Night Vision Confused on clip-on vs. dedicated thermal

[IW21]

I've googled my brains out on this one. I have ZERO experience with thermal's, and I don't have an endless budget. My budget is however 5k. And the two rigs that I have to work with are an AI AT and an ar10. The AT has a S&B 3-27 and the AR10 has an aimpoint comp m4s.

I'd like to run just a clip on, so I'm not taking optics on and off just to run a stand alone thermal scope. Gimme you're thoughts....

 

[Soulezoo]

There are other threads in this section that address your question.

However, generally speaking, dedicated > clip on.

 

[wigwamitus]

Budget for REAL thermal clipons starts well over $10k.

LWTS-LR around $15k

UTC-xii around $20k

You will be disappointed with thermal clipons under $10k


==
For a bolt gun, the HALO-LR will work. I think pinkit has a HALO (nada LR) up for sale for around $5k ish.

==
For a stoner (AR-10) any dedicated thermal will work.

==
Another option is thermal spotter for around $3k and the SIMRAD NV clipon for around $2k.

 

[deersniper]

^that.


But a LWTS just sold for $7500 and it’s a pretty solid thermal. Can handle 6x maybe 8x. Which is a good bit at night.

Those PVS27s for 3500-4000 are smoking deals for night vision sion clip ons that people have used to shoot a mile.

 

[wigwamitus]

Yeah, my $10k threshold was me thinking about new-ish/msrp-ish pricing ... used units such as the LWTS can be found under $10k.

 

[RyanScott]

Are you going to shoot living things or things that aren’t warm?

 

[IW21]

Are you going to shoot living things or things that aren’t warm?

Hogs and coyotes on my property. Maybe bang the steel

 

[PlinkIt]

With your budget dedicated thermal over clip-on is 100% the way to go

I don't know about clip-on units in wigs budget, but just as he said the ones you will get with your 5k budget won't leave you happy

Need to make a solid assessment of where / how you plan to hunt.
Do you have any other night equipment?

 

[IW21]

Budget for REAL thermal clipons starts well over $10k.

LWTS-LR around $15k

UTC-xii around $20k

You will be disappointed with thermal clipons under $10k


==
For a bolt gun, the HALO-LR will work. I think pinkit has a HALO (nada LR) up for sale for around $5k ish.

==
For a stoner (AR-10) any dedicated thermal will work.

==
Another option is thermal spotter for around $3k and the SIMRAD NV clipon for around $2k.

So something like the Flir Apollo Pro MR is junk?

 

[IW21]

With your budget dedicated thermal over clip-on is 100% the way to go

I don't know about clip-on units in wigs budget, but just as he said the ones you will get with your 5k budget won't leave you happy

Need to make a solid assessment of where / how you plan to hunt.
Do you have any other night equipment?

I have 120 acres and we're getting some hogs and coyotes making rounds through the property. I literally could set up in one spot and just knock them out once a week or until they get the idea. So I don't need something that I can see a tick on a boars ass at 1k yards. Just to clarify ?

 

[wigwamitus]

The Apollo's are not junk ... but they usually cost way more than they're worth.

For under 300yds ... the under $10k clipons will work. But not usually worth the trouble. These low cost (under $10k MSRP) clipons do not have collimating lens on the rear, so must be "adjusted" for the rifle/scope combination. And repeatability for these mounts can cause 1 to 2 moa shifts in POI. That characterization is an average. For a given mount, clipon, results may vary. But this is the key issue with the commercial thermal clipons, the lack of collimating lens on the rear end. And the requirement to manage the resulting POI shifts.

 

[wigwamitus]

But iike if your going after hogs at an average of 100yds .. between say 75 and 150 yds ... even a 3 inch shift at 150yds is not a show stopper.
So it probably works for hogs .. IF you really really don't have a spare rifle you could use for your night rifle with a dedicated thermal.

==
But be aware, with something like the Apollo pro, you might have to change your rings on your day scope ... or you might need to update your chassis to add an NV mount, etc. And these changes are not free and will distrupt your day shooting activities.

 

[Geeb]

I had an Apollo pro LR 100mm and it was a pretty capable scope. I thought it was still fairly clear up to 6x. You can find decent deals on the LR and MR on eBay if you keep an eye out.

 

[IW21]

But iike if your going after hogs at an average of 100yds .. between say 75 and 150 yds ... even a 3 inch shift at 150yds is not a show stopper.
So it probably works for hogs .. IF you really really don't have a spare rifle you could use for your night rifle with a dedicated thermal.

==
But be aware, with something like the Apollo pro, you might have to change your rings on your day scope ... or you might need to update your chassis to add an NV mount, etc. And these changes are not free and will distrupt your day shooting activities.

Thanks for the replies! I guess removing the S&B to run a dedicated thermal wouldn't be so bad. I'd just have to check zero when I put it back on.

 

[PlinkIt]

You will also cut overall weight down quite a bit by going dedicated thermal vs S&B plus a clip on

If you only plan to shoot hogs at short distance then the the clip-on repeatability or the QD repeatability wouldn't even come into play I don't guess...

 

[pwc001]

Just pick up an AR-10 in the caliber you like. For 300 yards and under a 16” 308 will be fine. And grab a Pulsar thermal scope some even have lrf built in. You could stay around your budget with the whole package.

 

[SNOW JW]

Do you have a scanner? If not & you want to use your gun for a while weight is a factor so I would say dedicated.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You’re not getting a thermal clip that’s worth a crap for $5K. For $7-8K you can get a nice used LWTS which is a great unit but that’s as close as you’ll come to your budget and end up with something decent. Not sure how they will work with your RDS since I never tried mine with one but they work great up to 6x in worst conditions, and really good low humidity crisp nights you can push to 10x.

If your budget is $5K and you want to run what you have then you really can’t beat one of those PVS-27’s that’s available right now.

 

[Hootiewho]

As soon as you start shooting a few hogs they will scatter and avoid your place. You’ll need into the hundreds to thousands of acres to hold them on a property and kill them on the regular. A clip on like the 27 will work fine for coyotes and hogs here and there. There is a 27 on here now for around $4k. That would leave you with $1k to throw at a thermal scanner or IR illuminator.

 

[Markhammett]

With quality mounts taking optic on and off is not an issue as long as you put them back in the same spot. Manufacturers like larue, bobro, adm, and dloc I’ve never seen more than a 1 moa shift.

 

[IW21]

With quality mounts taking optic on and off is not an issue as long as you put them back in the same spot. Manufacturers like larue, bobro, adm, and dloc I’ve never seen more than a 1 moa shift.

My day optic sits in a spuhr so I'm not too worried

 

[IW21]

As soon as you start shooting a few hogs they will scatter and avoid your place. You’ll need into the hundreds to thousands of acres to hold them on a property and kill them on the regular. A clip on like the 27 will work fine for coyotes and hogs here and there. There is a 27 on here now for around $4k. That would leave you with $1k to throw at a thermal scanner or IR illuminator.

I don't know about that. I've taken a big sow already during the day. Then a week or so later I saw a few more back at it around dusk.

 

[Hogrider2000]

buy my CNVD-LR for 6K. and save and buy a thermal scanner later

 

[j-huskey]

I don't know about that. I've taken a big sow already during the day. Then a week or so later I saw a few more back at it around dusk.

As long as you kill the dominant sow FIRST, and as soon as possible, the other mature adults, you will have returns.
Leave the dominant sow and kill several young pigs, big momma will teach the young to avoid a feeder or fixed trap.
We killed a few over 1200 in 2019 off four farms here, and very little mileage variation over the last 10 years, you have to get big momma first. They are very very very smart.

I'm running 10 traps and 5 feeders, and some of my hunters ignored "kill big momma first".... and we are paying the price right now with two sounders. They wont come to the traps or feeders, so, plan B on them.

Best to you. It's some of the most fun you can have.

 

[jstokes1]

I'm selling my Halo ?‍

 

[IW21]

Thanks bud! This is the first I've ever messed with them. Pretty sure it's from all the high water pushing them our way, but hard telling. What really sucks is I'm recouping from back surgery so I'm limited on what I can do yet.

 

[Hogrider2000]

totally agree with Huskey about the dominant sow. Not only that but the piglets will stay or return looking for the sow, and you can get them also.
IW21, makr sure and listen to what the Dr says. It took a while but mine turned out good. Had a friend who did not listen and went out too soon, and six months later had a second surgery.

 

[IW21]

totally agree with Huskey about the dominant sow. Not only that but the piglets will stay or return looking for the sow, and you can get them also.
IW21, makr sure and listen to what the Dr says. It took a while but mine turned out good. Had a friend who did not listen and went out too soon, and six months later had a second surgery.

??. It's hard to do but only 3 more weeks and I start PT. So I'm praying I don't get to bored. Only thing saving me is I can at least get out and ride around the land. I think if I was stuck in a city I'd go cookoo

 

[WhereNow&How]

@IW21, if you really wanna have some fun. Just wound one of them little piglets slightly where it goes to squealing and then you get to play Big Game hunter just like a big male lion charging you and you better make the shot count.

That sow can do more damage to you than a boar under those conditions.

 

[Reverie Ranges]

One of the issues to bring up for distance shooting is that there is degradation of the image at higher power on your scope if you place anything in front of the objective lens. The power of the scope is "looking" into the pixels of any intensifier rather than directly at your target. A stand-alone thermal or NVG is an item that was designed to focus on a set distance, thus providing zoom with much less digital deformation at longer ranges. If you are only shooting short distances (500m or less) either one will do for shooting needs; its just shooter preference at that point...

 

[j-huskey]

My take on clip on NV. Yes, I have one. My first purchase pvs22. It still gets used.
It's more friendly than a 27 but not as effective.

IF you have a reasonably open pasture, and open wood lot around the pasture, on brighter nights the pigs will stand out very well, like inkjet black 30 gallon drums walking around. Seen a few that looked like 55 gallon drums.. . A few.

Those conditions, worked pasture and woods with a high browse line, or controlled understudy that you can see well into in daylight, a PVS27 and a good tripod and head will be very much usable. See Wigwamitus' pictures of his equipment in other threads.
The 27 is the original long range NV clip on. It's very big, heavy, and cumbersome, but its recoil rated up to a 50 cal. (If you have had recent surgery, this WILL NOT be your friend, big, heavy, cumbersome.)
And any 1-4/6/8 or 2-10 will work extremely well with it. This is in line with military design.
I hear people talk about higher power scope x working fine, and they may have been a some situations where it did, but IN MY experience, I have had very few times high x behind a 27 was beneficial to me on anything except identification and a single first shot.

On armed people, field of view is neccessary to identify any threats besides the initial target. That's very uncomfortable when you can only see 10-12 feet of view on high X and it has colored my outlook on any night work, a high level of fear stamps lessons home.
On pigs, coyotes, or other predators, the amount of work that goes into it, the difficulties that must be overcome to get rifle, sight, tripod, less than functional human body, etc, into shooting position, just getting off one shot doesnt cut it.
All that work for one dead pig, coyote, etc, can be a huge disappointment over time. In smaller areas, when the pigs scatter, with high X, I have had poor to no luck getting 2nd and 3rd kills. I have not had good experiences with high x because of limited field of view.
On lesser lighted nights, some illuminator will be needed. In the deep south, on high moisture nights, the burned powder fog hit by an illuminator can shut you down very quickly, and again high x sucks.
Foliage between you and the target can also cause washout with an illuminator and lost shots.
The wrong illumination can irritate the targets eyes and many will flee the second its turned on. Finding the right illuminator can be a challenge.

I have not found an illuminator that I like. There are whole threads about illuminators.

I have had dedicated nv scopes and none were satisfactory in the long run.
That covers what I wanted to pass on about clip on NV and higher X usage.

vr

 

[wigwamitus]

... I have not found an illuminator that I like ... [/quote} +1+1+1

I might even rephrase ... "I have not found (many) situations in which use of illum is beneficial. But I do mount them on the rifles, just in case

 

[j-huskey]

Most of the less expensive thermals are preset focused at a given distance, like day hunting scopes without parallax adjustments.
This can be worked around as Reverie Range said.
We shoot non adjustment thermals to 300 yards with no trouble.
You can find a few in your 5k range that will work. Except.....
They arent clip ons.

The only reliable clip on thermal I have personally used is a LWTS and it's way out of your 5k. It works better as a stand alone with distance focus, but, again, not in your price 5k.

@wigwamitus
Pictures he has put up here, are invaluable to everybody. You can see the issues a clip on causes.

If you want a "at home" experiment to see how you will handle a clip on, attach a 1# sand sock in front of your day scope and go through the motions of rapid presentation of the system to a target.
Or, on 10x, non supported, dry fire on a door knob across the room. Do it when you are tired to the point of irritability.

This will give you an idea of what you will have to deal with.

More later, vr

 

[Hogrider2000]

i have both NV and clip on for the NV.
also stand alone thermal. there is a place for allk of them. My shooting is pretty much limited to kill shots and PID as there are a lot of cattle and calves. So seldom over 100 yards, very seldom to 300 and mostly 50/80.
My NV are quality both CNVD and CNVD_LR. regardless of the night I always have IR with the weapon. I have run the gamit on the Illumination, and for the money the best for me is the Luna. works great and cost about 4 bills. Once you get it set up properly it is good to go and no adjustment needed. If you turn it on and come down on a target you can eliminate a lot of the brush wash. And no animal will notice it.

My thermal is a Trijican MK2 35mm, and it is great also. I use cheap shooting sticks with everything I shoot. Too damn old to be steady off hand anymore unless it is building clearing-that is another story.

I am selling that CNVD=LR. Juist not using it.

 

[Markhammett]

Message me about the cnvd lr please

 

[IW21]

Most of the less expensive thermals are preset focused at a given distance, like day hunting scopes without parallax adjustments.
This can be worked around as Reverie Range said.
We shoot non adjustment thermals to 300 yards with no trouble.
You can find a few in your 5k range that will work. Except.....
They arent clip ons.

The only reliable clip on thermal I have personally used is a LWTS and it's way out of your 5k. It works better as a stand alone with distance focus, but, again, not in your price 5k.

@wigwamitus
Pictures he has put up here, are invaluable to everybody. You can see the issues a clip on causes.

If you want a "at home" experiment to see how you will handle a clip on, attach a 1# sand sock in front of your day scope and go through the motions of rapid presentation of the system to a target.
Or, on 10x, non supported, dry fire on a door knob across the room. Do it when you are tired to the point of irritability.

This will give you an idea of what you will have to deal with.

More later, vr

You've fed me a ton of good info! I'm still digesting. But the one thing for sure, weight isn't an issue. Only because I'm only gonna be on my land, and it's only 120 acres. I only shoot off of the tripod anymore, or one of the towers we have. Cause of my back. So no super fast acquisition for me anymore lol.

 

[McNamara0851]

You can mount a Simrad on top on your spuhr. IMHO this will be the cheapest, highest quality route for the occasional hunt. I’ve shot mine on a 22-250AI to 800 yards and I beat the hell out of it on a regular basis. I can’t leave it mounted and get it in a case which is required in IL, so it’s on/off my rifle 15+ times a week with no POI shift. I bought an axiom thermal scanner and a nice IR Illuminator to accompany my NV and I’ve been extremely happy. Even with a 5k dedicated thermal, you will end up wanting a handheld scanner.