Rifle Scopes CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

[BobD]

Hey guys, I've posted this in the optic discussion but can't seem to get any response, so I'm posting here in hope to get some advice.

I've been searching for another optic to go atop my rock river rig (5.56 16" chrome molly free float) for a while now. I have already done the holosight/magnifier combo and would like to interchange with a variable power of a similiar nature for more precise shooting. This new setup would be mainly for target shooting of various types: plinking and serious, targets unknown size and distance... Essentialy, I would like something with enough versatility to not limit its use to one particular setting, whether it be 3 gun or something of another nature. However I dont think there will be any shooting past 400 yards. I would like the extra mag for more precision work while still mainting decent speed of target aqusition.

Some of the optics i've been considering are: Leupold vx6 (1-6 and 2-), Vortex viper pst 1-4, swfa (1-4 and hd 1-6) amongst a few others.. I'm looking in the 5-1k$ range

**One of the things i noticed is that many manufacturers are making scopes that are not true 1x..? By not advertised correctly and/or in attempt to increase the upper mag range where you see 1.1 and 1.5x. This has thrown me for a bit of a loop as i was first intent that only a true 1x for the bottom would suffice. However, now i'm considering possibly moving to a 2x like leup. that has a much higher upper range like 12x.

Herein lies my dilema, where I hope that some of you can chime in. What are some of the problems when not going to true 1x? Such as errors with parallax, eye relief etc...? I noticed in a Hide video review of a leupold cqb8x that an adjustment was made off of 1x to 1.1 to correct parralax, how can that be possible?

Please flood with as much info and personal experience as you can, I have been researching for what seems forever on both individual products and optic discussions,and don't have the opportunity to look at most of these first hand, only through online reviews with pics.

Thanks guys,
Bob

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

^^
additionally, i have also been looking at both the bushnell 6500 1.25-8 and the 2.5-16. I have slight hesitance though in respect of the size of the objective lense of the 2.5 as it may be a bit excessive on a 16". Also if anyone has any personal experiences positive or negative with any of these models I would be interested in hearing any of your feedback.

 

[Ring]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

1*4 or 1*6 cant go wrong with either.. i have the PST, LOVE IT!... get a nice QD mount for it...

on the PST, i sugest the capped turret.... the uncapped are nice on rifles that u need to adjust all the time, but not for a 1x4.. just use hold overs..

ive seen gusy "spin" the turrets pulling the gun out of a bag, then miss targets till they figure out what they did..

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

Ring,
Thanks for the input. Youre right, i agree on the capped turrets idea especially for this type of optic. Im glad to hear another person happy with the pst line; i have also heard that vortex has excellent CS if there is ever a problem. Couple questions if you could spare me a few minutes of your time... Do you have any specific features you are especially pleased with or felt that came slightly short? Ie. eye box and relief, same poi as poa throughout the mag range, the reticles usefullness at 1x... Nothing specific was just curious if anything stood out to you.
Thanks again

 

[W54/XM-388]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

Here is a couple ones that I'd recommend

IOR 1-10
IOR 1-10 scope on sale with pictures

Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6x24 (SECOND Focal plane)

Bushnell Tactical 1-6x24

 

[JohnnyC]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

Trijicon Accupoint 1-4. Daylight visible, clear glass, fast up close. No holdover capability like the other reticles, but being a CQB optic not super necessary.

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

I think I'd debate donating one of my organs for that IOR 1-10... Just incredible, 10x mag range and DFP!? Never really thought I had a drooling problem but just the pure engineering behind that is something to marvel at.

I really like that bushnell as well and it is closer to my price range. I am curious how different the elite tactical models are from the 6500 series. I know the other is not a true 1x but are they really entirely different animals (glass, reticle etc...)? I haven't seen any of them in person.

Thanks for your help

 

[Kodiak61]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

http://www.horusvision.com/blackbird2.php

Hair above your price range (retail) however I think they sold for closer to 1k (could be wrong about that).

There are several used Elcan Specter's 1-4x that run around for the 1k price. Saw one in the classifieds the other day for $800 I believe.

I run the larger version on my POF .308 and I'm very happy with it.

Just something else to consider.

 

[PreferredUser]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

To me CQB means you are running both eyes open clearing rooms and need a dot or similar for rapid target acquisition and both eyes open for situational awareness.

You can do that with a true 1X and even the 1.1X like a Short Dot, however as your magnification increases it becomes increasingly more difficult to see the dot without getting into a good cheek weld and looking through the tube.

Do you really need CQB abilities?

 

[cramey74]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

I personally run a USO 1-4 FFP on my 5.56 along with a Docter mini-dot on a 45* mount...But if I were buying something today and I have owned many low power optics for your needs I would take a serious look at a Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6 it seems to be a very solid unit..

 

[ViperACR]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

We selll the Elcan DR 1x4x that Kodiak61 was speaking of and that is what I concider to be the ultimate carbine optic. These optics are about $2k new so if you could find one for the price Kodiak is talking of that is a steel you wouldn't be sorry. The new Steiner 1-4x are also very nice but they are also priced around $1800. We have sold several of the IOR Pit Bull optics and they are great also much closer to your price range you want to spend. I have a like new Meopta 1-4x K Dot we took in trade at our shop and it looks like a great optic as well with very nice glass and hold over chevrons. If you check them out you will see they have a strong following. I haven't used one yet but they look impressive. If you have any interest in the K Dot I would let it go for $900 and if I remember right it has a Larue mount on it.

 

[cramey74]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paul@Trigger Time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We selll the Elcan DR 1x4x that Kodiak61 was speaking of and that is what I concider to be the ultimate carbine optic. These optics are about $2k new so if you could find one for the price Kodiak is talking of that is a steel you wouldn't be sorry. The new Steiner 1-4x are also very nice but they are also priced around $1800. We have sold several of the IOR Pit Bull optics and they are great also much closer to your price range you want to spend. I have a like new Meopta 1-4x K Dot we took in trade at our shop and it looks like a great optic as well with very nice glass and hold over chevrons. If you check them out you will see they have a strong following. I haven't used one yet but they look impressive. If you have any interest in the K Dot I would let it go for $900 and if I remember right it has a Larue mount on it. </div></div>


This would also be a very good deal the Meopta is a very nice piece and that is a great price w/mount...

 

[Kodiak61]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

^^^^^^

Lots of good deals mentioned in that post.

I paid $2500 and change for 1.5-6x 7.62 Elcan.

And as of right now there is one on the hide for sale for $2k that is like new.

The $800 1-4x Elcan I saw for sale was on AR15.com and lasted about 3 hours. Usually see them in the $1k-1200 used price range.

 

[ViperACR]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

The 1.5x6x Elcans are around $500 more than the 1x4x models so you got a fair deal on yours. They are the best of all worlds and come in 7.62 and .556 so if you get a used one make sure what reticle it has. We include the bikini covers with ours which are an extra $$ option.

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

kodiak6, cramey74, paul@triggertime...
Guys thank you for for all the additional advice, i will take a look at all of your suggestions. Are there any features or qualities in particular that you feel are noteworthy or (as I have asked others before...) compare or exceed that of another scope you've used. Ie. "I believe that x's eye box forgiveness was comparable to... Or x's glass is slightly clearer than the vortex PST with almost the resolution of Zeis's Conquest line etc...
I'm really trying to flood myself with as much information as possible, as unfortunately its most likely that I will end up making a purchase without actually ever looking through it.

-Preferred User, sorry if my post was a bit vague... I already own a CQB style optic for this particular rifle in form of holosight with flip magnifier... As far as speed is concerned I agree that route is hard to beat. However what I'm looking for now is something that offers a bit more in terms of magnification and precision; something with a reticle or point of aim that is smaller than 1 moa... for more versatility. Ie shooting for groups while still maintaining some of the speed and target aquisition capability of my other set-up. Essentially something that posesses many of the qualities of both a target riflescope and a holosight/red dot while limiting as many of the drawbacks that they create: a good balance in between the two

Guys thanks again for all your input,
Please feel free to flood any other suggestions or personal experiences

 

[billybronco]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

Aimpoint PRO.

Unbeatable battery life, durability, run w/ both eyes open, lightweight, great price point and well, eye relief?

Can't be beaten....

Go to Larue Tactical and pick up one of their packages.

 

[GLB]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

You can also look at a Aimpoint T1 with a magnifier behind it. I would match it with the Larue mounts

 

[jonthomps]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

I've always ran EOTech's. With the 3x magnifier they are easily good out to 200-300m on standard torso sized steel. That being said, the reticle must be centered in the shooter's FOV every time while using the magnifier (like a regular scope).

 

[Texar2]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

swfa with a larue mount and buis for sure. I don't find it to be too slow for cqb as I don't use the sights much anyway at close range. I practice reflex shooting for the close stuff. For me its faster and just as accurate to look over the optic for close range work and helps maintain heads up awareness.

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

SWFA looks really good. I really like their reticle... which model are you currently running? The 1-4 illuminated? I was on the fence for a while about signing on with the group buy to get their upcoming 1-6hd which looks great. Anything you would compare your SWFA with in terms of quality or clarity? I'm just thinking I might like a little more than 4x on the top end. And it might sound crazy but I might even be willing to sacrifice the true 1x to do so

 

[az-bred]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

I have a leupold mark 4 cq/t 1-3x14mm that is awesome for rapid target acquisition, the only problem is the weight.It's decent for the price $600-700. Check out the bottom link to the Leupold HAMR it looks pretty sweet

Leupold mark 4 cq/t
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/mark-4-cqt-riflescopes/

Leupold HAMR
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/mark-4-hamr-riflescopes/

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

Thanks for the links man. Ah, i have actually seen the mark 4 cq/t 1-3... Definetely built like a friggin tank. I have to be honest though the mag range left me feeling a bit to be desired, especially from a beast like that. Maybe thats how they were ale to keep that model more affordable, comparatively speaking.

I haven't seen or known anyone who has leup's HAMR... It looks really sweet. Any thoughts on it?

I think again though that I'm becoming a bit mag greedy... Or at least having a large range. I like the idea of a sight that can be used up close but has the capability to also shine in small target use without having to lob on a large hunk of aluminum that takes up half the rifle.

I'm really liking the idea of:
Leupold vx6 1-6 and 2-12
Bushnell 6500 1-6.5 and 2-16
IOR 1-10
Meopta 1-4
Pst 1-4
SWFA 1-4 and 1-6hd

* please someone hit me with a hammer to straighten out this 1-4/6 or 2-12/16 crap**
As I've mentioned before this will be an addition to having a holosight/mag combo for swap out use. How much is there to be gained from a true 1x vari scope over a holosight with mag?!? If its that drastic I may reserve the combo for a different rifle.
I'm beginning to feel that the midrange/low profile idea might be a more valuable with more drastic differences than the low mag. Maybe a heavier investment in the mid range and later pick up a decent more modestly priced 1-?
*Please advise before the rest of my hair falls out torn between the two ideas

 

[CSTactical]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

CQB scopes:
ELCAN Specter DR 1/4x is one of my favorites. I love how fast the throw-lever works going from 1x to 4x.
ELCAN Specter DR 1.5/6x is just as good as the 1/4x
Swarovski 1-6x BRHi is one of the most love scopes by 3-Gunner and you can see why when you use it.
Bushnell 1-6.5x offer a great magnification range we have only gotten great feedback, I hope to test one out soon.
Leupold CQBSS 1.1-8x offers more than most give you are great close-range power and mid-range power.
MeOpta ZD 1-4x for the price offers a lot
Vortex PST 1-4x is another great scope for the price
Vortex HD 1-4x are very solid scopes
Vortex is coming out with the Razor HD 1-6x this scopes looks very promising.
Kahels just came out with 1-6x outstanding glass, daytime bright dot, and great engineering. I will be posting more about this Kahles 1-6x soon.

Here are a few videos we did. Hope this helps.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/a-38IX2frOg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QQN-1xsj9j8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>





Mike @ CST

 

[priler]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome


the truth is that only you can answer the question. some people have a problem with 1.5 or 2 at the low end for "cqb" both eyes open shooting and some don't. i suggest you get a hold of one if you can. most people at ranges are really friendly. once you know for sure,it will make the choice easier for you.

parallax is not going to be the/a problem with a 1-4/5/6/7/8 type scope. eye relief however,is a matter of what rifle and mounting system your using,so it should always atleast be looked at to make sure it's not a problem for you.

by the way,some scopes beginning with 1.1x are actually true 1x or as close as they can get it. it has to do with how the europeans measure it. most "american" scopes that say 1x are also trying to get it as close as they can. when it's 1.25x,that's different!

some scopes beginning at 1x are actually .97x/.98x(turn it up just a little and it's more like true 1x). some have a tiny bit of magnification at 5,10,12 feet and then from there on are true 1x(these are also true 1x).

of course,the advantage(from a design POV) of beginning with a higher low end(per erector/mag factor) is that it pays dividens at the higher magnification out of proportion(example: 1-5,2-10). you went up 1 on the low but up 5 on the top. however,if you really want/need 1x at the lower end,then higher than 1x is really no substitute. your call.

good luck.

 

[Ianski]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

The IOR is a true 1x-10x if that is something that is important to you.

 

[BigJimFish]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

I've written and collected a bunch of reviews on the 1-x class of optics here is a link to that thread. It also explains the whole 1x vs 1.1x thing in the first post I think.

 

[BobD]

Re: CQB Optic advice - all input welcome

Mike,Priler, Lanski, BigJimFish,

Guys thanks for all the info, links and reviews, very articulate. That cleared up alot. I think I've suffiently absorbed much of the science I was looking for.

Now I must decide which of all these scopes have the features that are necessary for my own needs.

Thanks again, and anyone else please feel free to add more of your personal experiences whether it be positive or negative with any of the glass thats been discussed!