Concentricity oddites

dm1779

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 7, 2011
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Seattle, WA
I've got the sinclair's concentricity gauge as well as the hornady concentricity gauge. I've neck turned all the brass so that I'm getting .002" or less runout on the necks prior to bullet seating as there was a problem with neck thickness on the brass.

I'm using the Forster Ultra Micrometer seater with Hornady 168gr A-Max bullets. Now the oddity is that when I check it on the Sinclair's gauge using the hornady dial or the sinclair dial, I'm getting .004" runout. However, when I'm using the Hornady concentricity gauge I'm getting at most .002" using either dial.

Thoughts?
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DM.Oakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got the sinclair's concentricity gauge as well as the hornady concentricity gauge. I've neck turned all the brass so that I'm getting .002" or less runout on the necks prior to bullet seating as there was a problem with neck thickness on the brass.

I'm using the Forster Ultra Micrometer seater with Hornady 168gr A-Max bullets. Now the oddity is that when I check it on the Sinclair's gauge using the hornady dial or the sinclair dial, I'm getting .004" runout. However, when I'm using the Hornady concentricity gauge I'm getting at most .002" using either dial.

Thoughts? </div></div>
Are you sure you are following the Hornady tool measurement procedure correctly? Given the more complex lathe type design of the Hornady tool and they way the case is supported I think it is very easy to take measurements that are not actually measurements of case runout so much as how well you centered the case in the lathe.

The very simple Sinclair tool on the other hand is better designed to support the case using the case to define the axis for the dial indicator. Using two fixed points this tool will measure total runout or TIR.

HTH!
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

A point of clarification. The only thing I'm using the Hornady tool for is post bullet seating/concentricity checking. The Sinclair tool is being used post resizing/neck turning and post bullet seating.
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

The difference is in how they support the case.

It's pretty common to see no error with the hornady but the Sinclair tends to show if there's anything at all.
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DM.Oakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A point of clarification. The only thing I'm using the Hornady tool for is post bullet seating/concentricity checking. The Sinclair tool is being used post resizing/neck turning and post bullet seating. </div></div>
O.K. So let's think about what operation(s) do they disagree on.

Please realize that these tools take different measurements from a loaded round due to the way they were designed.

The Hornady gauge measures bullet concentricity relative to bullet tip and case head. This is the wobble in the middle of the bullet of the loaded round using an imaginary axis from bullet tip to base of the case. The Hornady gauge cannot tell you if the measured wobble is on the same axis as the rifle's chamber and barrel only how much wobble it sees. In other words the Hornady gauge can tell you how much wobble there is in the bullet on an axis between the bullet tip and base but NOT if that axis is on the same axis as the chamber and barrel bore.

In contrast the Sinclair gauge measures bullet tip and body concentricity relative to the case axis which corresponds very well with the rifle chamber and barrel bore axis. This is the wobble at the tip of the loaded round and the wobble in the middle of the loaded round. By using the sized and loaded case OD to define the where the axis of the bullet should be relative to the chamber and case the Sinclair gauge gives you information useful for setting up your work process and dies to yield chamber and barrel bore concentric ammunition.

The Sinclair gauge also gives you useful information about your cases but your post was about bullet runout.
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DM.Oakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A point of clarification. The only thing I'm using the Hornady tool for is post bullet seating/concentricity checking. The Sinclair tool is being used post resizing/neck turning and post bullet seating. </div></div>
O.K. So let's think about what operation(s) do they disagree on.

Please realize that these tools take different measurements from a loaded round due to the way they were designed.

The Hornady gauge measures bullet concentricity relative to bullet tip and case head. This is the wobble in the middle of the bullet of the loaded round using an imaginary axis from bullet tip to base of the case. The Hornady gauge cannot tell you if the measured wobble is on the same axis as the rifle's chamber and barrel only how much wobble it sees. In other words the Hornady gauge can tell you how much wobble there is in the bullet on an axis between the bullet tip and base but NOT if that axis is on the same axis as the chamber and barrel bore.

In contrast the Sinclair gauge measures bullet tip and body concentricity relative to the case axis which corresponds very well with the rifle chamber and barrel bore axis. This is the wobble at the tip of the loaded round and the wobble in the middle of the loaded round. By using the sized and loaded case OD to define the where the axis of the bullet should be relative to the chamber and case the Sinclair gauge gives you information useful for setting up your work process and dies to yield chamber and barrel bore concentric ammunition.

The Sinclair gauge also gives you useful information about your cases but your post was about bullet runout.

</div></div>

YAOG - Thank you for this information. I'm just trying to keep myself from getting frustrated in this process. I think I'll just stick to my newly acquired Sinclair gauge and sell/toss out the Hornady gauge.
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DM.Oakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DM.Oakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A point of clarification. The only thing I'm using the Hornady tool for is post bullet seating/concentricity checking. The Sinclair tool is being used post resizing/neck turning and post bullet seating. </div></div>
O.K. So let's think about what operation(s) do they disagree on.

Please realize that these tools take different measurements from a loaded round due to the way they were designed.

The Hornady gauge measures bullet concentricity relative to bullet tip and case head. This is the wobble in the middle of the bullet of the loaded round using an imaginary axis from bullet tip to base of the case. The Hornady gauge cannot tell you if the measured wobble is on the same axis as the rifle's chamber and barrel only how much wobble it sees. In other words the Hornady gauge can tell you how much wobble there is in the bullet on an axis between the bullet tip and base but NOT if that axis is on the same axis as the chamber and barrel bore.

In contrast the Sinclair gauge measures bullet tip and body concentricity relative to the case axis which corresponds very well with the rifle chamber and barrel bore axis. This is the wobble at the tip of the loaded round and the wobble in the middle of the loaded round. By using the sized and loaded case OD to define the where the axis of the bullet should be relative to the chamber and case the Sinclair gauge gives you information useful for setting up your work process and dies to yield chamber and barrel bore concentric ammunition.

The Sinclair gauge also gives you useful information about your cases but your post was about bullet runout.</div></div>

YAOG - Thank you for this information. I'm just trying to keep myself from getting frustrated in this process. I think I'll just stick to my newly acquired Sinclair gauge and sell/toss out the Hornady gauge.</div></div>

Just because I can't figure out exactly how to use the information the Hornady gauge provides to improve finished ammo doesn't mean it isn't useful. So I wouldn't toss it out quite yet, Hornady is not a bunch of dummies and this information must be useful in some way. I just do not know how it is useful for how I think about building precision ammunition.

HTH!
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flashhole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">YAOG - can you comment about the Forster concentricity gage. </div></div>
Flash,

I only had a brief look at the Forster gauge some time ago but as I recall it can be used to make the same empty case measurements as the Sinclair gauge using the case axis. But if I'm remembering correctly the Forster gauge makes bullet runout measurements in a similar fashion as the Hornady relying on support of the bullet tip which moves the axis of measurement to an artificial line between the tip and the V-block on the base of the gauge.

So as I recall anyway the Forster is good for empty case measurements but presents the same issues as the Hornady gauge does by giving measurements on an axis that is not in line with the chamber, barrel and bore.

The Forster gauge can also be used to make case neck thickness measurements like the Redding case neck tool. I think you have to buy a pilot to act as an anvil for the indicator.

I looked at all this stuff some time ago and it's been a while since I looked at these tools though so don't hold me to all of it. But I think this is why I bought the Sinclair tool as it was the only tool I could put my hands on at a reasonable price that used the case / chamber / bore as the axis to measure from for both empty cases and finished rounds. I also liked the NECO tool but it cost a lot and seemed to be trying to do too much which made using it finicky and less consistent.

HTH!

 
Re: Concentricity oddites

I have both gauges and understand the way they are designed to measure runout. The Sinclair lets you check for runout anywhere on the case or loaded round, and it will tell you how much there is.

The Hornady measures runout between the case base and bullet tip so maybe not as "true" a reading as with the Sinclair - but. With the Hornady there is a built in screw-jack to reduce or take out the observed runout.

Checking the "corrected" rounds from the Hornady with the Sinclair shows me a great improvement. Not trying for perfection, but +/- .00015" is much better then +/- .002".

OFG
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

You can get REALLY anal and get a Vern Juenke machine to tell you if your bullet cores are concentric in their jackets.

Some benchrest loading techniques are great, as long as they don't keep you from actually SHOOTING.
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can get REALLY anal and get a Vern Juenke machine to tell you if your bullet cores are concentric in their jackets.

Some benchrest loading techniques are great, as long as they don't keep you from actually SHOOTING. </div></div>

THIS^^
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It hardly matters what gages "say", they both tell you there's runout and your goal is 0.0"; work on that. </div></div>

Actually it can make a difference. With the Hornady gauge it can read 0.000" and still not be concentric with the chamber and barrel bore. This error will show up on the Sinclair gauge.

HTH!
 
Re: Concentricity oddites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldfatguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have both gauges and understand the way they are designed to measure runout. The Sinclair lets you check for runout anywhere on the case or loaded round, and it will tell you how much there is.

The Hornady measures runout between the case base and bullet tip so maybe not as "true" a reading as with the Sinclair - but. With the Hornady there is a built in screw-jack to reduce or take out the observed runout.

Checking the "corrected" rounds from the Hornady with the Sinclair shows me a great improvement. Not trying for perfection, but +/- .00015" is much better then +/- .002".

OFG </div></div>
I prefer to make assemble my rounds straight in the first place. Obviously YMMV.