Advanced Marksmanship Contemplating barrel length

[Crews]

I am currently using a rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a 16.5” Kreiger light Palma profile barrel. This is my one and only rifle, primarily for field use so the shorty barrel is really ideal. It sends factory 140 ELD-M’s at 2,530 FPS.

The only local access I have is a 600 yard range. This is okay, because that’s right at my max effective hunting range with regards to my limited wind call ability and projectile performance threshold. I’m teaching myself how to do all this stuff, slowly with limited time and budget. I’m about 500 rounds in with my rifle as it sits, and am fairly competent at this distance. However, I am aware that my mastery of the fundamentals and understanding of the wind still have a long way to go.

While the short light(ish) barrel is great for the field, I think it might be adding a small layer of difficulty to my range/training sessions. I’d like to have something heavier to use while I work on recoil management techniques, and less chance of thermal drift would be nice. Also, I assumed that the extra MV would reduce my margin of error on wind calls. Intent is to keep the short barrel and spin it back on for hunting season.

So... I took my current load and a 10mph full value wind and plugged it in for my current 2,530mv and compared it to an assumed 2,850mv from a new 26” barrel:

At 600-800 yards, the improvements in the wind are less than .5 mils. Obviously that improvement grows as you get farther out and the wind gets faster, but at my current ranges/representative conditions the improvement seems like
A small payoff for dealing with a long ass barrel.

Here is my question: how much difference does a .3-.5 mil wind advantage make in practical field application? Would love to hear your thoughts. I’d love to have a heavier barrel no matter what, but I am struggling with what length to make it. Weight aside, I am really wondering if a really long 24-26” barrel is worth it if the wind gains are just marginal?

 

[Rocketvapor]

I would figure your wind advantage on maybe 3 to 5mph. Even a rookie like me can call to better than 10mph
It's not wind speed, but how wrong you got it.
So, on windy days, you miss your call the longer barrel gives you about .2 mil advantage.
Shooting half mil steel @ 600 that might be a miss or two. Get better at calling wind (my goal).
If you are shooting paper for score, .2 mil will make a big difference.
I've done a couple (4 total) 600yd meets and the long barreled 6.5's (various flavors) were good performers, all with heavy long barrels.

Wupped my little 22N

The longer/heavier barrel adds weight, and thermal delay. Both a benefit if you are shooting from prone using a rest.
600 to 1000 yd paper shooters seem to like to get close to max weight, and a big 'ol heavy barrel seems to be the norm.
Just park really close to the line as carrying a 22lb rifle is a pain.
For just recreational shooting or training maybe the lighter shorter barrel will be more challenging.
Plus, no barrel change for hunting season.

 

[Crews]

Interesting point on what perspective I’m using to try and understand the differences in wind performance. I was thinking for a set speed, the faster bullet drifts xyz amount less.

Will have to try and wrap my brain around how to quantify the margin of error if I mess up the wind call. Because that’s certainly the most probable outcome.

 

[Rocketvapor]

For an example,
I've started shooting F-Class 600.
An X ring is 0.15 mils wide (0.5 MOA )
If I aim dead center a 2mph full value missed wind call will put the shot into the 10 ring (which I would gladly accept ).
A little extra margin for less than full value. I get a few X's.
A 10mph missed call would be off the paper.
Luckily never had that. Got an 8 the last time out though.
Same gun, same barrel, I picked a bullet/ load that gives me about an inch or so in the wind.
88ELD @ 2880 over an 80ELD @2990.
Your example of the shorter 16.5" barrel compared to the 26" longer barrel
will be a lot more than an inch @ 600 for a 2mph missed call.

Oh, and not to miss the chance to brag;
I just received my F-Class Mid Range Sharpshooter rating
Yippee


Just noticed I used Mil, MOA, and inch in the same post.

 

[Crews]

makes sense, great feedback. Thanks!

 

[Huskydriver]

Not worth switching imo if you only really shoot to 600 max. Only advantage of a longer tube is more velocity. This only matters is A you need more energy on target at a specified distance or B you need to keep the bullet supersonic longer. Since it doesn't sound like either of those are a priority I agree to keep it a shorty.

 

[...]

....“Practical field application”.....

I suppose it depends on what you mean by that....and what exactly you are doing with your rifle.

I know you mean hunting.... but what kind and where?

Are you regularly making 600yd shots?....: if so it may be beneficial to have the .5 mil advantage.

However you need to remember what when hunting..... you are carrying that rifle 90% of the time.... the added 10” of barrel will add weight and make traveling through brush more difficult.

If you are hunting mostly in the 1-200 yd range..... frankly I would sacrifice velocity for easier rifle to carry

 

[Crews]

Hunting for me means a lot of riding around in the truck/atv, taking quick shots at hogs when the opportunities present themselves. It also means a lot of blind windows and walking in through heavy brush deer hunting. The shorty barrel is very nice for these things. I routinely have opportunities for shots further than 600 yards, but with my self imposed limits on minimum expansion velocity / energy / wind calling ability under pressure I won't take any shots on a deer further than that at this point.

The idea here is to keep the 16.5" barrel and spin it on for hunting season. 600 yards is a long way. The biggest challenge is the limitations during the range sessions. I'd like to have something with a little more weight and less thermal drift at the least. I can probably get that done with a heavier profile and ~18-20". Just trying to figure out if the extra length of a 26" barrel is really worth it. Still really boiling down to the wind advantage.

 

[brianf]

ive found over the years, set the cartridge up to do whats its was designed for.
if you like the 6.5 cm get atleast a 22" and then throw on a folding stock if its too long.
or get the 16 make your best load and practice.
i wish the answers were more clear lol

 

[wade2big]

You wont see 2850fps even with a 26” barrel. You will be well under 2800 fps and much much closer to 2700

 

[lash]

You wont see 2850fps even with a 26” barrel. You will be well under 2800 fps and much much closer to 2700

???
Almost all of the guys I know shooting 6.5 are shooting a 26” barrel and about 2850. Some are really pushing it at 2900. 2750 is considered the slow node for the 140 class bullets.

Maybe your barrel is slow?

 

[SupressYourself]

You wont see 2850fps even with a 26” barrel. You will be well under 2800 fps and much much closer to 2700

Depends on the barrel. My 26" Benchmark shoots the factory 140 ELDM between 2840 and 2860.
With my handloads, I push the 139 Scenar to 2910 without a problem.

 

[wade2big]

???
Almost all of the guys I know shooting 6.5 are shooting a 26” barrel and about 2850. Some are really pushing it at 2900. 2750 is considered the slow node for the 140 class bullets.

Maybe your barrel is slow?

Depends on the barrel. My 26" Benchmark shoots the factory 140 ELDM between 2840 and 2860.
With my handloads, I push the 139 Scenar to 2910 without a problem.

You guys may have seen different but with factory 140 gr hornady i have yet to see much over 2725 with a 26” bartlein or a 26” savage barrel. My 24” spencer shoots them at 2700. My 24” tikka at 2650fps. This is on the Texas gulf coast in the heat.

 

[wade2big]

This isnt chronoed but trued to 825 yards.

Of course handloads is a different animal all together.

 

[Crews]

You guys may have seen different but with factory 140 gr hornady i have yet to see much over 2725 with a 26” bartlein or a 26” savage barrel. My 24” spencer shoots them at 2700. My 24” tikka at 2650fps. This is on the Texas gulf coast in the heat.

That's particularly relevant to me because I'm in Houston and most of my range time is in the same conditions.

 

[wade2big]

That's particularly relevant to me because I'm in Houston and most of my range time is in the same conditions.

Im right down the road out of El Campo.

I just never see the velocities that most guys post. My experiences always seem to differ. I get the similar velocity whether shooting 140 gr american gunner, 140gr eld, and the 147 eld. All right there together no matter which rifle I shoot from.

 

[lash]

This isnt chronoed but trued to 825 yards.

Of course handloads is a different animal all together.

Ah, that’s the crux of it all now isn’t it? Like most cartridges, you get your best performance from hand loading.

And I’m in muggy, hot central Florida at about sea level, so that has little to do with it. Also, try measuring your velocity with a chronograph some time. You may be surprised at your actual speed versus your “trued” speed.

 

[wade2big]

Ah, that’s the crux of it all now isn’t it? Like most cartridges, you get your best performance from hand loading.

And I’m in muggy, hot central Florida at about sea level, so that has little to do with it. Also, try measuring your velocity with a chronograph some time. You may be surprised at your actual speed versus your “trued” speed.

Your right except the OP is talking about factory ammo which is why i was reffering to it.

Trued speed is real data learned from experience in the field (range). Chronographing ammo means nothing to me. Its theory as far as im concerned.

Give me a rifle, ammo, and a known distance range. I dont need a ballistic calculator or chronograph. I will have a proven data card out to the distance of the range in less than 30 minutes built on real world data in the conditions that day.

 

[lash]

Valid point, I’ve not shot any factory 6.5, so can’t say.

 

[wade2big]

Valid point, I’ve not shot any factory 6.5, so can’t say.

The handloads i have shor through mine are my buddies 147 eldm loads. He is shooting them at 2750 i think. He was @ 2825 ish last winter but when the temps came up during the summer he started having blown primers so he backed off to a lower node to be safe in all conditions.

 

[wade2big]

Depends on the barrel. My 26" Benchmark shoots the factory 140 ELDM between 2840 and 2860.
With my handloads, I push the 139 Scenar to 2910 without a problem.

That seems extremely fast and unbelievable compared to anything i have ever read or seen myself through the small sample of rifles and barrel lengths with factory hornady ammo. I cant and wouldnt say you are wrong though as I have only a handful of rifles to compare to. Maybe yours is a freak. Have you shot it out to 800-1000yards to verify starting with a good zero?

 

[lash]

I’ll ask you again. Have you ever chronoed your load? You’re questioning a person who has measured their velocity based upon your only experience of your trued loads. You have tried yours to only 825, but want others to prove their measured velocity by trying to 1000. Do you see the issue here?

Nobody is doubting what you are seeing in your rifles, yet you cannot accept that others can have different results. You must be an expert or something to be so sure. Or is it just being defensive?

For what it’s worth, it is well known that different barrels can easily show 100 FPS differences in velocity with the exact same load. It’s happened over and over again. It’s not a secret and not magic or dangerous, just different.

 

[wade2big]

I’ll ask you again. Have you ever chronoed your load? You’re questioning a person who has measured their velocity based upon your only experience of your trued loads. You have tried yours to only 825, but want others to prove their measured velocity by trying to 1000. Do you see the issue here?

Nobody is doubting what you are seeing in your rifles, yet you cannot accept that others can have different results. You must be an expert or something to be so sure. Or is it just being defensive?

For what it’s worth, it is well known that different barrels can easily show 100 FPS differences in velocity with the exact same load. It’s happened over and over again. It’s not a secret and not magic or dangerous, just different.

Re-read the post that you are referencing. Im not denying what the man said. I even referenced my somewhat small sample. As far as 1000 yards go, you are mistating what I said. I said “800-1000 yards”. My distance fit right in there as well. Im just making sure he isnt a 100 yard shooter to gain credibility as I dont know him.

Asking questions is sure as hell not being defensive and it doesnt mean that I disbelieve either. Its called conversation and debate. Only the ignorant, idiots, and democrats (usually the same people) get wound up when questioned. Its unfortunate that you took a post not directed towards you as offensive.

Lets try not to get in an internet argument. Its dumb.

 

[SupressYourself]

That seems extremely fast and unbelievable compared to anything i have ever read or seen myself through the small sample of rifles and barrel lengths with factory hornady ammo. I cant and wouldnt say you are wrong though as I have only a handful of rifles to compare to. Maybe yours is a freak. Have you shot it out to 800-1000yards to verify starting with a good zero?

I dunno man. I have a sample size of one, but that's what it does.

That's was in the fall, probably about 45 degrees. She runs a little hotter in the summer, and there's variation between lots, but about 2840 is normal for my barrel with 140s. I'm normally shooting between 1000 and 1400ft elevation.

 

[wade2big]

I dunno man. I have a sample size of one, but that's what it does.
View attachment 7017390

That's was in the fall, probably about 45 degrees. She runs a little hotter in the summer, and there's variation between lots, but about 2840 is normal for my barrel with 140s. I'm normally shooting between 1000 and 1400ft elevation.

I hope you didnt take my posts as calling you a liar like the other guy did. I just said it hasnt matched anything that i have seen out of several 24” barrels and a couple 26”ers both factory and aftermarket. I never said or believed it was impossible by any means.

Have you stretched its legs a little to verify?

 

[SupressYourself]

I hope you didnt take my posts as calling you a liar like the other guy did. I just said it hasnt matched anything that i have seen out of several 24” barrels and a couple 26”ers both factory and aftermarket. I never said or believed it was impossible by any means.
Have you stretched its legs a little to verify?

Nope, I get it. There's variability between barrels, and mine is probably on the fast side. Also, environmental conditions make a difference.
As for "trueing", I haven't done a lot of it, but based off of that MV, I'm making first round hits out to 1270 yards on 1moa-sized targets, so I figure it must be close enough.

Here's my 139 Scenar hand load:

 

[wade2big]

Nope, I get it. There's variability between barrels, and mine is probably on the fast side. Also, environmental conditions make a difference.
As for "trueing", I haven't done a lot of it, but based off of that MV, I'm making first round hits out to 1270 yards on 1moa-sized targets, so I figure it must be close enough.

Here's my 139 Scenar hand load:
View attachment 7017392

If you hit at 1270 then its verified as far as im concerned and inthink you know that.

See @lash. Thats how adults do it.

Hitting the gym then out with the rifles like i do every single weekend. Man its good sometimes.

 

[lash]

lol!!!

I never called you a thin skinned liar, or any kind of liar, you assumed that. I was trying to get you to realize that your experience of two barrels (now more from your later posts) are not the be all to end all of reality.

See, that’s how you do it, not resorting to thin skinned ass hurt and the old sjw saw of “I’m more mature than you are.”

He, he, he...

 

[Yankee88]

This thread was thoroughly and surprisingly entertaining!

Can’t tell if wade2big is serious or not.

 

[wade2big]

This thread was thoroughly and surprisingly entertaining!

Can’t tell if wade2big is serious or not.

Called me out. Lol.
i had to reread to see what it was about. Factory ammo is slow handloaded can be much faster. Seems right.

I actually have had several more 6.5 barrels since this thread started. Same results on my end. I can’t seem to get much over 2700 out of factory Hornady stuff in long barrels whether bthp or eldm ammunition. Prime 130s are much much faster and have seen the speeds some guys say they get with factory Hornady.

Some people may see speeds that are 150fps over what the hornady box states. I just haven‘t personally seen it. Not even close.