I am really considering getting into thermal or night vision for hunting and wanted to bounce some ideas of you guys that have first hand experience. I have seen a lot of hunting shows and youtube videos where the guys use white, red or greed lights and have good luck so I wondered if that combined with a thermal monocular would be the way to go versus a scope? My thoughts were to scan with the thermal and light them up when you spot them. From what I've read a thermal monocular with a 3rd gen night vision scope would be ideal but I don't really have money for both. I think it would be nice to not have to swing the rifle to scan for coyotes but I don't want to buy that and regret not going a different route. Let me know what you guys think. I was thinking of keeping it under $5k for a budget.
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Night Vision Coyote hunting setup questions
- Thread starter Bradu
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You can get a pretty good thermal scope for $5k. Like a Trail 50mm.
I go with "swing the rifle around" most nights. I am out on coop defense and it is faster and easier just to take the rifle with the thermal on it.
But I'm on familiar ground and not having to navigate across miles of territory. I take more crap in different cases.
I've heard of people going with a thermal monocular and a white light, so it isn't impossible. And if you only had a $2k budget, that might be the solution, but for a $2500 budget or above, you can afford a thermal scope and I'd go that way.
You could probably get two Pulsar APEX for $2,500 each ($5000 total) ... and use one on the rifle and hold one in your hand!
I go with "swing the rifle around" most nights. I am out on coop defense and it is faster and easier just to take the rifle with the thermal on it.
But I'm on familiar ground and not having to navigate across miles of territory. I take more crap in different cases.
I've heard of people going with a thermal monocular and a white light, so it isn't impossible. And if you only had a $2k budget, that might be the solution, but for a $2500 budget or above, you can afford a thermal scope and I'd go that way.
You could probably get two Pulsar APEX for $2,500 each ($5000 total) ... and use one on the rifle and hold one in your hand!
That's actually the model I was looking at. I've kicked around the idea of saving up and getting the reap ir but I don't know if I can justify that kind of money on thermal. It sounds like I will stick with the original plan of getting a scope vs the monocular.
It's more that I don't know if I will use it enough to justify the cost. I need to get more ground to hunt if I spent that much. I would probably sell an AI to offset the cost. Missouri doesnt allow it so that kind of screwd up some of my hunting ground.
i dont have as much experience as some on here but i can tell you i have a thermal spotter and it is indespensable. maybe it is just me but i have walked up to elk and deer at night using my thermal spotter, then i flip down my nv goggles and i can't see them. it's crazy. even when i turn on my luna eir 2, it is hard to see them unless they turn their eyes just right and you get some eye shine. this is if they are not moving though although they are staring at me (what i mean is even staring right at me 200 yds or more, it is hard to get an eye shine). anyway, it must just be me because plenty of guys shoot coyotes with nv, i mean, i am still learning but that has been my experience. in my opinion, if you want to spot coyotes at night, go thermal.
I started with thermal and it is (with the right conditions) an amazing piece of gear. Thermal now serves as my primary handheld scanning optic. 2018 will be my 1st attempt at using the pvs-30. Just finished moving a couple day optics around to be compatible with the NV. As Wigwamitus can attest moving optics around and keeping a returnable zero can be a daunting task. And yes (NV has its limitations). I have set the bar pretty high for myself this year. My goal: during hours of darkness shoot a 300 pound hog one inch below the ear at a distance of 300 yards with a 6.5cm. The PVS-30 refurbished is within your range. Read posts by wigwamitus and killswitch. Enjoy the journey Bradu
I highly recommend having a thermal scanner separate from the rifle. Not only is it unsafe to swing the rifle around to scan, it becomes tiring in very little time. If money is an issue and $5000 is at the high end of your budget, look at the Pulsar XQ lineup of scopes and scanners. They won’t be as good as a REAP-IR or as clear as the Pulsar XP line but you will be able to purchase a scanner and a scope and stay within your budget if you shop around. If the XQ lineup doesn’t meet your needs then I would recommend saving until you can afford a scanner and a scope. I’ve seen people become very frustrated night hunting with a scope only and trying to use it to scan and shoot.
That's definitely the "classic" answer, and I used to give that answer myself ... but going out on coop patrol 1-3 times per night, for the past 2 years (since we got chickens) has changed my mind. As to holding up the rifle, Well, I mostly use a carbine ...
I purposely go "light and handy" so I can move fast if needed and even jump down into or out of the creek as needed. I don't usually carry the shooting stick, but I do sometimes. But one of the carbines I do carry, unless I am "ratting" in which case, I take the .22lr ... here is the carbine with the Trijicon thermal on top.
So I put the butt stock up on my right shoulder and both elbows against my body. The support hand is palm up under the rear of the forearm and the trigger hand is gripping the base of the 30rd magazine. With that hold, I can maintain the rifle up essentially all the time during a 2 hour outting. I do drop it down when I am moving fast. But I can move slowly and do 360s with that setup and hold.
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So, in summary, I think "you can train for it" to hold the rifle/carbine up a lot. It works for me anyway. Not saying anyone has to do it, just saying it works for me an n of 1.
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On the "safety" side. Well I guess that depends on your requirements. At night around here, the main requirements for safety for me are not to shoot our buildings and not to shoot our cattle and not to shoot any deer (not allowed). I purposely position myself to give best fields of fire, balancing terrain visibility and shot safety. Like I don't setup with the buildings in front of me. If I am near the buildings at all, I try to stand in their moon shadows. But out here in a rural setting (my county is 7 humans per square mile), we don't have many "NO SHOOT" scenarios ... and again, buildings cattle and deer are the vast majority of those and I think I'd be facing those whether I was holding up all the time or not. If you will shoot, you have to hold up and you have to pull the trigger and you'd better be sure what you are shooting and what is behind it ... and that is ALWAYS true.
I do these things on my land and I know really well where everything else. So that helps also. But again, each person should optimize their behavior to be safe in their circumstances!
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I am in a similar boat to the op and trying to educate myself prior to purchasing my first thermal.
That said, I have two questions regarding the above posts.
How do thermal rifle scopes vs scanners compare with "field of view" so to speak ?
Also, is it possible to have a thermal rifle scope that could attach via a QD system, so it could be detached and used to scan and reattached for shooting ?
That said, I have two questions regarding the above posts.
How do thermal rifle scopes vs scanners compare with "field of view" so to speak ?
Also, is it possible to have a thermal rifle scope that could attach via a QD system, so it could be detached and used to scan and reattached for shooting ?
264win
thermal optics generally have "FOV" in their spec data, so you can see the FOV for each device. Usually shown in "degrees" and "feet" at 100yds or "meters" at 100 meters, or some close variation.
Generally ,the more magnification, the less the FOV and vice versa, the less the magnification the more the FOV.
There are scanners with plenty of magnification and thermal scopes also and some with no magnification. So about 1x up to about 5x, though there is at least one case of 8x that I can think of off the top of my head.
So as far as FOV, it isn't so much scanners versus scopes, but more magnification versus FOV.
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I'd say any scope with a QD could be used this way. I've done this myself with an Apollo (I was using the Apollo as a 1x scope). I used a Larue rail clip on the top rail, so I could remount quickly by feel alone to exactly the same rail position and I practiced it 100+ times (without looking). You will get perhaps a 1 inch POI shift per 100 yds on any given remount. But one of the key variables is the human remount factor, so by practicing 100 times, you can reduce the impact of that variable.
Short answer it can be done, but the "return to zero" is not likely to be 100% perfect. If hunting a large enough critter, like a hog at a close enough distance, like inside 100yds, it won't matter.
I had a lanyard on the Apollo at all times. That way, when I pulled it off the gun, I could slip the lanyard around my neck. That prevented dropping the thermal. While using it as a scanner. And when I remounted the optic on the gun, I slipped the lanyard off my neck.
^^ Apollo with lanyard.
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The Apollo was my first thermal and it was also a clipon. So I used it as a clipon, a scanner and a dedicated scope. I actually used it the least as a clipon once I realized the limitations of most under $10k thermal clipons. But as a 1x scope and 1x scanner it was fine and I used it in those roles a lot.
^^ Apollo as a clipon in front of V/O g2 Rzr 1-6x on .22LR(16), note the lanyard hanging down
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thermal optics generally have "FOV" in their spec data, so you can see the FOV for each device. Usually shown in "degrees" and "feet" at 100yds or "meters" at 100 meters, or some close variation.
Generally ,the more magnification, the less the FOV and vice versa, the less the magnification the more the FOV.
There are scanners with plenty of magnification and thermal scopes also and some with no magnification. So about 1x up to about 5x, though there is at least one case of 8x that I can think of off the top of my head.
So as far as FOV, it isn't so much scanners versus scopes, but more magnification versus FOV.
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I'd say any scope with a QD could be used this way. I've done this myself with an Apollo (I was using the Apollo as a 1x scope). I used a Larue rail clip on the top rail, so I could remount quickly by feel alone to exactly the same rail position and I practiced it 100+ times (without looking). You will get perhaps a 1 inch POI shift per 100 yds on any given remount. But one of the key variables is the human remount factor, so by practicing 100 times, you can reduce the impact of that variable.
Short answer it can be done, but the "return to zero" is not likely to be 100% perfect. If hunting a large enough critter, like a hog at a close enough distance, like inside 100yds, it won't matter.
I had a lanyard on the Apollo at all times. That way, when I pulled it off the gun, I could slip the lanyard around my neck. That prevented dropping the thermal. While using it as a scanner. And when I remounted the optic on the gun, I slipped the lanyard off my neck.
^^ Apollo with lanyard.
==
The Apollo was my first thermal and it was also a clipon. So I used it as a clipon, a scanner and a dedicated scope. I actually used it the least as a clipon once I realized the limitations of most under $10k thermal clipons. But as a 1x scope and 1x scanner it was fine and I used it in those roles a lot.
^^ Apollo as a clipon in front of V/O g2 Rzr 1-6x on .22LR(16), note the lanyard hanging down
==
Weapon scanning sucks and is not very effective. If 5k is your budget then try to find a Scout III and Pro pts233 gun sight or similar, probably get get it done for around 5 paying cash.
I have a thermal spotter as well as thermal stand alone weapon mounted.
If Im going out on foot, I tend to just take the carbine with thermal scope only.
Less cumbersome for me.. the biggest reason I do this is because more often than not,
as Im holding the weapon up to scan, I am also in a ready to fire positon.
I have shot more coyotes from this spot/ stalk method than any other.
If I had not been rifle ready while scanning, I would have cost me the opportunity
to shoot on several occasions. Because I was already up and ready to go, I
had shots at coyotes that had mere couple seconds of a shot window.
One time in particular, I was walking along standing corn field. Coyote emerged
for just a mere moment, and turned to head back in.. Bam.. I anchored him.
If I had been on a spotter, with rifle slung.. Not gonna happen that time.
So the cost is you have to pay the tax of your rifles weight with your arms, but
like Wig stated above.. you find ways to carry the rig to pass the load off.
You get used to it. Building your rig light and short also is key.
This method works for me because I still hunt alone and on familiar ground, much again
like Wig stated..
I also use my handheld thermal alot, especially when another hunter or hunters are with me.. either they use it or we share it, hand it back in forth, or whatever. I still tend to
look via rifle mounted thermal the most though.. the advantage of being a safetly click
away from GO time is paramount for me..
If Im going out on foot, I tend to just take the carbine with thermal scope only.
Less cumbersome for me.. the biggest reason I do this is because more often than not,
as Im holding the weapon up to scan, I am also in a ready to fire positon.
I have shot more coyotes from this spot/ stalk method than any other.
If I had not been rifle ready while scanning, I would have cost me the opportunity
to shoot on several occasions. Because I was already up and ready to go, I
had shots at coyotes that had mere couple seconds of a shot window.
One time in particular, I was walking along standing corn field. Coyote emerged
for just a mere moment, and turned to head back in.. Bam.. I anchored him.
If I had been on a spotter, with rifle slung.. Not gonna happen that time.
So the cost is you have to pay the tax of your rifles weight with your arms, but
like Wig stated above.. you find ways to carry the rig to pass the load off.
You get used to it. Building your rig light and short also is key.
This method works for me because I still hunt alone and on familiar ground, much again
like Wig stated..
I also use my handheld thermal alot, especially when another hunter or hunters are with me.. either they use it or we share it, hand it back in forth, or whatever. I still tend to
look via rifle mounted thermal the most though.. the advantage of being a safetly click
away from GO time is paramount for me..
I want to put it on a DT covert if I go with a scope so it's a little on the heavier side but I also have a tripod to use while hunting. It sounds like I may buy the scope first then buy a monocular if I feel it's necessary. The comment about having a short window to shoot makes a lot of sense since I know that's an issue with coyote hunting in some spots.
Do you already have the DT covert? If not I'd suggest getting a basic AR setup and using the money saved on the rifle to invest further into NV and Thermal. It will be much more beneficial than spent on the rifle and IMO a semi auto is better for night hunting anyway due to quicker follow ups.
I'd do a thermal handheld like a Trijicon M250 or M300W regardless of which way you go for weapon optic and either a high quality thermal scope (MKII, MKIII, REAP-IR) or a NV clip on with your day optic.
I've got a ld19a pulsar scanner and am very pleased with it (@$1400). I had a xd50s and the field of view and zoom wasn't working for me. The 19 has a much larger field of view and I've identified coyotes at 500+ by their movement as they come in. Standing still - no. But for the $1400 I paid for my 19, I also bought a armasignt vampire scope ($600 ebay) and have made shots out to 150, that scope is very clear and with a good IR I can see targets at 400 yards pretty easy its only a 3x though. I lose a valuable couple seconds switching from the scanner to the scope, then if I cant find them in scope, I'm back in the scanner and more lost seconds. Like Ballistic1 said, you gotta be quick. I also have a Pulsar RXQ30 core scope and a pvs 14 that have their place and I don't have the perfect setup worked out yet. But for your budget of 5K, there are a lot of very good options out there.
Your setup sounds like it works well for your scenario and you have had much success with it.
My night hunting setup is different and exclusive to calling for coyotes. Some of my stands have lasted a very long time, some lasting a couple of hours without taking a step. Targets come from and can be detected well over a mile away and in almost 360 degree range. Holding a rifle for scanning over that time and covering that amount of area is more than I can handle.
On the safety side; the population density is probably 0.1 people per square mile (census data only states <1/mile) and the nearest building may be 5 miles away or more. I don’t feel comfortable pointing my rifle at anything I don’t intend to kill and the amount of livestock, small game, and wild game that can be viewed from my stand locations can number in the hundreds.
These are the types of things anyone looking to make such significant investments into thermal equipment should be thinking about before dropping the cash. There are too many variables to intended uses to say there is a one size fits all solution.
https://catchthemeasy.com/best-thermal-scope-for-coyote-hunting-reviews/ has a list of some cheaper thermal scopes to check out if you're not looking to spend much.
Brad, jump in your truck and head down my way. You can try out my setup and see how it would work for you. You can also visit with your old welder. Ha.
You certainly can use a thermal scanner and then light them up with a spot, that's how we did it before the availability of the Russian stuff and now consumer and surplus mil available night vision. Of course, after the first outing with the thermal scanner you'll want a thermal weaponsight (or NV) anyway so you might as well bust out the checkbook.
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