Converting suppressor registered individual to trust

[psharon78]

I have a question about converting one of my suppressors that's currently registered as individual and moving it to my silencershop traditional trust.

I'm planning on using Eform Form 1 to change the registration. Do I need to attach a photo on the ATF form 5320.23 form? If not, does ATF use the photo that's uploaded here

 

[Zak Smith]

You aren't manufacturing a new NFA firearm. You are transferring an existing one. You'd Form 4 it from the individual to the trust.

 

[FuhQ]

Why not contact Silencer Shop and let them walk you through it? Seems like the easy button route...

 

[Hoser]

It is a simple form 4 $200 transfer from you to your trust.

I had to pay the $200 tax on many items to move them to my trust. That hurt.

 

[FuhQ]

It is a simple form 4 $200 transfer from you to your trust.

I had to pay the $200 tax on many items to move them to my trust. That hurt.

This is why the new $129 lifetime Single Shot Trust option from SS is a good buy. I did it around my 5th can, and haven't had to pay for a Trust since...And I just bought can #12 on Friday. And never will have to buy one again. It's already paid for itself + saved me $50 at this point. It automatically is saved in the system that you bought the lifetime Single Shot, and doesn't charge you for it, so with each purchase you just put your can(s) and stamp(s) in the cart and pay.

Single Shot Unlimited Gun Trust - Silencer Shop

Discover the Single Shot Unlimited Gun Trust: a cost-effective, easy solution for NFA enthusiasts to manage purchases and trustees with one lifetime payment.

www.silencershop.com

Plus, I was told that since they are already individual trusts, you can easily add/transfer them all under a huge single NFA trust without having to pay the $200 fee again, and wait for a new stamp...Or something like that. I think that's what he told me. I'm not a lawyer, so, not 100% on that. I'll probably setup a big trust sooner or later and go ahead and list the ones I already have in-hand on them under the big NFA trust.

 

[Holliday]

It is a simple form 4 $200 transfer from you to your trust.

I had to pay the $200 tax on many items to move them to my trust. That hurt.

Yeah I did that on my first one. Sucked but I wanted them all in the trust that I set up by the second one……

 

[psharon78]

Thanks. I have a traditional trust from silencershop. I'm looking at the easiest way to do this. I contacted Silencershop and they unfortunately don't have this service.

 

[psharon78]

Since I'm transfering from individual to trust, do I skip this page?

 

[E. Bryant]

I am unaware of any provisions for doing a eForm 4 transfer between two non-SOTs - you'll need to file this via a paper form.

 

[mebgardner]

I am unaware of any provisions for doing a eForm 4 transfer between two non-SOTs - you'll need to file this via a paper form.

I am continuing investigating the transfer paperwork path from Individual F4 to an established NFA Trust.

I believe this is still correct: The ATF eForm F4 document does not allow for transfers between two non-SOTs. That is, Individual F4 (Non-SOT) to NFA Trust (Non-SOT) are transferred on paper F4 only. There is no eForm F4 path at this time.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

There is another path for Individual F4 holders to have the F4 item to transfer into the NFA Trust: By Inheritance via Form5 paper. The Inheritor can submit a paper F5 and pay No Tax Stamp, it's a free transfer method. The Will should state that the NFA items shall be transferred to the NFA Trust upon decease. The NFA Trust is the Inheritor. The Successor Trustee(s) would then file the F5 tax free paper. *But*, each Successor Trustee will become Required to fill out the Responsible Persons affidavit (new trust business on behalf of the trust, by the Successor Trustees), and submit photos, and perhaps fingerprint cards (unsure on this last point). So, it's work and exposure on their part, by family folk who may not be familiar with complex NFA documents. Judge for yourself if that path is worth the price.

 

[trob]

If it costs $200 to move it from you (individual) to your trust, why even bother adding it?
If you die, it’s going to cost a family member $200 to take possession of the individual stuff anyways (if they even plan on keeping it). So, you’re just passing the burden ($) from them to you right away, anticipating they will want the item.

why not just add all the nfa stuff, from now on, to your trust?

I‘m obviously not well-versed on the subject, so I’m actually curious. I’m kind of in the same boat. I have 4 NFA items. I probably should have done a trust from the beginning, but I don’t have kids or much family that would want them (maybe my dad if he outlives me?). I got married after I had most of them. If my wife wants any of them, I guess she can pay $200 for a stamp at that time.

 

[NiteQwill]

If it costs $200 to move it from you (individual) to your trust, why even bother adding it?
If you die, it’s going to cost a family member $200 to take possession of the individual stuff anyways (if they even plan on keeping it). So, you’re just passing the burden ($) from them to you right away, anticipating they will want the item.

why not just add all the nfa stuff, from now on, to your trust?

I‘m obviously not well-versed on the subject, so I’m actually curious. I’m kind of in the same boat. I have 4 NFA items. I probably should have done a trust from the beginning, but I don’t have kids or much family that would want them (maybe my dad if he outlives me?). I got married after I had most of them. If my wife wants any of them, I guess she can pay $200 for a stamp at that time.

After passing, the transfer of an NFA item to a next of kin is a tax-free event. No $200. Form 5 transfer, it's actually easy.

 

[trob]

After passing, the transfer of an NFA item to a next of kin is a tax-free event. No $200. Form 5 transfer, it's actually easy.

Right. but if it’s not in the trust, it will cost them $200.
So for those items that are already on individual form 4’s, you either pay another $200 after death, or pay another $200 right now to put those items (that he already owns) into the trust. it‘s 6’s. Right?

im not sure you read my post.

 

[biffj]

You have to do actual paper forms to transfer between individuals or trusts. You have to pay the transfer tax every single time on every item unless its transferred via form 5 as unserviceable, coming from a government agency or an estate to named heir. As noted by someone earlier transfers between individuals and trusts will have to be done on a form 4 tax paid.
Nothing in any type of trust removes the need to pay the transfer tax. You don't have to pay for a new trust for each transfer but you will pay the transfer tax.

If you have a bunch of people on your trust it may be worth transferring stuff to the trust. If you're transferring stuff to the trust for estate reasons it may not be worth the cost. You already paid $200 to transfer the can to yourself so why pay another $200 tax just to put it in a trust?
Suppressors don't gain in value like other NFA so every time you pay a tax it costs you more money you'll never get back. Its a lot different when your machinegun goes up $5000 an extra tax payment means little....

Frank

 

[mebgardner]

You have to do actual paper forms to transfer between individuals or trusts. You have to pay the transfer tax every single time on every item unless its transferred via form 5 as unserviceable, coming from a government agency or an estate to named heir. As noted by someone earlier transfers between individuals and trusts will have to be done on a form 4 tax paid.

Hi Frank:

This is what I thought. There is no eForm4 use, its all via paper when transfers between non-SOTs occur.

Also, I can confirm that Individual Form 4 NFA Items can be transferred to an estate heir, tax free, via a Form 5 paper.

Nothing in any type of trust removes the need to pay the transfer tax. You don't have to pay for a new trust for each transfer but you will pay the transfer tax.

If you have a bunch of people on your trust it may be worth transferring stuff to the trust. If you're transferring stuff to the trust for estate reasons it may not be worth the cost. You already paid $200 to transfer the can to yourself so why pay another $200 tax just to put it in a trust?

There are very good reasons to move everything owned into an NFA trust. They are basically the same reasons we use trust mechanisms in the first place. They cover, protect, and allow for the possibility of no NFA paper estate transfers.

Trusts cover and shield the ownership aspect, the "who owns it" aspect when in court or on the road. Think: Divorce, Red Flag Laws (you must move them from your access to a "trusted" individual in any case, but the NFA trust mechanism can facilitate that transfer on a temporary basis).

Trusts protect your spouse and family. The ATF can not claim a spouse as an individual has access (to a closet, for example) to an NFA item as a non-responsible person.

Trusts allow no form transfers, upon an estate transfer. The individuals named as "Successor Trustees" are allowed ownership upon succession without additional NFA paperwork.

Suppressors don't gain in value like other NFA so every time you pay a tax it costs you more money you'll never get back. Its a lot different when your machinegun goes up $5000 an extra tax payment means little....

Frank

This is an idea I have adopted recently. The idea has always been true. Suppressors are consumables, and they do not increase in value.

Bob

 

[trob]

Thanks for those replies. I don’t think it would make a lot of sense in my case to put them (suppressors and sbr) in a trust after the fact. no happy switches for me.

 

[NiteQwill]

Right. but if it’s not in the trust, it will cost them $200.
So for those items that are already on individual form 4’s, you either pay another $200 after death, or pay another $200 right now to put those items (that he already owns) into the trust. it‘s 6’s. Right?

im not sure you read my post.

What? I read your post just fine. You're assuming that your family member needs to pay $200 after your passing. THEY DO NOT.

A Form 5 is a tax exempt event.

If you have an NFA item, you pass on, THEN: your wife/kids/estate fills out a Form 5 and pay ZERO $.

 

[trob]

What? I read your post just fine. You're assuming that your family member needs to pay $200 after your passing. THEY DO NOT.

A Form 5 is a tax exempt event.

If you have an NFA item, you pass on, THEN: your wife/kids/estate fills out a Form 5 and pay ZERO $.

Maybe I misunderstood. Even without being in a trust? That would be interesting info, didn’t know that.

 

[NiteQwill]

Maybe I misunderstood. Even without being in a trust? That would be interesting info, didn’t know that.

Correct. For individual form 4s... Your estate/NoK simply fills out a Form 5 and submits to ATF.

 

[trob]

Correct. For individual form 4s... Your estate/NoK simply fills out a Form 5 and submits to ATF.

Well that’s awesome. I had no idea. Thanks.

 

[biffj]

One key thing here that will help, maybe, to understand how things move in the NFA world. The first and foremost thing is that nothing we will ever deal with is on any form. Form 1's can only be used one time for a particular NFA registration. Once registered any transfers will be done using a form 3, form 4 or form 5 depending on who its being transferred from and to. Form 4 guns or cans will transfer between dealers using form 3's tax exempt, they will transfer from anyone to or from a govt agency via form 5 tax exempt and they will transfer to legal heirs(immediate family members or anyone named in a will) via a tax exempt form 5. Each form is used for a transfer based on the parties involved in the transfer, not based on the form the thing was last transferred with. So don't think of any can or other NFA firearm as being on a form 4 or a form 1 or whatever. Think of how it will transfer to the next registrant.

So with that said, for estate purposes an NFA firearm of any type can be transferred on the death of the registrant directly and tax free to a legal heir. If your uncle bill or the nice lady down the street dies and you're named in their will to receive a particular NFA firearm it will transfer directly to you via a tax exempt form 5. This is nice and allows estates to take care of NFA registered to deceased owners. ATF NFA branch will usually bend over backwards to help out with these transfers too which is not what you might expect. They're very good about it. For some stuff as I noted previously, it makes no sense to make up a trust to do estate transfers without paperwork.

At one time, prior to the rule change in 2017 or whenever it was, many chief law enforcement officers refused to sign off in places where it was legal own NFA. For that reason trusts were pushed because corporations and trusts did not require the sign off by your police chief. For this it made very good sense in addition to the estate uses of trusts. Of course the system was abused by people who knew that only one member of the trust had to do a background check and sign the 4473 when they picked up the gun. The rule change made that a bit tougher. To prevent felons and others who could not legally own NFA unable to do so via trusts they required statements and background checks for all trust members. This complicated things. On the other hand they removed the CLEO sign off requirement from all transfers. Trusts can still be a good thing for families or groups who want to allow possession of NFA by more than one person. It can also be good for those who have enough NFA items that the paperwork for transfers to heirs would be excessive. It allows all members of the trust to possess the firearms and in case of the death of any member only the trust docs need to be updated and ATF informed.

You must choose for yourself whether its worth the effort, cost and paper to transfer items into a trust and whether the trust is worth fooling with. Sometimes it is and sometimes its not but the circumstances of the person or persons involved need to be considered to make that choice.

Frank

 

[mebgardner]

So with that said, for estate purposes an NFA firearm of any type can be transferred on the death of the registrant directly and tax free to a legal heir. If your uncle bill or the nice lady down the street dies and you're named in their will to receive a particular NFA firearm it will transfer directly to you via a tax exempt form 5. This is nice and allows estates to take care of NFA registered to deceased owners. ATF NFA branch will usually bend over backwards to help out with these transfers too which is not what you might expect. They're very good about it. For some stuff as I noted previously, it makes no sense to make up a trust to do estate transfers without paperwork.

A will, or other document, must reflect your intent to transfer NFA to a legal heir. This was a conundrum for a few days for me, as I thought about how that wording needed to read, and where (what doc) to put that wording.

Doc Choices: My Will. My Family Trust. My NFA Trust. Heir choices are: To an Individual. To my Residuary Estate. To my Family Trust. To my NFA Trust. Remember, you get *just one* tax free transfer exemption.

Since I wanted my NFA to land into my NFA Trust, that Trust now has a supplement that instructs "... an acting Trustee of the XXXX NFA Trust (the "Trustee") facilitate the transfer of these NFA Items to the XXXX NFA Trust at my death."

No intermediary. One Transfer. Responsible Person is the Trustee.

 

[biffj]

I'm not sure if you can list a trust as a recipient for NFA in a will and still get a tax free transfer. A corp would be the same as a trust for that purpose as well. I don't recall where I'd seen it but its worth looking into prior to just trying it. As far as I know you can leave NFA to a trust or corp but you don't get the tax exempt transfer....

Frank

 

[NiteQwill]

A will, or other document, must reflect your intent to transfer NFA to a legal heir. This was a conundrum for a few days for me, as I thought about how that wording needed to read, and where (what doc) to put that wording.

Doc Choices: My Will. My Family Trust. My NFA Trust. Heir choices are: To an Individual. To my Residuary Estate. To my Family Trust. To my NFA Trust. Remember, you get *just one* tax free transfer exemption.

Since I wanted my NFA to land into my NFA Trust, that Trust now has a supplement that instructs "... an acting Trustee of the XXXX NFA Trust (the "Trustee") facilitate the transfer of these NFA Items to the XXXX NFA Trust at my death."

No intermediary. One Transfer. Responsible Person is the Trustee.

I don't believe this is true. You cannot transfer individual items to a trust tax free after death. I had this conversation with a lawyer moons ago, but who knows, this may have changed.

 

[mebgardner]

I'm not sure if you can list a trust as a recipient for NFA in a will and still get a tax free transfer. A corp would be the same as a trust for that purpose as well. I don't recall where I'd seen it but its worth looking into prior to just trying it. As far as I know you can leave NFA to a trust or corp but you don't get the tax exempt transfer....

Frank

Hmmm. Two responses indicating this won't work. I did see you write, twice, about a named heir. I believe I also saw examples of an F5 being completed by a Trustee, as a Responsible Person, signing "John Doe, as Trustee". I don't recall if the Transferee was identified as a Trust in the example. All other co-trustees were also required to fill out the Responsible Person questionnaire, and supply a photo. Unknown about fingerprint cards, I did not look at that. Unknown if those actions have to occur (co trustees filling out forms, fingerprint cards, and photos) even if a Trust can be identified as Transferee on an F5 being used as the paper.

In other words, it looked complicated for what should have been a routine F5 transfer for an inherited NFA.

OK. I will leave the addendum to the NFA Trust in place. Maybe an acting Trustee can use it, maybe not. If not, every other doc points to a Family trust.

So, another reason to transfer NFA items to NFA Trust before I'm outta here.

Or just let them sort it out. Oh well, I've paid my taxes. And My Dues.