deep blued versions of some of the more traditional designs like the Valor and Specialist. Duty coat is the shit but sometimes its nice to carry a deep blued shooter. Over time that patina becomes oh so sexy.
That’s your opinion and it probably serves you well. As stated, I have two (2) PII Baers, one ion bond treated and the other has the hard hat treatment. Neither one has ever had a failure to fire or eject with correctly loaded ammo or factory ammo.
I have experienced 2 squib loads and had to pound the slug from the barrel and I experienced a hammer follow after lighting the trigger pull to a crisp 2.25#’s - not the fault of the 1911. I know of three (3) other owners of Baer PII’s that were good/reliable right out of the gate - they also went with after market mags - I believe they all went with 47D’s, whereas I prefer Tripp. Based on my experience and those I personally know of, I highly recommend the use of Baer pistols in whatever environment you choose to enter.
I clean my pistol after maybe 100 to 600 rounds, never affected function, but I know of 2700 target competitors who cleaned their Clark pistols once a year and if they experienced a stovepipe, it was probably due to the powder measure.
Any pistol can experience a failure to feed and most will at one time or another - some seem to jam on a regular basis for one reason or another, while others shoot very well and rarely have a problem. If I would ever find myself in a CQC situation and could only have a handgun - I would reach for my PII, with milled slide holding a Leupold Deltapoint with BUIS and 2.25# trigger with Tripp mags loaded with 230 grain Gold Dots in front of VV N350 powder capable of flying at 983 FPS into a bug hole at 25 yards.
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my Baer's ( had 2 still have one), has never choked. And it's tighter than a Nuns' nasty. An unreliable gun is an unreliable gun and the reverse is true. It has no idea if it's getting shot at the range or shot at maurauding zombies, so it can't make a choice on whether to work or not.
nope. Never. In the early days ome Brown parts on the bobtails, some Grieder slide stops. Some odds that were carried over into Fusion when Bob Serva moved. One of the first to have totally tool steel fire controls
My Springer Pro, ( circa '06, Nowlin barrel ), is one of the best built 1911's I have outside of full custom. Tons of hand fitting and testing. I don't believe mines atypical. Better than any Nighthawk, Wilson, Brown, Baer, DW that i've owned ( 20 give or take). That's why I still have it after I've moved on many of the others.
No argument. They did a limited run of blued carbon steel Valors a couple of years ago.
Mine is fake blued, done in DLC.
Wow that finish looks fantastic. What is the exact name of it? Most DLC I have seen is very deep black.
cheers- it's a very dark, smokey grey, rather than blue- the metal prep underneath, brushed flats and matte rounds, gives it that sheen and adds a lot to the finished result. I've had many people pick it up and think it was blued
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