Cops around Grand Canyon?

[ArcticLight]

I have a friend from Austria that flies R/C planes.

Went to the grand canyon and got some beautiful scenery recorded, for entertainment purposes only.

Seems the park rangers there confiscated his SD card from his camera and he was forced to sign what he calls a confession and release for the SD card.

there's a lot of discussion over flying the r/c FPV type aircraft but so far there is nothing illegal about it, for entertainment purposes only....

Anyone down that way?

I've actually suggested he call his state dept and make an international scene out of this because he was here in America as a tourist and what he thinks of America now is just like the rest of the world - BAD thoughts.....

I'd actually like to prove to him we're not the paranoid type scandrals the world thinks we are...

Now the American guys on the r/c forum are smart about the laws, he broke no laws. Had he carried someone or something INTO hte park on his r/c plane then yeah, had he SOLD the video, yeah - but he's not - it's strictly entertainment and the FAA and FCC both allow this PROVIDED he has a HAM technical license - and he does have the equivelant in Austria.


So, anyone think they can help before he goes the official route?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

I have heard stories that the Indians own some form of right to many of the "picture opportunities" in the park and that they and only they have the pictures that are for any use.

 

[jcfd2201]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

I will check into it with my friend that is a Park Ranger here and has worked at GC in the past and see what she says.

 

[jcfd2201]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

Just got off the phone with her and she is making some calls. She didn't find anything in a quick search of her FedReg book that would provide for that. She suggested the first thing to do is go to and speak to the Chief Ranger and then the Superintendent.

 

[softcock]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

some NPS Rangers are Fascist Dicks & there is no logic for the way they rule the Nat. parks like it's there own little Catbaox that you are shitting in . If you ever had a run-in with NPS then you will understand completely what I am talking about . They Rule 'Behavior' & abuse the public on the Park grounds & they Rule the Air space that blows freely above the Nat. Parks also .
.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard stories that the Indians own some form of right to many of the "picture opportunities" in the park and that they and only they have the pictures that are for any use. </div></div>

The Indians actually asked him to come fly from their land and had NO problem with it, so he did....and he speaks HIGHLY of the Indians there

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

I have spent some time in that area.
I think your friend has a legitimate bitch.
I wonder if the area is a place where they[Park service] train people and he just got grabbed by some Rookie with a HEAVY badge and ego to boot.
I hope it comes out well and he gets to keep his photos.
I know of one person that used a small camera on a kite and flew it out to take pictures, she too was nabbed by the officials and all of her gear, kite, camera etc. was taken from her.
She had a paid Native American guide who was helping her, ie. running string, activating the camera etc. She did not fare well and lost everything.
Something is wrong down there.
Regards, FM

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: softcock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some NPS Rangers are Fascist Dicks & there is no logic for the way they rule the Nat. parks like it's there own little Catbaox that you are shitting in .</div></div>

Unfortunately I've shared range space with a few of them (them on one side, me on the other, they do certain training at a facility that they contract in part) and your description was just about spot on.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcfd2201</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just got off the phone with her and she is making some calls. She didn't find anything in a quick search of her FedReg book that would provide for that. She suggested the first thing to do is go to and speak to the Chief Ranger and then the Superintendent. </div></div>

oooh get me some phone numbers please and I will make the call!!!

I have the gift of gab....

 

[High Binder]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

Welcome to the United Police States of America.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

and.. it is only going to get worse .. i think.

 

[Pat M]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

King's Land, King's Deer, King's Air - We are the King's Bit*h

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

Why not just go fly and worry about the BS later? I mean, it's FPV we're talking about so you're flying beyond visual range correct? How are they gonna track the aircraft back to your friend if he is flying from a discreet location?

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just go fly and worry about the BS later? I mean, it's FPV we're talking about so you're flying beyond visual range correct? How are they gonna track the aircraft back to your friend if he is flying from a discreet location? </div></div>

That's the new thing - everyone is talking about it and suggesting an alternative landing site...where the plane can be retrieved later.

I think our park rangers are cool so I will ask, MONTHS ahead of time.
I am planning to go fly to the top of the Olympic mountain "The Brothers"...

 

[softcock]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

get permission/permit 'in writing' . not trying to BS you or blow smoke up your ass ( ..." i think my parks ranger is a nice guy " . ) Means Nothing . Yes they think they own the air above & it's use also .
In Federal Parks jurisdiction . NPS has gone so far as to prosecute on Felony charges of illegal Aerial Delivery to people with hanggliders,paragliders/parachutes & once successfully prosecuted two Europeans on vacation that were just 'kiting' a Paraglider while standing next to there vehicle . NPS has successfully prosecuted on this charge numerous time & it's Jail / 5-$ K fine / Confiscation of all equipment / Felony Record .
To the mind of NPS even person involved in RC/aircraft ( Model or Toy Aircraft ) is 'written' and is in NPS scope of prosecution under charge of illegal Aerial Delivery . They have Concrete and long track record of broad adaptation and successful prosecution using this law from 1965 to prevent the resupplying to hunters and squatters on national parks .
& hey like I said, not trying to blow smoke up your ass but I am just pointing out factual history that NPS practices.
.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

Again, given what FPV entails how are they going to find the pilot if he is flying from a remote/discreet location? Its not like they have any means of tracking the aircraft.

Asking for permission "in writing" no less is just an easy way to be told "NO and if we catch you you're going to jail, you've been warned".

 

[softcock]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

>... "<span style="font-style: italic">I think our park rangers are cool so I will ask, MONTHS ahead of time</span>."
.

I was replying to . ( He ) is the one who said he was going to ask for permission . That is his problem if he is told No & I really don't give a fuck one way or the other .
If he does ASK & he gets a verbal GTG from one of the dirt police there. I said ..."He should get it in writing".
.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

SO better to ask forgiveness than permission, land in a remote area and deny everything.


Update guys: I need to know if this is an infraction or is criminal - DID THEY HAVE A RIGHT to take his SD card???

He was cited for: 36 CFR 2.17 - Aircraft and air delivery.

 

[softcock]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

to this date . ( 36 CFR 2.17 - Aircraft and air delivery ) no one has gotten equipment confiscated returned or has successful deafened against .
.

 

[IkeEng]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

They just don’t want to have your friend post any pics of all of the pot farms that are on the Nat Park lands.

 

[marksmatter]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

All I know is back when I was flying, we had to stay several thousand feet above any sort of nat'l park. Perhaps your friend got busted under the same reg?

Confiscating the SD card, I don't get. My brother got busted once for some old misdemeanor coming back into the country. It was interesting to see how a couple of his more valuable personal possessions never got logged into the system. Seems the cellphone and ipod did not quite make it...

Most times, it seems easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission. The Feds are not always real eager to put stuff in writing either.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

Well on a good note I did the maiden voyage on my plane, General consensus is that the propeller yoke is slipping and the speed controller overheated...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WLwxWjXOAIQ&feature=player_embedded"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WLwxWjXOAIQ&feature=player_embedded" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[softcock]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

( marksmatter )Your missing it . Alt. in flying over airspace or having your SD card getting confiscated in airport is not what is going-on here with begging permission, asking forgiveness .

<span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">This is about the NPS using ( 36 CFR 2.17 - Aircraft and air delivery ) in such a broad manor that it Was Not initially designed & intensded for . The confiscation of personal property, Fine & Incarceration for being in the Nat. Parks & flying ' Anything ' from an RC Plane, model or toy aircraft to parachute. hang-glider, paraglider etc. . On publicly owned property our Nat. Parks.
It's not about right & wrong. It's about NPS grabbing absolute control with twisting the written word of a law . Molding it to any definition they desire to satisfy successful criminal to felony prosecution of anyone they want . Citizens criminally prosecuted for recreational use of the Air while in the grounds of our National Parks .
.</span></span>

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: softcock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">( marksmatter )Your missing it . Alt. in flying over airspace or having your SD card getting confiscated in airport is not what is going-on here with begging permission, asking forgiveness .

<span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">This is about the NPS using ( 36 CFR 2.17 - Aircraft and air delivery ) in such a broad manor that it Was Not initially designed & intensded for . The confiscation of personal property, Fine & Incarceration for being in the Nat. Parks & flying ' Anything ' from an RC Plane, model or toy aircraft to parachute. hang-glider, paraglider etc. . On publicly owned property our Nat. Parks.
It's not about right & wrong. It's about NPS grabbing absolute control with twisting the written word of a law . Molding it to any definition they desire to satisfy successful criminal to felony prosecution of anyone they want . Citizens criminally prosecuted for recreational use of the Air while in the grounds of our National Parks .
.</span></span> </div></div>

I agree but unfortunately because they have the SD card they have control.

The person that owns it has been directed to go to the state department and fight this, I'm hoping to head it off at the pass but if they refuse then I'm directing this guy to go guns blazing.

HE DID HIS RESEARCH before boarding a plane to America - he QUOTED that law and knew as long as he wasn't dropping stuff off etc....

so yeah we're all agreeing on this, just hoping they don't "Lose" his card or destroy it if they haven't already....

 

[marksmatter]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: softcock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">( marksmatter )Your missing it . Alt. in flying over airspace or having your SD card getting confiscated in airport is not what is going-on here with begging permission, asking forgiveness .

<span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">This is about the NPS using ( 36 CFR 2.17 - Aircraft and air delivery ) in such a broad manor that it Was Not initially designed & intensded for . The confiscation of personal property, Fine & Incarceration for being in the Nat. Parks & flying ' Anything ' from an RC Plane, model or toy aircraft to parachute. hang-glider, paraglider etc. . On publicly owned property our Nat. Parks.
It's not about right & wrong. It's about NPS grabbing absolute control with twisting the written word of a law . Molding it to any definition they desire to satisfy successful criminal to felony prosecution of anyone they want . Citizens criminally prosecuted for recreational use of the Air while in the grounds of our National Parks .
.</span></span> </div></div>

It's entirely possible that I am. I pointed to my experience as a pilot only as a side. I assume our FAA regs were to allow folks in the park to enjoy the serenity, and for wildlife to remain undisturbed. I would also assume that there is an equivalent reg for groundpounders, but you know what they say about assumptions...

As far as the story about my brother goes, and the confiscation of an SD card, I was agreeing with you that abuse of authority is rampant, regardless of where it occurs. Ignorance and/or abuse is everywhere.

If I'm still missing the point, then I'll just resume being a dumbass.

 

[Don't try to run]

Re: Cops around Grand Canyon?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: softcock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some NPS Rangers are Fascist Dicks & there is no logic for the way they rule the Nat. parks like it's there own little Catbaox that you are shitting in . If you ever had a run-in with NPS then you will understand completely what I am talking about . </div></div>
I was driving through Valley Forge Park one night coming home from a first date with the woman I eventually married,and was using a spotlight to avoid hitting one of the thousands of deer that live there. They literally were all over in and along the road at night. So as I'm exiting the park on the State Road, and the park property is literally only on one side of the street, a NPS guy pulls me over and starts giving me shit about spotlighting. I explained it to him, as if he didn't know the problem with the deer, but he was a dick.I was wearing a beautiful double breasted Jones New Your Olive suit, sober, and happy. It was even my Birthday!
He busted my balls and searched my car for weapons. Guns or bows.
As he was letting me go, after considering a ticket for spotlighting during deer season (a State Law and no hunting in the park anyway.I don't know if he could even issue one), the only car we saw the whole time passed us........and hit a deer in front of us less than 100 yards down the road and went into the windshield.
And he still acted like I was John Dillinger.I had to ask him if he was going to assist since nobody was getting out of the car. Finally I told him go fuck himself I was going to do it, and did.