Coriolis Effect

emsp

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 31, 2012
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Englewood, CO
At what point in time does the Coriolis Effect really start to matter? I am assuming that it would be more based on flight time of the bullet than other factors. Going out on a limb a 4 second bullet flight time would have to factor this in while a 1 second flight time would not. Is my reasoning sound? Is there a general rule as to when this should be factored in?
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Im headed to VA this weekend to shoot over 1000 and just dont know if I need to worry about it. As far as the direction I cant say until I get there. My ballistic app has a spot for it and I will test it out and see if it matters.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

I have shot to 2000 yards and I can tell you that with al of the other factors you are going to be dealing with, don't worry about it. Chances are you are going to be waking them in anyway so don't even worry about it.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Long range precision rifle shooting is about knowing what matters, what doesn't, and when it matters.

At 1000 yards it doesn't matter. At 2000 yards it is not a factor to be ignored. And the fact that your chances of a first round hit are low at 2000 yards is relevant to whether it is a factor to be considered.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Long range precision rifle shooting is about knowing what matters, what doesn't, and when it matters.

At 1000 yards it doesn't matter. At 2000 yards it is not a factor to be ignored. And the fact that your chances of a first round hit are low at 2000 yards is relevant to whether it is a factor to be considered.</div></div>

Very true Graham but unless he is using a ballistic software like Field Firing Solution or Cold Bore 1.0 or some other software that doesn't use a point mass solution, the firing solution is going to more than likely be off by a few MOA and if we are talking 2000 plus yards that is quite a ways off.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

I've also shot @ 2 thousand meters and whoever says that it is a factor to be considered is full of shit. Simply do not worry about it. Wind, wind, and more crosswind will play fuck fuck games with your round more than the curvature of the earth...Who ever says other wise has watched Shooter one to many times or has never stretched out that far.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

I have had my 300WM out to 2K yds many times, & FFS calls for a full moa more elevation with Cor enabled than it does without. I know for a fact that if I don't adjust for it @ those ranges I WILL miss. If I adjust for it I MIGHT miss.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also shot @ 2 thousand meters and whoever says that it is a factor to be considered is full of shit. Simply do not worry about it. Wind, wind, and more crosswind will play fuck fuck games with your round more than the curvature of the earth...Who ever says other wise has watched Shooter one to many times or has never stretched out that far. </div></div>Brilliant: Arguing that if you can't hit anything anyway nothing should be a factor to consider. Hmmmm.... Like arguing that wind isn't a factor if your range is incorrect, I get it now - and claiming to be the voice of experience, too.
laugh.gif


Can you hold the difference? Not always.
Do you account for it? Yes; if you can.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: emsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the advice. Obviously I'll have to walk it out and do some trial and error to see what I need to worry about and what I don't. </div></div>The problem is, if you don't account for it your trial and error will be more about chasing your errors than about properly diagnosing what the bullet is telling you. The inexperienced often end-up lost, with the result that they blame everything on the wind, or the gun, or on having to 'walk shots', or on whatever passes for a method.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

People like to repeat what they hear. They think it makes them sound like experts. But the ability to apply the knowledge is key.

It's like arguing that spin-drift doesn't matter because the wind is blowing. I know: Frank said spin drift doesn't matter. That's true in some cases but not in all cases. What he means is that at short ranges people often make mistakes on the trigger and blame it on spin drift - that they mis-diagnose the problem.

But at 2000 meters spin drift matters. It's something you have to pay attention to, unlike at 300 yards. Knowing when it matters and when it doesn't is the key. Otherwise you can end-up improperly diagnosing your errors, or even the environmental factors, at 2000 meters.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also shot @ 2 thousand meters and whoever says that it is a factor to be considered is full of shit. Simply do not worry about it. Wind, wind, and more crosswind will play fuck fuck games with your round more than the curvature of the earth...Who ever says other wise has watched Shooter one to many times or has never stretched out that far. </div></div>Brilliant: Arguing that if you can't hit anything anyway nothing should be a factor to consider. Hmmmm.... Like arguing that wind isn't a factor if your range is incorrect, I get it now - and claiming to be the voice of experience, too.
laugh.gif


Can you hold the difference? Not always.
Do you account for it? Yes; if you can.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: emsp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the advice. Obviously I'll have to walk it out and do some trial and error to see what I need to worry about and what I don't. </div></div>The problem is, if you don't account for it your trial and error will be more about chasing your errors than about properly diagnosing what the bullet is telling you. The inexperienced often end-up lost, with the result that they blame everything on the wind, or the gun, or on having to 'walk shots', or on whatever passes for a method. </div></div>

What I am saying is reading the wind is one of the most important parts if not the most important part to shooting long range after you have the range to target dialed in....reading it right and accounting for crosswinds and diffrent windage values will have the most dramatic effect on the bullet in it's path of flight. Coriolis Effect is a load of crap dramatized by ignorance....But what do I know, I was only a special operations sniper whs sole purpose in life while not deployed was being at a range and shooting to my hearts content as price of ammo was nill and using this knowledge gained at shooting at extended ranges on the battlefield...and still shooting at extended long range as precision firearms are my passion.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I am saying is reading the wind is one of the most important parts if not the most important part to shooting long range after you have the range to target dialed in..</div></div>No, that's not what you are saying. You are not stating the obvious: That knowing the range, accurately calling wind, and executing the fundamentals are important to marksmanship.

This is what you said:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also shot @ 2 thousand meters and whoever says that it is a factor to be considered is full of shit...Who ever says other wise has watched Shooter one to many times or has never stretched out that far. </div></div>You are also saying that:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coriolis Effect is a load of crap dramatized by ignorance...But what do I know, I was only a special operations sniper whs sole purpose in life while not deployed was being at a range...</div></div>The fact that you don't understand something doesn't make it a load of crap.

In my experience US 'special operations' snipers a) do a better job of learning the craft; b) rarely feel the need to put-down other people; c) know what they are saying and don't try to lie their way out of a position at the first sign of criticism; and d) don't have the sole purpose of spending their time at a range when not deployed.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I am saying is reading the wind is one of the most important parts if not the most important part to shooting long range after you have the range to target dialed in..</div></div>No, that's not what you are saying. You are not stating the obvious: That knowing the range, accurately calling wind, and executing the fundamentals are important to marksmanship.

This is what you said:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also shot @ 2 thousand meters and whoever says that it is a factor to be considered is full of shit...Who ever says other wise has watched Shooter one to many times or has never stretched out that far. </div></div>You are also saying that:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coriolis Effect is a load of crap dramatized by ignorance...But what do I know, I was only a special operations sniper whs sole purpose in life while not deployed was being at a range...</div></div>The fact that you don't understand something doesn't make it a load of crap.

In my experience US 'special operations' snipers a) do a better job of learning the craft; b) rarely feel the need to put-down other people; c) know what they are saying and don't try to lie their way out of a position at the first sign of criticism; and d) don't have the sole purpose of spending their time at a range when not deployed. </div></div>

...your internet warrior attitude is astounding Mr. know it all. I was not waging a personal attack against you, nor a pissing contest, just stating the truth that earth curvature is a bullshit movie myth based on my own personal experience...YES it may have some effect on the round but at shooting distances it is negligible.

"In my experience US 'special operations' snipers a) do a better job of learning the craft; b) rarely feel the need to put-down other people; c) know what they are saying and don't try to lie their way out of a position at the first sign of criticism; and d) don't have the sole purpose of spending their time at a range when not deployed. "

You are a tool. What experiences are these PLEASE do tell? My dd214 is in black and white....If you got issues with me please take it to a PM as we are crapping on this mans thread with useless bullshit.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...your internet warrior attitude is astounding Mr. know it all.</div></div>You are the one claiming to be a warrior; and you are the one claiming to know more than people who aren't a 'special operations' sniper like you say you are. But, unable to explain even your limited position on the topic of this Thread, you instead settle for name-calling. That's why I doubt your claims.

Allow me another example:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...just stating the truth that earth curvature is a bullshit movie myth based on my own personal experience...YES it may have some effect on the round but at shooting distances it is negligible.</div></div>You've again changed your position. But this time you claim personal knowledge of a lack of curvature of the earth, while you are either unwilling or incapable of differentiating between different distances - which is one of the keys to understanding the topic of this Thread.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are a tool. What experiences are these PLEASE do tell?</div></div>Again you are name-calling instead of explaining what you claim to know. No one here cares about my experiences any more than they care about your bragging. They do care, however, about the subject of this Thread. So, if you don't have any information to share and you can't speak knowledgeably about the subject matter, please go away. There are plenty of mutual admiration forums where you can discuss your DD214.

Here we don't accept your unsubstantiated statements that everything is 'bullshit' when backed-up only by claims that you know better because you are in 'special operations'.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Long range hits are a matter of probability. Better rifle, better shooter the odds go up. The more known factors that are plugged in means the odds go up. Coriolis is well known. However, entering the data does not assure the hit. As a simple function of mathematics the odds of any given round hitting the target is against the shooter. Of course, the wind is by far the most critical factor. This assumes that the distance to the target is correct. The math should keep us humble.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

A 214 and saying you're from Batt doesn't make you king shit around here... Graham speaks truth.

Mr 3/75 doesn't have much street cred around here, and is not really building any with this attitude either.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My dd214 is in black and white</div></div>

Do to Internet faking, from the COD crowd, 214's don't mean much any more. 201's, AAR's, debrief's ect, will get you more mileage. Still won't make everything said here true but, such is life.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I am saying is reading the wind is one of the most important parts if not the most important part to shooting long range after you have the range to target dialed in..</div></div>No, that's not what you are saying. You are not stating the obvious: That knowing the range, accurately calling wind, and executing the fundamentals are important to marksmanship.

This is what you said:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've also shot @ 2 thousand meters and whoever says that it is a factor to be considered is full of shit...Who ever says other wise has watched Shooter one to many times or has never stretched out that far. </div></div>You are also saying that:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coriolis Effect is a load of crap dramatized by ignorance...But what do I know, I was only a special operations sniper whs sole purpose in life while not deployed was being at a range...</div></div>The fact that you don't understand something doesn't make it a load of crap.

In my experience US 'special operations' snipers a) do a better job of learning the craft; b) rarely feel the need to put-down other people; c) know what they are saying and don't try to lie their way out of a position at the first sign of criticism; and d) don't have the sole purpose of spending their time at a range when not deployed. </div></div>

...your internet warrior attitude is astounding Mr. know it all. I was not waging a personal attack against you, nor a pissing contest, just stating the truth that earth curvature is a bullshit movie myth based on my own personal experience...YES it may have some effect on the round but at shooting distances it is negligible.

"In my experience US 'special operations' snipers a) do a better job of learning the craft; b) rarely feel the need to put-down other people; c) know what they are saying and don't try to lie their way out of a position at the first sign of criticism; and d) don't have the sole purpose of spending their time at a range when not deployed. "

You are a tool. What experiences are these PLEASE do tell? My dd214 is in black and white....If you got issues with me please take it to a PM as we are crapping on this mans thread with useless bullshit.
</div></div>

3/75, as US 'special operations' snipers my self I'll take you up on that PM. It might not mean a lot to most shooters on this site but I'm tired of the bad rep, our profestional image is becoming tarnished and its coming from both the fakers and some legit dudes that coming off a little to rough around the edges. I saw this same thing happen to the Scout Sniper community and I'd hate to see it happen to us. Fact is ELR has come leaps and bound in the last 6-8yrs and a good bit of that advancement has come from the civilian side. Just because a dude hasn't sat on a mountain, shitting in plastic bags and living off cliff bars for three days just to try to waste some savage excuse for a human being, doesn't mean he (or she) can't/won't have a more advanced understanding of ELR ballistics than you. There is also a good chance that their knowledge and ability to apply it might be equal to or better than yours.

As far as the original topic of the tread Graham as pretty much already drilled it pretty good. Also emsp I'd recommend spending the money and picking up a copy of Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistic For Long-Range Shooting.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Spin and Cor are Bulshit!!!
Know how I know ??????????????????

At Gunsite , 2113 meters I used the FFS program and was making hits on Man sized targets . The spin and Cor data boxes were checked .

Then I un-checked them . Try it yourself and see how far off your called dope is .

For Gods sake people , you dont even have to shoot a bullet to test this . The numbers will show you .

And just so you can see what I'm talking about

With boxes checked :
Elevation 22.2 mils
Wind .7 mils

Unchecked :
Elevation 22.2 mils
Wind 0.0

So don't use the info at that range and you missed by .7 mils

So is 48" something to figure ? Yes it is . put all your shots in a target , the take out spin. They all hit to the right 4 feet .

And that was after drinking a can of spin D , AND using slpaoff.

Guess iit's not bullshit after all !


Greg
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

I honestly keep the boxes unchecked... I never turn them on. (I have tried both ways and came to this decision based on downrange results)

Unless you are shooting an azimuth to the targets an updating the GPS information the results are gonna be wrong anyway.

With SD, the most I have put in shooting ELR was .2 mils, that was one day when the wind was especially low and I did note my wind calls did not match up left to right, but. The computer asked for .4 I cut it in half and my wind worked.

Generally speaking most people who I trust and know will say, "why wouldn't you use it because the computer includes it" I say, because I find it actually goes beyond what I need and it will actually mess up my calls up more than help them.

I will also say, I find my wind calls pretty spot on, and I do see a negative effective for me personally it on. Maybe I have learned to call everything together, but I have only needed the computer's help when the winds were really low. Then it was half of what it told me. below a consistent 3MPH it appeared in my calls as necessary adjust for.

I really think it's more a function of wind, and because it's so far we have a really hard figuring all the different aspects in, so we start looking to science in different places, which is why we start having more and more SD and CD debates.

Over 2000m terrain can play hell on wind, and can make it hard to why a lot of things happens, or really at what point it happened. Maybe the terrain effect wind kicked at 1500m, maybe 1200m, you never know so you have to find another way to justify it.

I still think in my experience that the computers are putting in too much, which helps people point to them and say, "See". IRL I use 1/2 ... if that.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you are shooting an azimuth to the targets an updating the GPS information the results are gonna be wrong anyway.</div></div>At 2000 meters one can't guess at the range: Plus or minus 25 meters can mean a miss (unless you are shooting at SCUDs
wink.gif
).

So if you want any chance of a first or second round hit, a high quality GPS/laser with compass and an advanced ballistic program is more than simply nice to have.

And still, .3 Mils of CD at 2000 meters is significant. You just notice it more when there's less wind.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Well that is the point...

I never see my misses as being as much as they should be... (because I don't turn it on) Technically speaking and when you quote scientific facts and figures, my misses should be significant, in most cases my miss should be on the other side of the target. I never see this...

Really if I am moving up, shooting a target at 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, with it all turned off, I should almost always miss to the right, but that never happens. but with it all turned on I have missed to left when I should not have, that is what convinced me to keep it off.

Checking my notes when I run beyond 1600m, I will dial in .2 of left... it's usually enough to center my calls, so I am not ignoring it. I am just not going by the computer. I am going my personal experience. where a rule of thumb .2 mils works...its the same as everything being based off 1 MOA at 1000 for SD, I just cut it in half, and don't start using it until 1500m+

I can also call the wind for others and be on, and I have no clue what they have in their rifle or computer, except the wind. That is also pretty telling, if one guy has it on and the other has it off, my wind calls should be wrong, rarely is that the case.

Even with the people turning the stuff on with the Apps, shooting inside 1200m, they aren't shooting a compass bearing to the target, they aren't updating their location on the map, so how can it be right so to say, "I use CD" with my ballistic computer. I bet they look to the wind as the mistake and not the fact they are turning these things on without setting it up correctly.


 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Doesn't that mostly depend on the azimuth to the target. When I compute a solution with FFS @ 2000 yd I usualy get an elevation adjustment, not a wind adjustment. But for the most part I'm shooting close to due N (345*) @ my ELR spot. When I reverse the azimuth the elevation changes slightly again. Neither calls for any wind correction. Both directions are different than the solution if the Cor is off. The max difference @ 2000 yd I show is still only 1 moa. which @ 2000 yd is significant.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

there is a setting for windage too... there are 4 settings

Spin Drift
Vertical Deflection (which I have on)
Coriolis / Eovtvos
and also
magnetic variation

you can also turn on powder temp.

as a post script

Looking at both my units, one does have Coriolis / Magnetic Variation and Vertical deflection on, I do however have SD off with both units.

So one unit is running Coriolis the other is not...
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

If you factor CE in understand that the vertical component and the horizontal component are independent from each other. Shooting due east bullet impacts are high and due west low by about 4” at 1000 yards (general statement here). Horizontal is more complex but still a rather small but constant factor at a particular location on the world ball. The further you are from the equator the larger the affect in either hemisphere. Unless you input your proper location and azimuth of a shot every time, you will have bad numbers although small.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

I have SD off, & Cor on. Havent done much trial of vert. deflection, so I can't comment.(wind around here is usually either very light, or blowing like stink, so I havent seen a need to adjust for it) I have the old/original version of FFS, & there is a corrected compass reading, & Lat. When I enter everything with a 0 mph wind component I get 0 wind correction @ 2000 yd using a 345* azimuth. It only changes the elevation correction. SD calls for a huge correction which I know from experience isn't right, so I have taken your advice, & half it at best, but usually keep it turned off.
Also, as I'm about as far north as you can get without being in Canada, my results might differ from most.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Using the software we are testing, if you fail to enter correct data, such as azimuth to target, correct distance, temperature, elevation, barometric pressure, etc, you will miss the target at 3000 plus yards. If you enter good data, you get a solid solution an a recorded hit. Selected data omission is not an option.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

Sorry if this was stated above (didn't see it but I'm watching SF and Falcons game also). I don't have the experience here of many of you shooting long range but I read a couple comments here about coriolis force that make me think there's some misunderstanding about exactly what it is. Coriolis is what, for example, causes large bodies of water to rotate in opposite direction relative to whether they are north or south of the equator. It originates from the rotation of the earth and where you are on the surface of the earth. It isn't related to curvature of the earth or east west position.

Picture this, when you launch something into the air, it is not physically connected to the earth any more and therefore the earth is rotating underneath it. As you can picture in your mind, coriolis will vary depending on your distance from the equator and whether you are shooting E-W (with or against earth rotation) or N-S at 90 degrees to rotation, or something in between.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Picture this, when you launch something into the air, it is not physically connected to the earth any more and therefore the earth is rotating underneath it. As you can picture in your mind, coriolis will vary depending on your distance from the equator and whether you are shooting E-W (with or against earth rotation) or N-S at 90 degrees to rotation, or something in between.</div></div>

This is only partially true because the earth drags layers of air with it.

There are several factors, height above the ground, time of flight, etc.

You can throw a baseball higher in the air than the bullet travels, with a longer sustained time of flight and we don't have to run after it because we moved away.

We have air layers, like a skin that moves much less than if you viewed the rotation from space. Most people figure the rotational speed as if viewed from space, you have to adjust it to account for the layer of air we live under that moves with the earth that also changes the equation.

Artillery goes high, slow and far, it's gonna see the effects more than a bullet. If you think about it, if we used the complete rotation speed we'd have a tough time breathing in a 1000 MPH wind, plus at the poles the earth only Mose 1cm per day. This is why you need a GPS.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

No argument at all. I was just trying to keep it as simple as possible given some of the comments I saw.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Picture this, when you launch something into the air, it is not physically connected to the earth any more and therefore the earth is rotating underneath it. As you can picture in your mind, coriolis will vary depending on your distance from the equator and whether you are shooting E-W (with or against earth rotation) or N-S at 90 degrees to rotation, or something in between.</div></div>

This is only partially true because the earth drags layers of air with it.

There are several factors, height above the ground, time of flight, etc.

You can throw a baseball higher in the air than the bullet travels, with a longer sustained time of flight and we don't have to run after it because we moved away.

We have air layers, like a skin that moves much less than if you viewed the rotation from space. Most people figure the rotational speed as if viewed from space, you have to adjust it to account for the layer of air we live under that moves with the earth that also changes the equation.

Artillery goes high, slow and far, it's gonna see the effects more than a bullet. If you think about it, if we used the complete rotation speed we'd have a tough time breathing in a 1000 MPH wind, plus at the poles the earth only Mose 1cm per day. This is why you need a GPS. </div></div>
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DanGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Picture this, when you launch something into the air, it is not physically connected to the earth any more and therefore the earth is rotating underneath it. As you can picture in your mind, coriolis will vary depending on your distance from the equator and whether you are shooting E-W (with or against earth rotation) or N-S at 90 degrees to rotation, or something in between.</div></div>

This is only partially true because the earth drags layers of air with it.

There are several factors, height above the ground, time of flight, etc.

You can throw a baseball higher in the air than the bullet travels, with a longer sustained time of flight and we don't have to run after it because we moved away.

We have air layers, like a skin that moves much less than if you viewed the rotation from space. Most people figure the rotational speed as if viewed from space, you have to adjust it to account for the layer of air we live under that moves with the earth that also changes the equation.

Artillery goes high, slow and far, it's gonna see the effects more than a bullet. If you think about it, if we used the complete rotation speed we'd have a tough time breathing in a 1000 MPH wind, plus at the poles the earth only Mose 1cm per day. This is why you need a GPS. </div></div>

It's all relative. When you throw a baseball in the air you perceive it to be straight up into the air. Watch the space shuttle launch, there is a reason why it starts to arc, that's a perfect example of the Coriolis effect. Time of flight doesn't so much play a role as time of flight and distance of flight that really show the Coriolis effect. I'm going to go thumb through Litz's book again. I'm sure he knows more about this then the majority of us combined. What I'm curious to see is what azimuth every one is shooting that says it has no left/right affect. I think some people on here don't understand it has a elevation aspect as well as an windage aspect depending on whether your shooting N/S or E/W or a combination of those. Any pilots of here? Lets see what they have to say about flying without using GPS, just a compass bearing and ground speed. I'm no expert but I'm curious to see what people other then shooters who deal with this have to say.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

A while ago I clicked on the ? tab in FFS for Cor, & it basicly said that the azimuth dictates the elevation correction, & the Lat dictates the windage correction. As my Lat is usually above 48.2*N I get no windage correction at all no matter what azimuth I enter. Depending on the azimuth I may get up to 1 1/4 moa elevation @ 2000 yd tho.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A while ago I clicked on the ? tab in FFS for Cor, & it basicly said that the azimuth dictates the elevation correction, & the Lat dictates the windage correction. As my Lat is usually above 48.2*N I get no windage correction at all no matter what azimuth I enter. Depending on the azimuth I may get up to 1 1/4 moa elevation @ 2000 yd tho. </div></div>

Firing in any direction (at a fixed latitude) gives the same horizontal drift.

When you shoot North to South you only get windage to the right. The same with South to North (again only to the right!). No elevation.

When firing to the East Coriolis counteracts gravity and causes the bullet to strike slightly higher. Firing to the West Coriolis reinforces gravity and the bullet strikes lower.
 
Re: Coriolis Effect



3/75, as US 'special operations' snipers my self I'll take you up on that PM. It might not mean a lot to most shooters on this site but I'm tired of the bad rep, our profestional image is becoming tarnished and its coming from both the fakers and some legit dudes that coming off a little to rough around the edges. I saw this same thing happen to the Scout Sniper community and I'd hate to see it happen to us. Fact is ELR has come leaps and bound in the last 6-8yrs and a good bit of that advancement has come from the civilian side. Just because a dude hasn't sat on a mountain, shitting in plastic bags and living off cliff bars for three days just to try to waste some savage excuse for a human being, doesn't mean he (or she) can't/won't have a more advanced understanding of ELR ballistics than you. There is also a good chance that their knowledge and ability to apply it might be equal to or better than yours.

As far as the original topic of the tread Graham as pretty much already drilled it pretty good. Also emsp I'd recommend spending the money and picking up a copy of Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistic For Long-Range Shooting. [/quote]


I just met a retired Green Beret a couple of weeks ago when I was out duck hunting. I had just got my new boat ready and running. They retired him after 21 yrs of service, most of it as a Green Beret, and maybe 2-3 yrs as a ranger/sniper before he went to the Special Ops side of the house. He was a great guy to talk to, and we ended up duck hunting the rest of the day and shot some divers (diving ducks) before the sun went down. These guys are very smart and helpful, and their rep is not tarnished with me at all. I have met a few green berets before, and they are all the same: resourceful, to the point, intelligent, and know what they're doing. So I am with you RoBird. Green Berets are great guys, and along with other special ops/rangers/snipers/seal/recon, are America's true heroes, and not some guy who throws a basketball for a living. Just thought I'd throw that last clause in there, true as it is.
 
AT RO_BIRD and Graham, this thread is missing the Answers, So Can you Two Gentlemen please tell me what you do to Adjust for CE (math wise) and as for SD wont the amount change Due to the Twist rate of the barrel X the Distance, This is a great topic and does this effect a .308 differently to what umm say a .270 or a hot 30-06

Johnny 5 is alive, input input input

John
 
John: Since you resurrected this thread to life (which is fine by me, since I was also looking forward to the experienced shooters conclusions) I'll just provide my two cents:

on a .308 I start to consider/include SD in calculations at around 400m onwards, over 1100m (when my bullet goes subsonic) I add an extra click (0.1mil) to the computed ballistic solution, but I usually ignore the CE (furthest I shot with a 308 was 1,500m, but the wind/SD dope was enormous and CE would be negligible)

on a .338 I start to consider/include SD in calculations at around 600m onwards, and I also start adjusting for CE over 1000m (at distances below 1,500m it's a matter of not being in the target center, over 1,500m it's a matter of possibly missing the target completely)

It's a simple approach that so far has worked for me well.

Note - if you use Kestrel with Horus, AFAIK the ballistic calculation takes into consideration SD automatically (difference easily seen/calculated/verified if you manually reverse the azimuth of the wind), as well as CE (of course you need to set your target azimuth first). I usually go by my gut on wind estimates on ELR, but SD/CE calculations I entrust to Kestrel/Horus. If I don't have my Kestrel or cell/PDA with ballistic software, I just guesstimate both depending on distance to target.

I do agree that reading the wind/crosswind is the key to LR/ELR, and CE is a minimal portion of the dope you usually need, but Coriolis was actually the small difference that let me become the Polish 1km Champion last year (the German shooter who finished second used the same wind and SD dope, but he forgot to add a click for CE, which in the end meant I was in the X target center and he was in the 9s).

Of course YMMV, depending on your caliber/twist/orientation of the shooting, etc., so good luck and shoot safe!


Gun_Slinger
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A while ago I clicked on the ? tab in FFS for Cor, & it basicly said that the azimuth dictates the elevation correction, & the Lat dictates the windage correction. As my Lat is usually above 48.2*N I get no windage correction at all no matter what azimuth I enter. Depending on the azimuth I may get up to 1 1/4 moa elevation @ 2000 yd tho. </div></div>

Firing in any direction (at a fixed latitude) gives the same horizontal drift.

When you shoot North to South you only get windage to the right. The same with South to North (again only to the right!). No elevation.

When firing to the East Coriolis counteracts gravity and causes the bullet to strike slightly higher. Firing to the West Coriolis reinforces gravity and the bullet strikes lower.

See this is where it does not make sence because the Bullet when fired is no longer attached to the ground and the ground is still spinning underneath it, so really east west and west east I understand But which ever way the planet turns when you shoot north its going to move further right?? and if you shoot south wont it still miss only a smaller amount, ( sorry I cant remember which way it turns because I am getting ahead of my self )

John
 
John: Since you resurrected this thread to life (which is fine by me, since I was also looking forward to the experienced shooters conclusions) I'll just provide my two cents:

on a .308 I start to consider/include SD in calculations at around 400m onwards, over 1100m (when my bullet goes subsonic) I add an extra click (0.1mil) to the computed ballistic solution, but I usually ignore the CE (furthest I shot with a 308 was 1,500m, but the wind/SD dope was enormous and CE would be negligible)

on a .338 I start to consider/include SD in calculations at around 600m onwards, and I also start adjusting for CE over 1000m (at distances below 1,500m it's a matter of not being in the target center, over 1,500m it's a matter of possibly missing the target completely)

It's a simple approach that so far has worked for me well.

Note - if you use Kestrel with Horus, AFAIK the ballistic calculation takes into consideration SD automatically (difference easily seen/calculated/verified if you manually reverse the azimuth of the wind), as well as CE (of course you need to set your target azimuth first). I usually go by my gut on wind estimates on ELR, but SD/CE calculations I entrust to Kestrel/Horus. If I don't have my Kestrel or cell/PDA with ballistic software, I just guesstimate both depending on distance to target.

I do agree that reading the wind/crosswind is the key to LR/ELR, and CE is a minimal portion of the dope you usually need, but Coriolis was actually the small difference that let me become the Polish 1km Champion last year (the German shooter who finished second used the same wind and SD dope, but he forgot to add a click for CE, which in the end meant I was in the X target center and he was in the 9s).

Of course YMMV, depending on your caliber/twist/orientation of the shooting, etc., so good luck and shoot safe!


Gun_Slinger

Hi and thankyou, You say you add 0.1 [MENTION=40422]400m[/MENTION] and at 1K you add 0.2mrads??? which equals about 7.85 inches but when I type in that data bullet flight says 1.4moa/16 inches= 4 clicks, ( when in fact it should be about 5.6 clicks ) and when I convert 1.4 moa with a calc, it then tells me that it is 14.658inches and this was using their M40A3 with M118LR Data and for some reason I can not make the figures match up, My other app does not have SD or Coriolis on it so I can not use it to get another answer,

But Bullet Flight is very restrictive with how you access things, everything is hidden in other pages unlike Strelok+,

I have never missed by that much and now I need to start again.

John
 
John/MilDot1960: Sorry, I probably didn't write it out as clearly as I'd hoped - what I meant is that for my .308 with a tight right twist barrel I start to consider/include SD in calculations starting at around 400m, below 400meters I'll use the same amount of windage dope whether the wind is blowing right-to-left, or left-to-right (azimuth 90 or 270). Using my range card when over 400 meters I'll slowly start adding extra dope for SD (1 click at 400m, and about 3 clicks at 1km - which corresponds to your calculations) for right-to-left wind, or subtract for left-to-right wind. Finally, at 1km I add one right click for horizontal coriolis (in USA and in Europe - around 43-46th degrees latitude - imagine it as correcting for an 'extremely mild wind' blowing from your 9 o Clock). For vertical coriolis you add an elevation click if you're shooting in western direction, for eastern direction you subtract an elevation click, and if you're shooting north or south you just ignore it.

Example, at 725 meters for 3ms wind coming at 3 o Clock I'd use 8 clicks dope, but for the same strength 3ms wind coming at 9 o Clock I'd use 12 clicks dope (numbers just for illustration, don't have my range card on me :D Of course this is a bit simplified, in the regions I shoot the wind pretty much never stays constant (intensity and/or direction), so I just estimate overall wind effect on bullet combining what I see at three or four different positions (I usually consider the wind at the shooting position, then in the first third of bullet's path, at the bullet's highest trajectory point, and finally what I see happening at the target as having the least influence), so in my example above I estimate the combined wind effect to be about 10 clicks for this 725m target, I dial it in and then for left-to-right wind I subtract two clicks for SD totalling 8 clicks dope, or add the 2clicks for right-to-left wind for a total of 12 clicks dope. I don't worry about coriolis until well over 900meters.

Note - Kestrel with Horus (not sure about the new one with Applied Ballistics software though) does this automatically for you - if you manually change the direction/azimuth of the wind (say 90 to 270), you will get different windage value, and you also get slight variances if you change the geographical latitude value in the settings, or modify the twist-rate in 'Gun' settings. If you are using other ballistic software which does not let you change the latitude, modify the twist rate, or if you get same windage value calculation at all distances whether the wind blows from your right or left, you may need to do the SD/CE calculations/adjustments on top of the software's ballistic solution.

Of course then you also have the other factors – visual mirage image shifting, position of the sun and clouds in relation to the target, etc. that no ballistic software that I know of takes into account, and for those you just have to rely on your gut/experience.

Hope this explains it better, and of course YMMV - some rifles/twists/bullets/... are more 'prone' to SD/CE and some are less, and if you just want to bang steel plates you don't need to worry too much about SD and coriolis, but if you need surgical accuracy or need to hit the bull's eye way out there cold-bore, all of these factors should be considered.

Good luck and shoot safe,


Gun_Slinger
 
I can't say I've ever factored it in, but I can say that I studied it for a bit in university and it's pretty complex shit to consider, given all the other stuff that's more important. Personally, if I were gonna factor it, I'd want a computer.

If by hand, I'd want a range card. If on the fly, I'd want a set of good guesstimates to go by.

The effect is quite complicated and I guess it's more of a concern with ballistic missiles. In practice, I can't honestly say when it comes into effect shooting, in theory I'd say it starts the instant it leaves the muzzle. Downrange wind going opposite directions is a much bigger concern.
 
John/MilDot1960: Sorry, I probably didn't write it out as clearly as I'd hoped - what I meant is that for my .308 with a tight right twist barrel I start to consider/include SD in calculations starting at around 400m, below 400meters I'll use the same amount of windage dope whether the wind is blowing right-to-left, or left-to-right (azimuth 90 or 270). Using my range card when over 400 meters I'll slowly start adding extra dope for SD (1 click at 400m, and about 3 clicks at 1km - which corresponds to your calculations) for right-to-left wind, or subtract for left-to-right wind. Finally, at 1km I add one right click for horizontal coriolis (in USA and in Europe - around 43-46th degrees latitude - imagine it as correcting for an 'extremely mild wind' blowing from your 9 o Clock). For vertical coriolis you add an elevation click if you're shooting in western direction, for eastern direction you subtract an elevation click, and if you're shooting north or south you just ignore it.

Example, at 725 meters for 3ms wind coming at 3 o Clock I'd use 8 clicks dope, but for the same strength 3ms wind coming at 9 o Clock I'd use 12 clicks dope (numbers just for illustration, don't have my range card on me :D Of course this is a bit simplified, in the regions I shoot the wind pretty much never stays constant (intensity and/or direction), so I just estimate overall wind effect on bullet combining what I see at three or four different positions (I usually consider the wind at the shooting position, then in the first third of bullet's path, at the bullet's highest trajectory point, and finally what I see happening at the target as having the least influence), so in my example above I estimate the combined wind effect to be about 10 clicks for this 725m target, I dial it in and then for left-to-right wind I subtract two clicks for SD totalling 8 clicks dope, or add the 2clicks for right-to-left wind for a total of 12 clicks dope. I don't worry about coriolis until well over 900meters.

Note - Kestrel with Horus (not sure about the new one with Applied Ballistics software though) does this automatically for you - if you manually change the direction/azimuth of the wind (say 90 to 270), you will get different windage value, and you also get slight variances if you change the geographical latitude value in the settings, or modify the twist-rate in 'Gun' settings. If you are using other ballistic software which does not let you change the latitude, modify the twist rate, or if you get same windage value calculation at all distances whether the wind blows from your right or left, you may need to do the SD/CE calculations/adjustments on top of the software's ballistic solution.

Of course then you also have the other factors – visual mirage image shifting, position of the sun and clouds in relation to the target, etc. that no ballistic software that I know of takes into account, and for those you just have to rely on your gut/experience.

Hope this explains it better, and of course YMMV - some rifles/twists/bullets/... are more 'prone' to SD/CE and some are less, and if you just want to bang steel plates you don't need to worry too much about SD and coriolis, but if you need surgical accuracy or need to hit the bull's eye way out there cold-bore, all of these factors should be considered.

Good luck and shoot safe,


Gun_Slinger

Thats Great Thanks, Now I understand that? well most of it, Because I just bought the pro version of my Apps with SD/CE but theres an issue with its formulas because it gives me differant come ups to what the other two versions do although the SD/CE's are now there,

The Kestrel I have is the normal 4000NV, So if I add the weather data then get the corrected solution all I have to do is Add the correct SD/CE to the end result and that should work then Yes???

John
 
John: Yes (assuming you have everything else in your ballistics worked out).

Word of advice - if you use 4000NV, after you input all atmospherical data into the software, you might want to leave Kestrel's screen on DALT (density altitude) and occasionally verify it (change in DALT will give you indication of sudden atmospherical change - it can be rapidly changing baro pressure, temperature rise/drop, etc.). And even that is not always visible - you may get the same DALT reading when humidity change offsets slight baro pressure change, etc. and one might not notice that the ballistic solution should be re-calculated. And you probably already know that for real surgical ELR precision there's a ton of other variables as well, all the way from barrel temperature to the actual temperature of the round you are chambering, etc., but most of these cause minimal differences that one often cannot correct with coarse/tactical 0.1 mil clicks.

However, in my experience the most common cause of misses in ELR is error in wind estimation, and spindrift and coriolis effect (better said - lack of compensating for them) is usually attributed to this as well.

Bottom line - to finally shut my mouth since I'm probably preaching to the choir, ELR is about perfection, but even if you do have perfectly worked out ballistics (banding/trueing and compensating for all variables), you have perfect shooting/trigger execution, you are using perfect rifle and perfectly reloaded ammo, etc. there is still a small portion of 'shooter's luck' involved. We can get very close, but math/physics/sensors/technology/doppler and actual empirical data etc. all only go so far, and until we'll all switch to laser-guided bullets (or at least will have access to cheap multiple-laser-atmo-scanning devices able to monitor and 'predict' the wind conditions along the complete bullet flight), until then we'll never be able to compute ballistic solution that would work 100% time, and perhaps not even then... :rolleyes:

Sorry for my long post again, good luck and shoot safe :)


Gun_Slinger