Compact Optic for .308 Gas Gun

[Denns]

Hi there,
I'm searching for a rather compact scope for my AR10 with a 16" barrel.
Should be used mainly for plinking out to max. 600-800m.
I know this can be done with a 1-6 scope but I like more magnification better.

My favourite choicec are at the moment:
1, a used S&B 5-20x50 ultra short without illumination for 2000$ (private seller)
2, a new Minox ZP5 3-15x50 for 2300$ (from a official dealer)
3, a new Vortex Viper PST Gen. II 3-15x44 ffp mrad for 1250$

I know the Vortex won't be as good as the other two but the razor hd gen 2 which would be better to compare costs more than the minox here and is therefore not interesting for me.

Are the minox and the S&B worth the higher price?

 

[GreenMushroom]

You should be able to get the Viper for half that if you shop around. It's a nice scope for the $ but isn't exactly compact.

 

[Denns]

You should be able to get the Viper for half that if you shop around. It's a nice scope for the $ but isn't exactly compact.

I should have written that I'm in europe..... Vortex is higher priced here. Can't get it for less than 1250$ (coverted from euro)
I know its not exactly compact but compacter than my massive M7Xi i had before.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I wouldn't consider it at that price. If you're used to s&b and swaro glass you probably won't be happy with a viper.

 

[srt-4_uk]

There's also the Eotech 5-25, March FX series to look at.

 

[KZP]

Look at a used or demo model Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42mm. Can be found around $2k or lower.

 

[Krob95]

Schmidt 5-20US hands down. My buddy runs one on his JP LRP-07 in .308 and it is the perfect optic for a AR-10.

I'll add I have a decent amount of time behind that optic. For 2K I'd buy that in a heart beat

 

[Denns]

There's also the Eotech 5-25, March FX series to look at.

The Eotech is like 2600$ here and the March FX i found is about 3400$ so both are a little to expensive.

 

[Denns]

Look at a used or demo model Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42mm. Can be found around $2k or lower.

The Atacr is about 4k$ new here so I think even a used one never gets close to 2k.... prices are high here in europe

 

[SD Carpenter]

You will be hard pressed to beat the minox in quality glasswise.

 

[Denns]

Schmidt 5-20US hands down. My buddy runs one on his JP LRP-07 in .308 and it is the perfect optic for a AR-10.

Yeah its also kinda my favourite but i have some issues with it because its used and it doesn't have illumination.... I mean i will probaly never use the illumination but i think its hard to sell again because nearly every S&B here is with illumination.

 

[st1650]

Schmidt 5-20US hands down. My buddy runs one on his JP LRP-07 in .308 and it is the perfect optic for a AR-10.

I'll add I have a decent amount of time behind that optic. For 2K I'd buy that in a heart beat

Hands down.

 

[Denns]

So considered the Minox and the S&B you would pick the S&B even though its used and doesnt have illumination?
I mean "used" means it was mounted on a gun, there are no obvious signs of usage like scratches or so.

 

[Denns]

You will be hard pressed to beat the minox in quality glasswise.

I have read that but I haven't looked through a Minox yet.

 

[Krob95]

I would pick the S&B due to my experience with the 5-20 on an AR-10. If strictly for daylight use and no need for the illum, I'd just get the S&B.

 

[beetroot]

The PST is a nice scope for the money but the SB would be a far better option if you don't need illumination and the reticle was one you liked.

Does the 3-15 ZP5 come with the Mr4 or MR5 reticle?
The MR4 is a pretty sweet reticle of you need a tree reticle.

Where in Europe are you that you can own and AR and have such cheap European tactical scopes?

 

[stello1001]

ATACR 4-16x42

 

[Denns]

I would pick the S&B due to my experience with the 5-20 on an AR-10. If strictly for daylight use and no need for the illum, I'd just get the S&B.

Yep just for daylight I won't hunt with this rifle. I just thought maybe the resale value is worse without illum but well the price is already good so maybe not that much of an issue.

 

[Denns]

The PST is a nice scope for the money but the SB would be a far better option if you don't need illumination and the reticle was one you liked.

Does the 3-15 ZP5 come with the Mr4 or MR5 reticle?
The MR4 is a pretty sweet reticle of you need a tree reticle.

Where in Europe are you that you can own and AR and have such cheap European tactical scopes?

Reticle is P4F so pretty basic but would do it for me i guess.
ZP5 would come with the MR5 reticle only, so also a basic one as far as i know.

Austria you can own pretty much anything here you guys in the US can except full autos. (Yeah i know the issues with the 1986 ban but still you can own one)
The only thing is that I sadly can't own a unlimited number of semi auto guns. Bolt and break action is not regulated so you can buy as much as you want as long as you are over 18 years old but for semi autos and handguns you need a license which is limited.

 

[cjs88]

I've had the pst gen II and it's a good starter scope. I have a S&B 3-27 PM II HP and love it. I'd go with a the US if I were you.

 

[Denns]

Thanks for all of your replies!
For a little comparison: a new 5-20x50 US with illumination costs about 3300$ here. I can't find a price for this scope without illumination maybe theyre not producing it any more.
So i could save about 1300$ with the used one without illum.

Some more prices for you to compare:
ZC420: 3200$
K318i: 3250$
M7Xi 2.9-20: 3200$
M5Xi 3-15: 2500$

Edit: We may have better prices for our euro scopes but we pay insane prices for oversea stuff.
For example:
Trijicon RMR: ~900$
Trijicon ACOG: ~2150$
Elcan Specter: ~3000$

 

[beetroot]

Thanks for all of your replies!
For a little comparison: a new 5-20x50 US with illumination costs about 3300$ here. I can't find a price for this scope without illumination maybe theyre not producing it any more.
So i could save about 1300$ with the used one without illum.

Some more prices for you to compare:
ZC420: 3200$
K318i: 3250$
M7Xi 2.9-20: 3200$
M5Xi 3-15: 2500$

Edit: We may have better prices for our euro scopes but we pay insane prices for oversea stuff.
For example:
Trijicon RMR: ~900$
Trijicon ACOG: ~2150$
Elcan Specter: ~3000$

Sounds like I need to move to Austria....

 

[cafemike]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the Credo HX 1-8 or a lightweight 2-10x (Im running the Eotech Vudu 2.5x10-44 FFP on my 308 and wish it was a just a tad lighter ie 20oz range vs 28oz).
I picked up the Viper PST 3-15x44 FFP for my 30:06 from Europtic for $550 (great price) and it comes in 28oz...

 

[vivdav]

I sure like my ATACR 1-8 on my 16 in AR10. Perfect little setup.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I would I would think a nice 1-6 or 1-8 with a 308 reticle would be nice

 

[Wyfox]

The 5-20, its a perfect fit for a 308 gasser.

 

[Denns]

I would I would think a nice 1-6 or 1-8 with a 308 reticle would be nice

I already have a Kahles K16i and I want more magnification because i like it although it may not be necessary.

 

[Denns]

The 5-20, its a perfect fit for a 308 gasser.

Looks great! I think I will go with the Schmidt that seems to be the best solution.
The Minox is surely great but it would cost 300$ more and I can get a decent mount for that money.

 

[Dogtown]

Yeah its also kinda my favourite but i have some issues with it because its used and it doesn't have illumination.... I mean i will probaly never use the illumination but i think its hard to sell again because nearly every S&B here is with illumination.

The illuminated version of the 5-20x has very little space to fit rings - if you go that route you pretty much need a mount that's specific to that optic. I had similar concerns a while back but then I asked myself "when have I actually needed an illuminated reticle since I got out of the Army?" Pretty much zero. The non-illuminated 5-20x is a bit cheaper obviously, but it doesn't have that mount real estate issue. And S&B scopes retain their value quite well.

 

[BCP]

In Europe I'd look for a used S&B or something like that. The "American" scopes like Leupold/Nightforce/Vortex probably have import duties and stuff that make them much more expensive vs here.

 

[Denns]

Things changed, the seller of the S&B desided to keep the scope and isn't selling it any more.
Now the choices are:
1, wait until another S&B US for a decent price shows up
2, buy the Minox
3, buy another scope

Problem is in the 2k$ range aren't that much scopes (as written above) most of the rather compact ones like ZC420 or K318i are in the 3k+ range.....
The Minox would be the premium "compact" one with 2300$ new.
Currently all Schmidts for sale here are 5-25 and these things are huge.

 

[Denns]

One more scope that would be interesting is the Meopta MeoTac 3-12x50 which currently goes for 1800$ online.
Thats like 500$ cheaper than the Minox but i haven't heard much of this Meopta but many good things about their other scopes.
Also the Meopta comes with Tenebraex Caps so this are another 100$ more.

 

[beetroot]

Things changed, the seller of the S&B desided to keep the scope and isn't selling it any more.
Now the choices are:
1, wait until another S&B US for a decent price shows up
2, buy the Minox
3, buy another scope

Problem is in the 2k$ range aren't that much scopes (as written above) most of the rather compact ones like ZC420 or K318i are in the 3k+ range.....
The Minox would be the premium "compact" one with 2300$ new.
Currently all Schmidts for sale here are 5-25 and these things are huge.

Agree with those 3 options.
If you are paying $2300 for a ZP5 then that is considerably cheaper than in the US, so is something you can consider that most in the US don't.

Another option you could consider is the Burris XTR3, theres supposed to be an illuminated 3.3-18 model out very soon (next month apparently) which could be just what you need.
There are some online stores in the UK that list the current model for around 1800USD once you remove their VAT.
Not sure if they are the same price in Austria but seem to have less mark up that the likes of Vortex.

 

[Denns]

Agree with those 3 options.
If you are paying $2300 for a ZP5 then that is considerably cheaper than in the US, so is something you can consider that most in the US don't.

Another option you could consider is the Burris XTR3, theres supposed to be an illuminated 3.3-18 model out very soon (next month apparently) which could be just what you need.
There are some online stores in the UK that list the current model for around 1800USD once you remove their VAT.
Not sure if they are the same price in Austria but seem to have less mark up that the likes of Vortex.

The Burris is also not really an option, found one price and its like 2500$ here.

What I have found is a Razor HD gen II for a really good price. A 3-18x50 FFP EBR-7C MRAD for 1800$, this normally costs 2500$ here.
Also the 4.5-27 could be have for like 200$ more and its nearly the same size and weight.
What I don't like about the Razor is that they are extremely heavy but well even my suppressor weights about 23oz so the optic doest't really matter.
If I need the rifle light i could just put the Kahles K16i on it and remove the suppressor so maybe the Vortex 4.5-27 is the right way to go?

What do you think?

 

[beetroot]

The Burris is also not really an option, found one price and its like 2500$ here.

What I have found is a Razor HD gen II for a really good price. A 3-18x50 FFP EBR-7C MRAD for 1800$, this normally costs 2500$ here.

Can you buy from other countries?

I live in New Zealand and buy very little locally due to ridiculous pricing.
It can be hard to find places that will ship, shipping is expensive and I have to pay import duty but it's still well worth it, something like the Burris or a Razor I can save $1000 easily.

 

[Denns]

Can you buy from other countries?

I live in New Zealand and buy very little locally due to ridiculous pricing.
It can be hard to find places that will ship, shipping is expensive and I have to pay import duty but it's still well worth it, something like the Burris or a Razor I can save $1000 easily.

My prices are already from other countries in the EU, if i order from outside the EU mostly the shipping is expensive and after that i have to pay 20% import tax and like 5 or more % custom fee. The 1800$ for the 3-18 Razor HD Gen II and the about 2100$ for the 4.5-27 Razor HD Gen II are the best prices I could find but this is only a christmas sale so i need to order until December the 31th. In every other online store here theyre at least 700-800$ more expensive.

 

[Denns]

So right now i narrowed it down to this 3 scopes:
Minox ZP5 3-15x50 = 2300$ (reticle MR5 only, Tenebraex caps included)
Vortex Razor HD GII 3-18x50 = 1800$ (reticle EBR-7C MRAD)
Vortex razor HD GII 4.5-27x56 = 2100$ (reticle EBR-7C MRAD)

The 5-25 Minox is too long for my taste thats why its not listed here (would cost 2500$)
Reticle wise the EBR-7C is my favourite for the small center dot which i know from my Steiner which had a MSR-2 reticle. I don't need a tree reticle so its really just the center dot which i like better.
The Vortex are both heavier and longer but also cheaper- really hard to decide.

By the way here is an image of the rifle:

 

[freedom71]

March 4.5-28x52? Great glass and reticle choices. Compact with 12.5 inch length and 30 oz weight.

 

[Denns]

March 4.5-28x52? Great glass and reticle choices. Compact with 12.5 inch length and 30 oz weight.

Well the March is 3600$ here thats like double the price of the Vortex 3-18.
Too expensive for me.....

 

[beetroot]

Well the March is 3600$ here thats like double the price of the Vortex 3-18.
Too expensive for me.....

How important is weight?

If it's not go for the Razor 3-18, if it is go for the ZP5 3-15.
Either way keep a look out for a good deal on a 5-20 SB, if nothing else they look bloody cool on an AR.

 

[Denns]

How important is weight?

If it's not go for the Razor 3-18, if it is go for the ZP5 3-15.
Either way keep a look out for a good deal on a 5-20 SB, if nothing else they look bloody cool on an AR.

To be honest weight is probably not that important as the rifle will be used from the bench or lying on the ground.
Why would you go for the 3-18? According to the Specs the 4.5-27 is the same size and weight.

 

[Denns]

Case is closed, i got the Razor 4.5-27x56 in a bundle with a Audere Cantilever mount for 2300$ (shipping included) directly from the Audere online shop in San Marino.

Here this bundle would cost me 3100$, so i had to get this deal.

Thanks for all the advises! I know this scope isn't exactly compact but after thinking what this rifle will be used for, it might be the best fit and bang for the buck.

Also I could probably even make profit when reselling it due to the high price here. So I pretty much can't loose anything.

 

[beetroot]

To be honest weight is probably not that important as the rifle will be used from the bench or lying on the ground.
Why would you go for the 3-18? According to the Specs the 4.5-27 is the same size and weight.

I like the 3-20ish mag range, the reticle in the 3-18 used to be a little thicker than in the 4.5-27 which I also like (not sure if that's still the the case).

But yes most folks go for the 4.5-27 as both are so heavy the 2oz weight saving on the 3-18 is insignificant.

 

[Denns]

I like the 3-20ish mag range, the reticle in the 3-18 used to be a little thicker than in the 4.5-27 which I also like (not sure if that's still the the case).

But yes most folks go for the 4.5-27 as both are so heavy the 2oz weight saving on the 3-18 is insignificant.

I went with the 4.5-27 because I normally like high mag and if i find it to be too heavy the 3-18 would also be too heavy. The 4.5-27 is probably easier to resell because its in the mag range that most long range shooters use here. Most of them use like 5-25 and so on. I don't see scopes with less than 20x very often so i thought i better grab the "big" Vortex.

 

[SD Carpenter]

Since you put zco on the table, save up for that 4-20. Last scope you'll need.

 

[catalin693]

Use this all day long on my gas 308 and love it, especially in that 600 to 800 range. I like great optics like the next person but there's something to be said about getting it done at this price range!

Primary Arms SLx 4-14x44mm FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-HUD-DMR-308/223​

 

[Originalist Trigger]

I went back and forth with the same question and decided to put NightForce 1-8x ATACR on my 16” DD 7.62 and I really like the versatility it gives me to run very close to a 1x for close-in moving targets, out to 1000 yards with the 8x, and everything in between.

 

[LRRPF52]

I’ve been shooting scoped AR-10s for 20 years now. The most overlooked consideration in these discussions is the scope durability to handle the reciprocating mass effects that resonate back through the scope when the huge BCG slams back into battery.

That narrows down your choices to high quality optics that use epoxy to permanently secure the optical modules and lenses into the scope body, as well as the use of upper-end brass for the erector gears.

An AR-10 is a great way to find out what will fail quickly. I personally have only used scopes that take the beating and like it, but have seen people show up to courses over the years with optics that aren’t built as described above, and those will crap the bed quickly.

My quick response is to mainly look at NF and upper-end Vortex (Viper PST Gen II being the threshold, though I never had issues with Gen I PSTs that I have used on my .260 Rem gasser).

OP did well by going with a Razor GII. Those have the epoxied optical modules and lenses with good brass and springs.

The scopes that fail are just not worth it to even entertain.

If you’re looking for low price point on an AR-10 variable power optic, you are approaching the solution wrong because it’s going to cost you more in the long run when the cheap option fails, and you have to then go buy the one that will actually work.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I’ve been shooting scoped AR-10s for 20 years now. The most overlooked consideration in these discussions is the scope durability to handle the reciprocating mass effects that resonate back through the scope when the huge BCG slams back into battery.

That narrows down your choices to high quality optics that use epoxy to permanently secure the optical modules and lenses into the scope body, as well as the use of upper-end brass for the erector gears.

An AR-10 is a great way to find out what will fail quickly. I personally have only used scopes that take the beating and like it, but have seen people show up to courses over the years with optics that aren’t built as described above, and those will crap the bed quickly.

My quick response is to mainly look at NF and upper-end Vortex (Viper PST Gen II being the threshold, though I never had issues with Gen I PSTs that I have used on my .260 Rem gasser).

OP did well by going with a Razor GII. Those have the epoxied optical modules and lenses with good brass and springs.

The scopes that fail are just not worth it to even entertain.

If you’re looking for low price point on an AR-10 variable power optic, you are approaching the solution wrong because it’s going to cost you more in the long run when the cheap option fails, and you have to then go buy the one that will actually work.

agree and solid points. I favor the Burris scopes, built like tanks and I've yet to have a single issue with repeated abuse from the large frame ARs. I did send one back but the abuse was not from a AR10 but from years of purposeful abuse to see how much it could take.

 

[NC_Libertarian]

Reticle is P4F so pretty basic but would do it for me i guess.
ZP5 would come with the MR5 reticle only, so also a basic one as far as i know.

Austria you can own pretty much anything here you guys in the US can except full autos. (Yeah i know the issues with the 1986 ban but still you can own one)
The only thing is that I sadly can't own a unlimited number of semi auto guns. Bolt and break action is not regulated so you can buy as much as you want as long as you are over 18 years old but for semi autos and handguns you need a license which is limited.

Do you have any magazine capacity or military-caliber restrictions?