Condensation

[Cascade Hemi]

I'm doing load development at a new range and have new weather conditions. I think I have been struggling with condensation in the bore for a while but didn't recognize it. It took the symptoms getting worse before it became more obvious. Yesterday was 20 degrees and 70%+ humidity. The first string for each rifle was fine. However, the first shot of every subsequent string, after the bore had been left open, had high pressure and lower velocity (-20fps to -40fps). Brass came out wet and the suppressor is certainly made it worse. The loads are well below max at around 55kPSI and the bores are clean. This is replicated on multiple bolt actions and different cartridges. ES for unaffected strings were all 20fps or less.

This is a new one to me and I'm wondering what you guys in similar climates to do mitigate it? The range is 5000' and temps run sub zero in the winter to mid 90's in the summer with humidity between 40% and 80%. I've lived in either the low or high desert since the 90's and never had humidity greater than 40%. Is the solution to drag cleaning gear to the range and swab/mop the bore before each new string?

 

[spife7980]

Run a chamber chiller, keep the air moving to reduce accumulation?

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Metal absorbs water. As a pipe welder, we preheated the metal and could actually see the water dripping off of the pipe. I'd suggest heating your weapons in a dry environment before heading out to the range in 20 degree weather.
The hunter who is out in weather just has to work with it but usually that is a one or two shot situation.

Look at the condensation cooking out of the pipe.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Run a chamber chiller, keep the air moving to reduce accumulation?

I have one. I did try it but couldn't see results so I don't know if it worked.

 

[Aftermath]

Run a chamber chiller, keep the air moving to reduce accumulation?

Or just the opposite. Keep it warm enough to not allow condensation as it cools off.

EDIT TO ADD: I don't even know if I have ever had this be an issue.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Metal absorbs water. As a pipe welder, we preheated the metal and could actually see the water dripping off of the pipe. I'd suggest heating your weapons in a dry environment before heading out to the range in 20 degree weather.
The hunter who is out in weather just has to work with it but usually that is a one or two shot situation.

Look at the condensation cooking out of the pipe.


View attachment 8279536

LOL. This is an old wives tail that welders who don't actually understand what's happening have perpetuated for years.

Steel absorbs almost zero water. What you're seeing on the outside of the flame is because the gas being used for the flame is a hydrocarbon. When you consume a hydrocarbon in a chemical reaction such as a flame, the byproducts are carbon dioxide and water. This leads to the incorrect assumptions of "sweating the steal" or "cooking the water out."

Preheating for welding is done for two reasons:

1: avoid hard crystallization

2: remove condensation on the *outside* and *inside* surfaces. Not from inside the metal.


I'm sure you are/were very good at your job. But it's a very common occurrence in these type of trades for very skilled workers to not know exactly why/what things are happening.



Your barrel isn't absorbing water.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

LOL. This is an old wives tail that welders who don't actually understand what's happening have perpetuated for years.

Steel absorbs almost zero water. What you're seeing on the outside of the flame is because the gas being used for the flame is a hydrocarbon. When you consume a hydrocarbon in a chemical reaction such as a flame, the byproducts are carbon dioxide and water. This leads to the incorrect assumptions of "sweating the steal" or "cooking the water out."

Preheating for welding is done for two reasons:

1: avoid hard crystallization

2: remove condensation on the *outside* and *inside* surfaces. Not from inside the metal.


I'm sure you are/were very good at your job. But it's a very common occurrence in these type of trades for very skilled workers to not know exactly why/what things are happening.



Your barrel isn't absorbing water.

Well guy's you have heard from the would be metallurgist. His comments earned him a spot on my "Ignore" list.
_____________
Embrittlement process At room temperature, hydrogen atoms can be absorbed by carbon steel alloys. The absorbed hydrogen may be present either as atomic or molecular form. Given enough time, the hydrogen diffuses to the metal grain boundaries and forms bubbles at the metal grain boundaries.

Hydrogen embrittlement - article and video explanation

Hydrogen embrittlement is a metal’s loss of ductility and reduction of load bearing capability due to absorption of hydrogen by the metal. ARTICLE AND VIDEO

www.imetllc.com

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Well guy's you have heard from the would be metallurgist. His comments earned him a spot on my "Ignore" list.
_____________
Embrittlement process At room temperature, hydrogen atoms can be absorbed by carbon steel alloys. The absorbed hydrogen may be present either as atomic or molecular form. Given enough time, the hydrogen diffuses to the metal grain boundaries and forms bubbles at the metal grain boundaries.

Hydrogen embrittlement - article and video explanation

Hydrogen embrittlement is a metal’s loss of ductility and reduction of load bearing capability due to absorption of hydrogen by the metal. ARTICLE AND VIDEO

www.imetllc.com

LOL. You have no idea what you just posted is exactly what I said and has zero to do with "metal absorbs water." And condensation doesn't "cook out of pipe."

Pro tip: "hydrogen embrittlement" is hard crystallization. And has literally zero to do with water inside the metal. They hydrogen you're avoiding with the preheating isn't the hydrogen in H2O. It's the hydrogen that isn't able to be released due to rapid cooling. Hence the preheat. This literally has zero to do with any H2O inside the metal.

Also, in that picture you provided, the condensation on the pipe is actually a product of the flame. That's why you'll never see the "water cooking out of the pipe" anywhere else except outside of the flame. I.E. even if the other side of the pipe is the same temperature of the side you have the flame on, there won't be the condensation.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Metal absorbs water. As a pipe welder, we preheated the metal and could actually see the water dripping off of the pipe. I'd suggest heating your weapons in a dry environment before heading out to the range in 20 degree weather.
The hunter who is out in weather just has to work with it but usually that is a one or two shot situation.

Look at the condensation cooking out of the pipe.


View attachment 8279536

Metal does not absorb water.

Consumables Corner: The reasons for and misconceptions about preheating steel

Q: We are expanding our job shop and adding the capability to work with much heavier structures, including considerably thicker materials. Some of these jobs

www.thefabricator.com

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Your barrel isn't absorbing water.

The thread title is "condensation" which I believe is an accurate assessment of the issue I am experiencing. I think so far the most logical solutions are not to leave the breach open; ie keeping the barrel warm, and a bore snake or rod and mop.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The thread title is "condensation" which I believe is an accurate assessment of the issue I am experiencing. I think so far the most logical solutions are not to leave the breach open; ie keeping the barrel warm, and a bore snake or rod and mop.

I agree. Was just making sure someone didn't come along and read his post and think the barrel is somehow absorbing water or storing water.

I'd personally use a mop or something to remove as much condensation from the bore and chamber as possible.

 

[Haney]

Another thread turns to shit .

 

[bax]

I'm doing load development at a new range and have new weather conditions. I think I have been struggling with condensation in the bore for a while but didn't recognize it. It took the symptoms getting worse before it became more obvious. Yesterday was 20 degrees and 70%+ humidity. The first string for each rifle was fine. However, the first shot of every subsequent string, after the bore had been left open, had high pressure and lower velocity (-20fps to -40fps). Brass came out wet and the suppressor is certainly made it worse. The loads are well below max at around 55kPSI and the bores are clean. This is replicated on multiple bolt actions and different cartridges. ES for unaffected strings were all 20fps or less.

This is a new one to me and I'm wondering what you guys in similar climates to do mitigate it? The range is 5000' and temps run sub zero in the winter to mid 90's in the summer with humidity between 40% and 80%. I've lived in either the low or high desert since the 90's and never had humidity greater than 40%. Is the solution to drag cleaning gear to the range and swab/mop the bore before each new string?

I'm not sure what the current name is for this but water dissolves into air. As the temperature increases, air holds more water. When you heat a tea kettle and steam comes out, that steam is invisible. The water/air mixture called steam looks like air because the high-temperature water is dissolved in the high-temperature air. As the steam mixes with the surrounding room air, the mixture cools. Cooler air cannot dissolve as much water so the excess condenses and it looks like a cloud. At any given temperature if the relative humidity exceed 100% water starts to condense (we call it precipitation) as small droplets. Given air with 100% relative humidity, there is more water in 200F air than 100F air, or 20F air.

If the relative humidity is 70% at the ambient temperature 20F, water should not condense on a surface at the same temperature - 20F air, 20F surface, there is not heat exchange, neither the air nor the surface is cooled, no condensation. If you breathe on that 20F surface, you are blowing 80-90F air (the approximate temperature of air that you exhale) containing some moisture against a 20F surface. 80F air can hold that much water, 20F air cannot. The surface cools the air and if RH at the new temperature exceeds 100%, moisture will condense.

You are shooting a rifle in cold weather. In order for moisture to condense on the gun, you need a cold gun and a source of warm moist air. You are seeing water. Where is that water coming from? When you fire a round, most of the powder decomposes into nitrates, CO2 and water and the gas/water/air mixture is hot. Maybe that is where the water is coming from. Is there some other source of warm moist air?

By the way, this is just about the water, it may not explain your other signs.

I lived in Denver for about 15 years, shot in all seasons in several locations in that area, and never saw this effect.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I'm not sure what the current name is for this but water dissolves into air. As the temperature increases, air holds more water. When you heat a tea kettle and steam comes out, that steam is invisible. The water/air mixture called steam looks like air because the high-temperature water is dissolved in the high-temperature air. As the steam mixes with the surrounding room air, the mixture cools. Cooler air cannot dissolve as much water so the excess condenses and it looks like a cloud. At any given temperature if the relative humidity exceed 100% water starts to condense (we call it precipitation) as small droplets. Given air with 100% relative humidity, there is more water in 200F air than 100F air, or 20F air.

If the relative humidity is 70% at the ambient temperature 20F, water should not condense on a surface at the same temperature - 20F air, 20F surface, there is not heat exchange, neither the air nor the surface is cooled, no condensation. If you breathe on that 20F surface, you are blowing 80-90F air (the approximate temperature of air that you exhale) containing some moisture against a 20F surface. 80F air can hold that much water, 20F air cannot. The surface cools the air and if RH at the new temperature exceeds 100%, moisture will condense.

You are shooting a rifle in cold weather. In order for moisture to condense on the gun, you need a cold gun and a source of warm moist air. You are seeing water. Where is that water coming from? When you fire a round, most of the powder decomposes into nitrates, CO2 and water and the gas/water/air mixture is hot. Maybe that is where the water is coming from. Is there some other source of warm moist air?

By the way, this is just about the water, it may not explain your other signs.

I lived in Denver for about 15 years, shot in all seasons in several locations in that area, and never saw this effect.

I've been turning this over in my head since I posted this because it doesn't quite add up. You're right, whatever I have going on is the opposite of condensation. It is water and humidity related though. One of the by products of suppressors is water.

I recall a conversation with a local shooter a few years ago when we discussed chamber fans. His comment at the time was they had caused him condensation issues. In this instance I experienced water in the bore prior to trying the chamber fan. I think my next outing will include a bore mop and rod/patches. If that works I will reevaluate from there. I'm not sure what the solution is though.

I appreciate your input.

 

[ZA206]

This happened to me on an elk hunt with a muzzle loader. Had it in the wall tent with me at lunch (huddled near the stove), went out in 35F sleeting weather for an evening hunt. Had an awesome 6x6 bull at 20 yards and got the dreaded “click”. Game over.

When I hooked up with my buddy, he tried to shoot his and it went click as well. Lesson learned. Never bring a muzzle loader into the tent… leave it in the truck or case outside so it always stays at ambient temp (cold) so it won’t start sweating in cold damp weather.
”keep yer powder dry” and all that…

 

[ZA206]

The phenomenon is a warm/hot surface getting condensation on it in cold + damp weather. This happens QUICK!
Shooting the gun (heating it up) will keep the issue going, the suppressor gets really warm and has lots of surface area, so lots of condensation!

 

[Marine52]

The phenomenon is a warm/hot surface getting condensation on it in cold + damp weather. This happens QUICK!
Shooting the gun (heating it up) will keep the issue going, the suppressor gets really warm and has lots of surface area, so lots of condensation!

No, it’s the opposite. Condensation occurs when moist air cools to its dew point (the temperature at which the air can no longer hold water). Remember, warm air can hold more water than cooler air. When the warmer humid air contacts a colder surface, the air temp at the contact point falls to the dew point and condensation occurs. Like a bottle of beer removed from the frig outside in July in Alabama.

 

[Slides]

LOL at someone not comprehending products of combustion condensing. Question then, do you see this "sweating" around argon or CO2 shielded weld that still get to similar temperatures?

Suggesting hydrogen migration in steel is the same as water, decades of emulsion based longwall hydraulic systems not having embrittlement failures like high pressure hydrogen storage at the same pressures (with far less vibration), even if you refuse to read the academic papers suggests otherwise. Every longwall pumpstation pipe, manifold, fitting and cylinder would be pissing out water.

 

[supercorndogs]

No, its the opposite. Condensation occurs when moist air cools to its dew point (the temperature at which the air can no longer hold water). Remember, warm air can hold more water than cooler air. When the warmer humid air contacts a colder surface, the air temp at the contact point falls to the dew point and condensation occurs. Like a bottle of beer removed from the frig outside in July in Alabama.

Simpler explanation.

Cold in car. Warm breath fog windsheild.

150 in car. Cool breathe not fog windshield.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

LOL at someone not comprehending products of combustion condensing. Question then, do you see this "sweating" around argon or CO2 shielded weld that still get to similar temperatures?

Suggesting hydrogen migration in steel is the same as water, decades of emulsion based longwall hydraulic systems not having embrittlement failures like high pressure hydrogen storage at the same pressures (with far less vibration), even if you refuse to read the academic papers suggests otherwise. Every longwall pumpstation pipe, manifold, fitting and cylinder would be pissing out water.

LOL. His double down on the hydrogen migration was amazing. One of the best double downs on the hide.

 

[Gemsbok]

PV=nRT

Powder burn produces water.
High pressure and heat in barrel keeps water in gas form.
Sudden pressure drop and cooler temps in muffler allows water vapor to cool to liquid form.
Muffler rusts through from the inside, outwards (oh, wait that's the truck in Wisco winters).
Vapor in can prevents first round pop.
Accumulated liquid from first string drains from can through muzzle into barrel when rifle is tipped muffler up.
Heat all the hardware above the dewpoint and you might still get condensation in the can from the sudden pressure drop.

All conjecture (except the truck muffler).
Never noticed it myself, but I'll be looking for it this winter.

 

[BiggBeans]

Damn, you guys over here arguing about rifle barrels absorbing water. And im just over here like…..

 

[ZA206]

No, it’s the opposite. Condensation occurs when moist air cools to its dew point (the temperature at which the air can no longer hold water). Remember, warm air can hold more water than cooler air. When the warmer humid air contacts a colder surface, the air temp at the contact point falls to the dew point and condensation occurs. Like a bottle of beer removed from the frig outside in July in Alabama.

Im well versed in thermodynamics (professional mechanical engineer) and I’m telling you it can happen. Condensation on a cold surface in a warm humid environment is obviously common and what everyone knows.

Most people have not directly experienced what I’m talking about. The conditions for it to happen must be way less common and it has to be probably be +80% relative humidity and cold (rare combo) for it to happen. You won’t see it on a cold dry day. If you haven’t seen this happen, it’s hard to believe it. It might be some other crazy partial pressure sort of deal instead of classic psychrometrics.

If you read about the lengths that muzzleloader hunters go through to keep their powder dry (it’s not just from rain), it might lend some credence to what I’m talking about. I was a bow hunter and that one year we had to take muzzleloader tags bc it’s all we could get.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

While I'm not as versed as the above poster, I have learned to accept that in thermodynamics (at least in these situations).....nothing isn absolute insofar as what we can perceive without instrumentation.

It's not very common, but you can find situations where both hot and cold water piping has condensation even though the cold pipe is cold to the touch and the hot pipe is hot to the touch.

Things like this will behave statistically....meaning the cold surface needs less things to align to condensate......and the hot surface will need several more things in the environment to happen. Hence the latter be far less common.



Personally, if there wasn't something completely obvious I could "fix" with the barrel having moisture inside....I wouldn't wrack my brain about it. I'd just take proper kit to the range to keep it dry before shooting. There's several things that could be happening that you may or may not be able to prevent.


Except the barrel/metal absorbing water..........

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Follow up:

It's been cold and I haven't felt like doing load development. This morning was 37° and 75% humidity. I brought a cleaning rod and patches with the intent of dry patching the bore.

Before dealing with patches I just left the bolt closed at all times. That seems to work. It wasn't as cold as last time but the random pressure is gone. It makes sense, there's no airflow with the bolt forward.

 

[n2ishun]

Well duh, wring the moisture out of the barrel.

Seriously...
Is it possible to have 70% humidity in 20F temps ?
I have this sneaking suspicion this has slipped past y'all.
It would be called.....snow, and the air would still be dry as air that cold cannot hold moisture but releases it as snow/sleet.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Is it possible to have 70% humidity in 20F temps ?

I think we're talking relative humidity, what the kestrel and weather stations spit out.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Well duh, wring the moisture out of the barrel.

Seriously...
Is it possible to have 70% humidity in 20F temps ?
I have this sneaking suspicion this has slipped past y'all.
It would be called.....snow, and the air would still be dry as air that cold cannot hold moisture but releases it as snow/sleet.

Relative Humidity, not Absolute Humidity.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Well duh, wring the moisture out of the barrel.

Seriously...
Is it possible to have 70% humidity in 20F temps ?
I have this sneaking suspicion this has slipped past y'all.
It would be called.....snow, and the air would still be dry as air that cold cannot hold moisture but releases it as snow/sleet.

Anytime you see % used with humidity.....it's relative humidity. Hence the use of %, as you're describing a fraction of how much moisture the air can hold.

So yes, you can always have any number up to 100% humidity at any temp.

Absolute humidity would use another metric like grams per cubed meters.

 

[bax]

Consider 100% relative humidity at minus 20 F. When this happens in Anchorage Alaska and the wind is nearly but not quite calm, it is called ice fog and the ice collects on the trees and bushes - they look like white sausages.

 

[n2ishun]

white sausage

Why thank you, I have been known to get around....

 

[Seth W]

LOL. This is an old wives tail that welders who don't actually understand what's happening have perpetuated for years.

Steel absorbs almost zero water. What you're seeing on the outside of the flame is because the gas being used for the flame is a hydrocarbon. When you consume a hydrocarbon in a chemical reaction such as a flame, the byproducts are carbon dioxide and water. This leads to the incorrect assumptions of "sweating the steal" or "cooking the water out."

Preheating for welding is done for two reasons:

1: avoid hard crystallization

2: remove condensation on the *outside* and *inside* surfaces. Not from inside the metal.


I'm sure you are/were very good at your job. But it's a very common occurrence in these type of trades for very skilled workers to not know exactly why/what things are happening.



Your barrel isn't absorbing water.

God, I'm glad I didn't have to say it first, and I ws going to. I weld cast aluminum at work, and preheat the thing with a torch similar to what's shown in that post. At first, the aluminum gets all wet, like a lot. As you keep the torch on it, it dries up. It's the water condensing on the cooler (but now getting hotter) aluminum, coming from the fuel. (Propane) I explained this to my co workers, and I don't think they believed me, either, that the fuel contains water.