CQC 25/50/75/100yard, 20round only, iron / red-dot / 6xMAX only, king of the hill SHOOTOUT

elfster1234 · Jul 15, 2013

Other links to get the most out of your AR:
http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ic-info-ar-101-7-62-lmt-mws-example-pics.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...00yard-semi-auto-6group-30round-shootout.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0yard-semi-auto-6groups-30round-shootout.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...t-semi-auto-precision-shooters-reloaders.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...learning-experiences-live-learn-pictures.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...08476-bye-bye-bi-pod-hello-mega-benchbag.html

I produced this "Close Quarters Competition 25/50/75/100yards, 20round only, king of the hill SHOOTOUT" thread to get myself & others in the sniper's hide community more involved with iron sights,,,, back up iron sights / offset iron sights,,,, red-dots / eotechs no magnification,,,, red-dots / eotechs with magnification,,,, and 1-4power / 1-6power scopes SEMI-AUTO RIGS..... AR or AK-47, just needs to be semi-auto.... I understand that MOST people DO NOT have a 3-gun set up in their community or in their backyard,,,, BUT most people do have a 100yards max range & are allowed to shoot at targets in multiple shooting positions as long as their shots are in a safe / non-rapid-fire manner. This shootout is geared more around the potential of the shooter, NOT the potential of the rifle (but it does help to have a kick ass rifle)

.... Regardless of your entry outcome, please post your results & pictures. There will be no "best group" and no "best average" as in the other shootout threads. Only your best average of all 4total targets = SCORE CARD TOTAL!! The smaller the score card total = the better obviously..... This is where you put your bench rest bug hole shooting skills on the back burner, and get your close quarter skills hot & ready... There can only be one KING OF THE HILL. Your job is to knock the big man off that hill. With that said, let the games begin.

YOUR ENTRY WILL NOT COUNT UNLESS YOU FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE ENTRY LISTED WITHIN THIS ORIGINAL POST!!

Close quarters 25/50/75/100yard, 20round only, irons / B.U.I.S / red-dot / eotech / 1-4scope / 1-6scope / only, SHOOTOUT!

Good news everyone. Starting today 12/1/13. Thanks to marky @ tactical-tshirts ( http://tacticaltshirts.com/ ) the grand prize winner will win a design of short-sleeve Tshirt they want, color, size, front or back print, and will ship to YOU directly. The winner will need to PM me their name, shipping address, email, and what t-shirt options they want as listed above & I will forward this info to TacticaltshirtsREP once I announce a winner so he can send you the tshirt in the mail. Thank you once again to marky @ tactical-tshirts! Winner = grand prize winner as listed in the OP,,,,, OR once the top ten fills up & 5 people are listed in the previous leader boards. This is all for fun & is subject to change FYI! Keep it honest & keep it fun & this will hopefully continue into the future!

CLOSE QUARTERS COMPETITION 25/50/75/100yard ((TRUE1X NO MAGNIFICATION IRONS / B.U.I.S / RED-DOTS / EOTECH)) ((no magnification grand prize awarded @ 1.9 or less score card total)):
*** #1 place: ELFSTER1234, RRA ELITE OPERATOR2 16"CM 5.56, 1X AIMPOINT PRO RED-DOT, (SCORE CARD TOTAL = 3.8905), shot on (07/20/13), post on page1***
#2 place: ELFSTER1234, LMT MWS 20"CL 7.62, (SCORE CARD TOTAL = 4.296), 1X RTS OFFSET IRONS, shot on (07/20/13), post on page1
#3 place: your name here!!!
#4 place: your name here!!!
#5 place: your name here!!!
#6 place: your name here!!!
#7 place: your name here!!!
#8 place: your name here!!!
#9 place: your name here!!!
#10 place: your name here!!!

CLOSE QUARTERS COMPETITION 25/50/75/100yard ((MAGNIFIED RED-DOTS & EOTECHS / VARIABLE POWER SCOPES UP TO 6X ONLY)) ((magnified grand prize awarded @ 1.25 or less score card total)):
*** #1 place: ROPEGUN, WILSON COMBAT 16'' 5.56, 1.5-5 LEUPOLD MARK, (SCORE CARD TOTAL = 1.664), shot on (08/06/13), post on page1***
#2 place: ELFSTER1234, DPMS 3G1 18"SS 5.56, 1-4 VORTEX VIPER PST SCOPE, (SCORE CARD TOTAL = 2.591), shot on (09/08/13), post on page2
#3 place: JRM83, SPIKES LOWER / NOVESKE UPPER 18'' 5.56, 1-4 VORTEX VIPER PST SCOPE, (SCORE CARD TOTAL = 3.206), shot on (08/07/13), post on page1
#4 place: BORNHUNTER04, CUSTOM AR WILSON 18"SS SPR 5.56, 1-4 VORTEX VIPER PST SCOPE, (SCORE CARD TOTAL = 3.726), shot on (07/21/13), post on page1
#5 place: your name here!!!
#6 place: your name here!!!
#7 place: your name here!!!
#8 place: your name here!!!
#9 place: your name here!!!
#10 place: your name here!!!

CLOSE QUARTERS COMPETITION 25/50/75/100yard ((TRUE1X NO MAGNIFICATION IRONS / B.U.I.S. / RED-DOTS / EOTECH)) past leaders for average:
- will add names / rifles as they get bumped from top ten

CLOSE QUARTERS COMPETITION 25/50/75/100yard ((MAGNIFIED RED-DOTS & EOTECHS / VARIABLE POWER SCOPES UP TO 6X ONLY)) past leaders for average:
- will add names / rifles as they get bumped from top ten

Close quarters 25/50/75/100yard, 20round only, irons / red-dot / 6xMAX only, SHOOTOUT OVERVIEW!

1.) Everyone has the ability to obtain 8-1/2" x 11" paper. This size paper also just happens to be close to a vitals size steel plate target. Your paper size target can ONLY be this size. No more, and NO less. You will be INSTANTLY DISQUALIFIED if your paper size target is any other size as shown in the example entry below. Please position your target before you take your shots with the 8-1/2" going left to right, and 11" going up and down. The type of target you use is totally up to you, BUT it must be on 8-1/2" x 11" paper AND must be positioned correctly as previously stated.

2.) YOU ONLY GET 20ROUNDS, and ONLY 20SHOTS! 5shots standing un-supported @ 25yards,,,, 5shots kneeling @ 50yards,,,, 5shots sitting (you pick = open leg / cross leg "indian style" / cross ankle) @ 75yards,,,, and 5shots supported (prone / bench / whatever) @ 100yards.... ALL must be shot in a row starting at 25yards, then 50yards, then 75yards, and ending up with 100yards. All shot within 1hour of time (should be enough for most local ranges, which gives you 15min per target). Your magazine must be full with 5shots per group / target. NO SINGLE FEEDING allowed!! NO shutting off gas blocks! If you set up all targets at once, then feel free to load up your magazine with all 20shots, but just make sure you DO NOT take anymore than 5shots per group / target. Each group / target can ONLY have 5 bullet holes. Any more or less than 5 bullet holes per target is instant disqualification, so you might be better off only loading 5per group / target so you don't forget. Please, just be honest.

3.) You will be INSTANTLY DISQUALIFIED if any 1bullet misses ANY of your 4 total 8-1/2" x 11" paper targets at any yardage.... SO DON'T MISS!! Might be a smart move to zero your sights before you start! The yardage you zero your sights is totally up to you so think this out!!! Once you start your shots you can not stop to re-zero at other yardages!! If you are new to this, then I would highly suggest some dry-fire practice (triple check rifle is empty) at each yardage before you start so you are not wasting ammo. Make each bullet count! Please, just be honest! If you miss one bullet, then you need to start all over from square one & all previously shots /targets will not count & must be trashed... You will need to start over, end of topic.... BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF and OTHERS! This is a good drill to push yourself, so why cheat yourself... No one has given me a reason to doubt them in these shootouts threads so far,,,, so please don't give me a reason.

4.) first 5shots @ 25yards STANDING UN-SUPPORTED (((see videos below for how to do this if you're not sure))) !! please be honest about this yardage! Only sling support is allowed!

5.) second 5shots @ 50yards KNEELING (((see videos below for how to do this if you're not sure))) !! please be honest about this yardage! Only sling support is allowed! YOUR A$$ CAN NOT TOUCH THE GROUND DURING THESE SHOTS!!!

6.) third 5shots @ 75yards SITTING (((see videos below for how to do this if you're not sure)))... You get to pick the SITTING style that works best for you = open leg / cross leg "indian style" / cross ankle !! please be honest about this yardage! Only sling support is allowed!

7.) fourth 5shots @ 100yards CAN BE SUPPORTED!! please be honest about this yardage! Use any object to support yourself such as simply going prone, bench, tree, car, truck, blah blah blah = I don't care.. You can use a grip-pod, front mono-pod, OR bipod during the 100yard supported section............ BUT you can NOT use any sandbags / vises / bench-rests... NOTHING can be used on the rear butt-stock of the rifle. Only your shoulder can support the butt-stock of the rifle!! If you feel like being a total bad ass, then continue to shoot with any previous shooting position.

MAKE NOTE that no rifle equipment / mods can be added or deducted to your rifle set up during the entire test! The rifle set up you start with is what you must finish with. Yes, you might have an advantage using a bipod or grip pod on the supported 100yard shots, but the bipod must stay on during the entire test from the 25yard line start. Same goes for slings.

If you are using a variable power optic that is 6x or less, then you can change the optic power setting during anytime of the test.

8.) There will be a KING OF THE HILL for just 1x non-magnified iron sights, BUIS, and red-dots / eotechs with NO magnification.

9.) There will be a KING OF THE HILL for magnified red-dots / eotechs & variable power scopes up to 6x MAX!!

10.) I will call you out if your entry looks fishy & I think you're cheating.... so please... don't do it.

11.) Your entry will NOT COUNT unless you have a picture of your rifle to prove if you're 1x OR magnified.

12.) Your entry will NOT COUNT if you're using thumbnail pictures. Make sure you're entry shows NON-THUMBNAIL pictures. This just makes it easier for everyone to view your entry!

13.) Get the group size average of your 5shot groups at 25yards, 50yards, 75yards, and 100yards. Add up all 4 group size averages and then divide by 4... this is your entry score card! obviously, the smaller the number the better. IF ANY of your bullets miss the 8-1/2" x 11" paper on any section of this shootout, then you're disqualified & will need to start over. PLEASE BE HONEST TO YOUR FELLOW MEMBER & YOURSELF!!!

14.) The lower the score card total, the better. In the event of a tie value between multiple people, the first person to post wins.

16.) You can be on the board more than once IF AND ONLY IF you use two different rifles.

17.) This is a video showing the standing un-supported for the 25yard shots to give you an idea. The form you use is obviously up to you. TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF YOUR SLING SUPPORT OFF YOUR BODY during these shots! Using your sling during these shots is a serious art-form so take advantage of it if you want.. The guy in this video obviously does NOT f#ck around when it comes to this kind of stuff! Talk about MR. serious! LOL!:
[HD] AR15 Service Rifle Standing Practice 2009-05-10 - YouTube

18.) This video will give you some ideas for the 50yard kneeling (A$$ can NOT touch ground),,,,, 75yards sitting ( open leg / cross leg "indian style" / cross ankle ), and 100yard supported shots if you do not take full advantage of a bipod on a bench / prone position. Just remember, the only thing that can support the butt-stock of the rifle is your shoulder!!:
Shooting Positions in the Field - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

19.) The 100yard target can be shot supported by prone, bench, or heck even leaning against a tree / car / truck / fence = whatever!!.... You just can NOT use any sand-bags, vises, or bench-rests. Only items allowed are FRONT mono-pods, bipods, or grip-pods for the 100yard target IF you want to use these options. If you would like to use these items then they must be on the rifle from the start of the test at the 25yard line. No rifle modifications can be done during the entire test from start to finish. The only thing that can support the rear of the rifle / butt-stock area is your shoulder only!

20.) Any scope that has the ability to go over 6x power can not be used, period.... You are allowed to use back up iron sights if you take off your 6xplus high power scope and you will simply be considered non-magnified. Those that have a 6xplus power scope with offset irons /red-dot sights are allowed to keep the 6xplus power scope on during the test BUT you are NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE 6xplus scope at all during any part of this test and CAN ONLY use the offset 1x sights and will be considered non-magnified. Simply put, you can not use any scope that has the ability to go over 6xpower.

21.) DURING THE 100YARD SECTION of this thread..... NO rear sandbags, NO rear mono-pods, down right nothing can be used on the rear end / butt-stock of the rifle during the 100yard section of this thread. Only a bipod or monopod on the front is allowed. If you have a bipod or grip-pod on the front, then you should take advantage of it! You can simply go prone or lean against a tree / car / truck / fence / whatever if you like. The objective is to produce CQC / hunting scenario shots during this thread from 25yard start to 100yard finish. Also, if you're using a 1-4 or 1-6 variable power scope that can go down to 1x,,,,, OR a red-dot / eotech with a magnifier,,,,, then you will still be considered MAGNIFIED so you better crank up that magnification and take advantage of that magnification.

22.) any semi-auto is allowed.... AR or AK-47, bring it on. NO BOLT ACTIONS!

23.) FINALLY, please either zero out your calipers on the bullet used and measure outside to outside of bullet hole,,,, OR measure outside to outside of bullet hole and deduct the bullet diameter (show your math on the target if you do this!)... Try to use calipers only but you might need to use a ruler / tape measure if the group size is too big.

***************************************************************************

THIS IS THE EXAMPLE ENTRY BELOW!! IF YOUR ENTRY DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THIS, THEN IT WILL NOT COUNT AND YOU WILL BE ASK TO RE-DO YOUR ENTRY (STARTS TODAY 07/15/13)!!! 

Shot with my Rock River Arms tactical operator2 with aimpoint pro red-dot NON-MAGNIFIED!
Average groups size of all 4targets = 3.867 score card total
Rifle used = Rock River Arms tactical operator2
Barrel Length / Type = 16" heavy chrom-moly
Optics = aimpoint pro red-dot
Mount = supplied aimpoint pro package mount

Shot with reloads
2fired lake city 5.56 brass
cci 400 primer
23.6 varget
60gr v-max hornday bullet
2.25" coal

25yards standing @ 1.760" + 50yards kneeling @ 4.188" + 75yards sitting @ 5.584" + 100yards prone / bench @ 3.936" = 15.468 / 4groups = 3.867 score card total

25yard @ standing un-supported:

50yard @ kneeling:

75yard @ sitting (open leg / cross leg "indian style" / cross ankle ):

100yard @ prone / bench

My rifle, rock river arms 5.56 tactical operator2:

***************************************************************************

ONLY BIPODS, MONOPODS, GRIP-PODS ALLOWED ON THE FRONT ONLY DURING THE 100YARD SHOTS!! ONLY THING ALLOWED TO THE SUPPORT THE REAR BUTT-STOCK IS YOUR SHOULDER! 

THE FOLLOWING SAND-BAGS FRONT / REAR, VISES, ADJUSTABLE FRONT RESTS, AND SLEDS ARE NOT ALLOWED WHAT SO EVER:

Helpful videos:

some more vids.... this guy is mr serious to the tenth power... notice the dry-fire shots he takes before he shoots.

If you think you have any helpful videos, then feel free to post them!

sitting cross ankle... I might try this on my next try
High Power Rifle, Sitting Practice - Snapping In - YouTube
[HD] Eliseo R5 Rifle (Remington 700) Rapid Sitting String (Test/Practice) - 2009-03-28c - YouTube

ahhh yeah, they do this shit standing at 200yards on the 10x ring
Skeletal (Bone) Support in Rifle Shooting and Photography - YouTube

kneeling suggestions
USA Shooting - 3-Position - The Kneeling Position - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube
M16 Qualification Kneeling Position - YouTube
SOCOM 16 Rifle Shooting from Kneeling - YouTube
MSG Torres Rapid Fire Kneeling - YouTube

Finally, some prone ideas (figure most of you don't need help with this one):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c-03SuI4Co

Shooting Fundamentals:
Shooting Fundamentals - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

Understanding Minute of Angle (MOA):
Understanding Minute of Angle (MOA) - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

Understanding Mils (Milliradians):
Understanding Mils (Milliradians) - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

Rifle sight in process:
Rifle Sight-in Process - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

Shooting Positions in the field:
Shooting Positions in the Field - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

Red dot / 1x, what yard zero should you use?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=60zbwMYJiLI

heydogman · Jul 15, 2013

So on the 100 yard phase what rear support is allowed,if any?Fist,ball or rag in hand?Might have to give the 6.8 a go at it.

elfster1234 · Jul 15, 2013

None is allowed on the rear, and this will be added to the OP rules. No sandbags what so ever. You can use a bipod or grip-pod on the front, but nothing on the back. What would most likely be used during CQC.

Thanks!

heydogman said:
So on the 100 yard phase what rear support is allowed,if any?Fist,ball or rag in hand?Might have to give the 6.8 a go at it.

elfster1234 · Jul 15, 2013

Not everyone has a 3gun course, but most do have a 100yard local range that allow standing un-supported shots. Also, it is really easy to obtain 8-1/2" x 11" printer paper (damn near everyone has this type of paper in their house). This has been added to the OP rules. Thanks for your input.

20.) DURING THE 100YARD SECTION of this thread..... NO rear sandbags, NO rear mono-pods, down right nothing can be used on the rear end / butt-stock of the rifle during the 100yard section of this thread. Only a bipod or monopod on the front is allowed. If you have a bipod or grip-pod on the front, then you should take advantage of it! You can simply go prone or lean against a tree / car / truck if you like. The objective is to produce CQC scenario shots during this thread from 25yard start to 100yard finish. Also, if you're using a 1-4 or 1-6 variable power scope that can go down to 1x,,,,, OR a red-dot / eotech with a magnifier,,,,, then you will still be considered MAGNIFIED so you better crank up that magnification and take advantage of that magnification.

heydogman said:
So on the 100 yard phase what rear support is allowed,if any?Fist,ball or rag in hand?Might have to give the 6.8 a go at it.

elfster1234 · Jul 15, 2013

oh yeah,,, this rule also

21.) any semi-auto is allowed.... AR or AK-47, bring it on. NO BOLT ACTIONS!

heydogman said:
So on the 100 yard phase what rear support is allowed,if any?Fist,ball or rag in hand?Might have to give the 6.8 a go at it.

Twitchy · Jul 15, 2013

Do you consider the use of a sling supported or unsupported?

elfster1234 · Jul 15, 2013

you can use a sling during any part of this thread as long as it used with your body only... using a sling to improve your shots is an art-form so take advantage of it!!

thanks big time, forgot about that and will put it in the OP rules. Thanks bro!

Twitchy said:
Do you consider the use of a sling supported or unsupported?

Twitchy · Jul 16, 2013

No problem. I don't usually use a sling the "proper" way with my gas guns (single point) since most of what I use them for is short distance engagements. But I take full advantage of them with my bolt guns for long shots. It is an art form that makes me shoot so much better than without one.

I'm going to sling up my other AR for this. Thinking of irons only...

elfster1234 · Jul 16, 2013

FYI,

2.) YOU ONLY GET 20ROUNDS, and ONLY 20SHOTS! 5shots standing un-supported @ 25yards, 5shots standing un-supported @ 50yards, 5shots standing un-supported @ 75yards, and 5shots supported (prone / bench / whatever) @ 100yards. ALL must be shot in a row starting at 25yards, then 50yards, then 75yards, and ending up with 100yards. All shot within 1hour of time (should be enough for most local ranges, which gives you 15min per target). Your magazine must be full with 5shots per group / target. NO SINGLE FEEDING allowed!! NO shutting off gas blocks! If you set up all targets at once, then feel free to load up your magazine with all 20shots, but just make sure you DO NOT take anymore than 5shots per group / target. Each group / target can ONLY have 5 bullet holes. Any more or less than 5 bullet holes per target is instant disqualification, so you might be better off only loading 5per group / target so you don't forget. Please, just be honest.

Twitchy said:
Do you consider the use of a sling supported or unsupported?

ptrlcop · Jul 16, 2013

Elf, it is your show, however I would like to see different positions required at 50/75. If you are looking at testing what I think you are I think it is a mistake to ignore kneeling.

bornhunter04 · Jul 16, 2013

elfster1234 said:
you can use a sling during any part of this thread as long as it used with your body only... using a sling to improve your shots is an art-form so take advantage of it!!

thanks big time, forgot about that and will put it in the OP rules. Thanks bro!

Good thing a took that appleseed class a few weeks ago and used my AR! Looking forward to this. This I think I can do! Have to load ammo tonight.

elfster1234 · Jul 16, 2013

im up for any suggestions... im a pretty reasonable dude... what did you have in mind? maybe kneeling @ 75?

ptrlcop said:
Elf, it is your show, however I would like to see different positions required at 50/75. If you are looking at testing what I think you are I think it is a mistake to ignore kneeling.

elfster1234 · Jul 16, 2013

actually, i'm just going to make the change... I like your idea and I'm sure others will also (and i'm sure most ranges will be cool with you making these different positional shots as they are rather common in the world of shooting)......

will make the change to the OP soon. will be

25yards standing un-supported (can use sling support)

50yards kneeling (can use sling support)

75yards sitting, can be open leg, cross leg "indian style", OR cross ankle (you pick).. which ever works best for you (can use sling support)

100yards prone, bench, or any other support like leaning against tree / fence supported. Can use bipod on front with NO rear support. Only support on back butt-stock is shoulder only.

ptrlcop said:
Elf, it is your show, however I would like to see different positions required at 50/75. If you are looking at testing what I think you are I think it is a mistake to ignore kneeling.

elfster1234 · Jul 16, 2013

FYI EVERYONE!!! MAKE NOTE OF THREAD RULE CHANGES! thank you ptrlcop for your input!

actually, i'm just going to make the change... I like your idea and I'm sure others will also (and i'm sure most ranges will be cool with you making these different positional shots as they are rather common in the world of shooting)......

will make the change to the OP soon. will be

25yards standing un-supported (can use sling support)

50yards kneeling (can use sling support)

75yards sitting, can be open leg, cross leg "indian style", OR cross ankle (you pick).. which ever works best for you (can use sling support)

100yards prone, bench, or any other support like leaning against tree / fence supported. Can use bipod on front with NO rear support. Only support on back butt-stock is shoulder only.

ptrlcop said:
Elf, it is your show, however I would like to see different positions required at 50/75. If you are looking at testing what I think you are I think it is a mistake to ignore kneeling.

elfster1234 · Jul 16, 2013

OK, OP rules should be fully tweaked... let me know if you see any mistakes or any other suggestions, but I think we should be GTG!

ptrlcop said:
Elf, it is your show, however I would like to see different positions required at 50/75. If you are looking at testing what I think you are I think it is a mistake to ignore kneeling.

elfster1234 · Jul 17, 2013

My goal this coming sunday, maybe saturday is to run all 3 of the following rifles on this test.... Cant do my rock river varmint as it is high power scope only with no buis or offset.

1. Rock river arms tactical operator2 5.56 with aimpoint pro unmagnified

2. Dpms 3G1 5.56 with vortex pst viper 1-4 with capped turrets magnified

3. LMT MWS 7.62 with offset RTS back up irons unmagnified

elfster1234 · Jul 17, 2013

FYI everyone that would like to participate. This has been added and something you will need to put some thought into before you start... Will it be worth it OR not worth it?

MAKE NOTE that no rifle equipment / mods can be added or deducted to your rifle set up during the entire test! The rifle set up you start with is what you must finish with. Yes, you might have an advantage using a bipod or grip pod on the supported 100yard shots, but the bipod must stay on during the entire test from the 25yard line start. Same goes for slings.

ptrlcop · Jul 17, 2013

I think the final format will make for a very good test. I have NO free time on my immediate calendar, but when I do I will shoot this both slick and kitted up in my SWAT armor with my carbine. Maybe also with aimpoint and irons.

elfster1234 · Jul 17, 2013

that would be awesome!

ptrlcop said:
I think the final format will make for a very good test. I have NO free time on my immediate calendar, but when I do I will shoot this both slick and kitted up in my SWAT armor with my carbine. Maybe also with aimpoint and irons.

wielywilly-g · Jul 18, 2013

Looks like fun, but the only semi auto guns I have with iron sights or red dots are 9mm, 45, and 22 pistols. Darn!
How about if I turned my S&B scope down to 5X?

You should start one of these for the 45 sidearm and go 7yd, 15yd, 25yd, and 50yd.

Temp9 · Jul 19, 2013

Just for clarification, a 5-15x44 scope is allowed if it is set at 6x or lower? If not, I'll have to see if I can procure a 1-4x from a friend. Or an extra set of irons. Or a red dot. Or I could use my .22lr....

Either way, looking forward to the 75 yard sitting and 100 yard prone sections. I've been practicing my loop sling shooting. My offhand is gonna suck, though.

elfster1234 · Jul 19, 2013

Rule 20

You can noy use any scope that can go over 6x at all. The only time you can use a rifle that has a high power scope that can go over 6x is if you take the scope off and use only the back up iron sights. You can keep the 7xplus scope on during the test while using only your offset irons or red dot, but you still can not use the 7x plus high power scope and you will be considered non-magnified. In short any scope that can go over 6x can not be used at all. I should prob make it more clear in the rules. My bad.

Temp9 said:
Just for clarification, a 5-15x44 scope is allowed if it is set at 6x or lower? If not, I'll have to see if I can procure a 1-4x from a friend. Or an extra set of irons. Or a red dot. Or I could use my .22lr....

Either way, looking forward to the 75 yard sitting and 100 yard prone sections. I've been practicing my loop sling shooting. My offhand is gonna suck, though.

elfster1234 · Jul 19, 2013

I revised rule 20 so hopefully its a little more clear

20.) Any scope that has the ability to go over 6x power can not be used, period.... You are allowed to use back up iron sights if you take off your 6xplus high power scope and you will simply be considered non-magnified. Those that have a 6xplus power scope with offset irons /red-dot sights are allowed to keep the 6xplus power scope on during the test BUT you are NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE 6xplus scope at all during any part of this test and CAN ONLY use the offset 1x sights and will be considered non-magnified. Simply put, you can not use any scope that has the ability to go over 6xpower.

Temp9 said:
Just for clarification, a 5-15x44 scope is allowed if it is set at 6x or lower? If not, I'll have to see if I can procure a 1-4x from a friend. Or an extra set of irons. Or a red dot. Or I could use my .22lr....

Either way, looking forward to the 75 yard sitting and 100 yard prone sections. I've been practicing my loop sling shooting. My offhand is gonna suck, though.

elfster1234 · Jul 19, 2013

Im almost thinking you might be better off keeping the bipod off so you can keep the rifle weight down to a minimum during the 25, 50, and 75yard shots... Hmmmmm, still thinking about this one... Kinda puts a twist on the entire thing.. Keeping the bipod on for a possible bug hole group at 100yards to lower my over all score also has its advantages... Hmmmm. Still up in the air on this one. I think i can find something to support my rifle on the 100yard line so i can reduce my rifle weight. I know for a fact ill need to do it with my LMT as my back up irons are 45degree offset RTS irons so the bipod will be off my LMT during the test as i can not use the scope as in rule 20

rchman · Jul 19, 2013

I think Service match guys would say that the extra weight would be beneficial if holding the rifle correctly. Bone support.

Speaking of that, should shooting jackets be excluded from use?

elfster1234 · Jul 20, 2013

I guess, If I got to be the one kicking off this party

Let me get this out of the way, THIS SHIT WAS HARD! BIG TIME!! The sitting part sucks donkey balls big time, but it was a serious learning experience with 1x offset iron sights. OMG, not easy at all especially with a damn near 13lbs pig (and that was with my bipod off) shooting 45degree offset RTS sights with no support (I figured I would start without a sling for now & will try the next time with a sling)... The easiest part by far was the 100yard prone / bench. The hardest by far was the 75 sitting..... and the 25yard standing & 50yard kneeling was about the same in terms of difficultly I thought. I ended up wasting 15rounds of ammo on this test with my LMT as I ended up missing the target with ONE F#CKING bullet on the 75 sitting section and I ended up having to start all over trashing all previous targets (thank god I didn't need to do this with my other 2 rifles I also tested today)... I even had a couple close calls "close to paper's edge" on the 2nd attempt, but thank god they didn't go off the paper because I wouldn't of had enough bullets to do it again. It was the 75yard sitting that really got me (word of advice, practice the sitting part before you go!)... If you think the 100yard challenge makes you want to pull your hair out, wait till you try this test! LOL!! Nothing like wasting $7.50 in ammo, but it really was a good experience and it really wasn't wasted ammo with what I learned. Hopefully I will get better the next time I give this a shot. Live and learn... Live and learn.

Shot with my LMT MWS 7.62 with RTS offset iron sights NON-MAGNIFIED!
Average groups size of all 4targets = 4.296 score card total
Rifle used = LMT MWS 7.62
Barrel Length / Type = 20" chrome lined heavy
Optics = RTS offset iron sights

Shot with reloads
5F 7.62 lakecity brass
cci 200 primer
41.9 varget
168gr sierra matchking hpbt
ogive seating @ ~ 2.225"

25yards standing @ 1.732" + 50yards kneeling @ 4.754" + 75yards sitting @ 6.067" + 100yards prone / bench @ 4.631" = 17.184 / 4groups = 4.296 score card total

25yard @ standing un-supported (with no sling support):

50yard @ kneeling (with no sling support):

75yard @ sitting (cross leg "indian style" with no sling support):

100yard @ supported (off bench with no bipod):

My rifle, LMT MWS 7.62 with RTS offset iron sights:

elfster1234 · Jul 20, 2013

Shot with my Rock River Arms elite operator2 with aimpoint pro red-dot NON-MAGNIFIED!
Average groups size of all 4targets = 3.8905 score card total
Rifle used = Rock River Arms elite operator2
Barrel Length / Type = 16" heavy chrom-moly
Optics = aimpoint pro red-dot
Mount = supplied aimpoint pro package mount

Shot with reloads
4F mixed brass
cci 400 primer
25.5 varget
55gr fmj-bt w/can hornady
2.222" coal

25yards standing @ 2.251" + 50yards kneeling @ 4.730" + 75yards sitting @ 7.276" + 100yards prone / bench @ 1.305" = 15.562 / 4groups = 3.8905 score card total

25yard @ standing un-supported (no sling used):

50yard @ kneeling (no sling used):

75yard @ sitting (cross leg "indian style", no sling used):

100yard @ bench with grip-pod & co-witness rear sight only with red-dot 1x:

My rifle, Rock River Arms Elite Operator2 5.56:

elfster1234 · Jul 20, 2013

Shot with my DPMS 3G1 with 1-4 vortex viper pst w/capped turrets MAGNIFIED!
Average groups size of all 4targets = 2.978 score card total
Rifle used = DPMS 3G1
Barrel Length / Type = 18" SS
Optics = 1-4 vortex viper pst w/capped turrets
Mount = vortex 2"offset cantilever 1pc mount

Shot with reloads
4F mixed brass
cci 400 primer
25.5 varget
55gr fmj-bt w/can hornady
2.222" coal

25yards standing @ 2.265" + 50yards kneeling @ 2.766" + 75yards sitting @ 5.581" + 100yards prone / bench @ 1.30" = 11.912 / 4groups = 2.978 score card total

25yard @ standing un-supported (no sling used):

50yard @ kneeling (no sling used):

75yard @ sitting (cross leg "indian style", no sling used):

100yard @ bench (no bipod used on bench):

My rifle, DPMS 3G1 (stock picture shown with bipod, but no bipod used during test):

elfster1234 · Jul 21, 2013

Few things I learned during this test with my 3rifles.

1.) I tried my best to copy the form of this guy during the 25yard standing section, but with using my thumb as a hook (rather than using a sling) between the handguard / upper receiver. I think I'll try using a sling next time, but using my thumb as a hook actually worked rather well on the 25yard line even with my PIG of a LMT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dgrU5ydWyY

2.) Kneeling wasn't too bad. Being that my ass couldn't touch the ground I found myself sitting on my rear foot which you couldn't do too long (foot is bent in a werdo angle)... Once I got the hang of it it wasn't too bad, BUT it was really hard to do this with my PIG 13lb LMT at a 45angle using RTS offset irons. Do-able, but not easy.

3.) Sitting..... OMG, sitting sucked the most out of all 4 sections (at least for me it did).... If you can get past the sitting part, then you are home free as the prone / bench / supported part is a cake walk & the 25yard / 50yard isn't too bad either.... I found myself trying all 3 (open leg, cross leg "indian style", and cross ankle), and I ended up using the cross leg "indian style".... Let me tell ya, IT WAS HARD... at least for me it was and I would highly suggest some "dry fire" practice on the sitting part to give you an idea how hard it is before you start kicking bullets down the tube.

4.) 100yard prone / bench is really easy (at least for me it was). Once you get past the 75yard sitting part it was a cake walk. I find that with my aimpoint red-dot I like to co-witness my rear small aperture on the lowest visible red-dot setting on the 100yard shots... doing the above produces a really really crisp red-dot for detail work @ 100yards. The RTS offset irons at 100yards can be kinda hard & you got to make sure you don't over twist past 45degrees as this obviously screws with your point of impact. As for the 1-4vortex at 100yard = walk in the park.

4.) my DPMS 3G1 with the 1-4 vortex viper PST scope obviously cleaned house between the 3 different OPTICS options. I'm a big fan of this set up for a "close range" AR rig set up so far... even more so than the red-dot, but then again I'm used to scopes.

ptrlcop · Jul 21, 2013

I spent about an hour in dry practice with kneeling/sitting yesterday. I can't wait to try this on the range! During dry practice it seemed really important to let your body settle into the position. I was starting with my lower body and consciously relaxing muscle groups and trying to melt into my position. A few times when I really got the sitting right I felt like I could see my dot bounce with my heartbeat.

elfster1234 · Jul 21, 2013

If you can, actually aim at a 75yard target (maybe in your backyard if in the countryside or out a window & double check rifle is empty) while doing the dryfire test run on the sitting part (aiming at a target in your living room doesnt give you a good idea & you need a pinpoint target 75yards away).... Ive also noticed that i need to control my "anticipation of recoil jerk" while doing this test also above and beyond good form. You will really get a good idea (especially with 1x non magnified) how hard it is during the 75sitting part that your sights need to be dead still or your aiming will be all over place / on & off the paper forcing you to start over if you miss which happened to me with my LMT. I shouldve praticed before i started especially with my heavy 13lbs LMT pig.

I also made the mistake of wearing shorts... Skin on skin doesn't work so well in these tests. Hopefully it isn't to hot outside. Sometimes you don't have an option.

ptrlcop said:
I spent about an hour in dry practice with kneeling/sitting yesterday. I can't wait to try this on the range! During dry practice it seemed really important to let your body settle into the position. I was starting with my lower body and consciously relaxing muscle groups and trying to melt into my position. A few times when I really got the sitting right I felt like I could see my dot bounce with my heartbeat.

elfster1234 · Jul 21, 2013

Oh yeah one last note,,,,, if you have a spotting scope or maybe another rifle with a high power 12xplus scope = don't forget to bring it so you're not walking back & forth to targets to make sure you're on paper with your non-magnified rifle.

bornhunter04 · Jul 23, 2013

Here's My entry that I shot sunday. I could definitely do better, but I rushed my shots, it was hot and i wanted to work on other things. I know poor excuses. I used a GI Sling for all positions.

Shot with Custom Built 3 Gun AR using Vortex PST 1-4 MRAD
Average Group Size of all 4 targets = 3.726
Rifle Used = Custom AR
Barrel Length / Type = 18" Stainless SPR Wilson Combat
Optics = Vortex PST 1-4 MRAD
Mount = Vortex Cantilever Mount

Shot with Reloads
FC Brass
Fed 205
23.5gr Varget
75gr Hornady HPBT
2.250 COAL

25 Yards Standing @ 5.577 + 50 Yards Kneeling @ 3.128 + 75 Yards Sitting @ 3.894 + 100 Yards Prone @ 2.308 = 14.907 / 4 = 3.726

25 Yards Standing with sling:

50 Yards Kneeling with Sling:

75 Yards Sitting Cross Legged with Sling:

100 Yards prone with Sling:

The Rifle:

elfster1234 · Jul 23, 2013

fantastic job and i'll get you on the board in a couple hours when I get home... what did you find the hardest out of the 4 positions? your thoughts?

bornhunter04 said:
Here's My entry that I shot sunday. I could definitely do better, but I rushed my shots, it was hot and i wanted to work on other things. I know poor excuses. I used a GI Sling for all positions.

Shot with Custom Built 3 Gun AR using Vortex PST 1-4 MRAD
Average Group Size of all 4 targets = 3.726
Rifle Used = Custom AR
Barrel Length / Type = 18" Stainless SPR Wilson Combat
Optics = Vortex PST 1-4 MRAD
Mount = Vortex Cantilever Mount

Shot with Reloads
FC Brass
Fed 205
23.5gr Varget
75gr Hornady HPBT
2.250 COAL

25 Yards Standing @ 5.577 + 50 Yards Kneeling @ 3.128 + 75 Yards Sitting @ 3.894 + 100 Yards Prone @ 2.308 = 14.907 / 4 = 3.726

25 Yards Standing with sling:

50 Yards Kneeling with Sling:

75 Yards Sitting Cross Legged with Sling:

100 Yards prone with Sling:

The Rifle:

elfster1234 · Jul 23, 2013

once again bornhunter04, nice job! you're on the board!

bornhunter04 · Jul 24, 2013

Standing was the position i have the most trouble with. I just need to practice more. At the appleseed clinic i went to, i was able to put 10 shots in about a 3-3.5" group standing at 25 yards. I was just able to get my sling tightened up in the proper way and hammer away, don't know what happened with this one. The magpul MOE rifle stock is about 3/4-1" to long for me to use in the sitting position. It kind of makes me rock back against the rifle instead of leaning forward so i can't get my arm on the outside of my knee for that rock solid hold.

The load i was using will produce .5-.75 MOA groups @ 100, so the shooting was all on me. It's still good practice though.

Dallas4rceMarine · Jul 24, 2013

I wish I saw this last week! Might not be able to take pics where I'm going..

Twitchy · Jul 24, 2013

Nice work guys. I'm going to try and get to the range tomorrow for this.

elfster1234 · Jul 25, 2013

Nice! looking forward to it! what rifle / optic combo?

Twitchy said:
Nice work guys. I'm going to try and get to the range tomorrow for this.

Twitchy · Jul 25, 2013

I'll be using a Spike upper/lower with a WOA 18" SPR barrel with PRI 15" FF tube. Irons/sling. It has a bushmaster 2 stage trigger also. I originally built it to be a bench gun (meaning so my wife could shoot off a bench), but it's a pretty handy rifle so I like it for this type of shooting.

Now I just need to find my sling. I would have done this days ago, but the sling is lost somewhere in my closet.

elfster1234 · Jul 26, 2013

some more vids.... this guy is mr serious to the tenth power... notice the dry-fire shots he takes before he shoots.

If you think you have any helpful videos, then feel free to post them!

sitting cross ankle... I might try this on my next try
High Power Rifle, Sitting Practice - Snapping In - YouTube
[HD] Eliseo R5 Rifle (Remington 700) Rapid Sitting String (Test/Practice) - 2009-03-28c - YouTube

ahhh yeah, they do this shit standing at 200yards on the 10x ring
Skeletal (Bone) Support in Rifle Shooting and Photography - YouTube

kneeling suggestions
USA Shooting - 3-Position - The Kneeling Position - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube
M16 Qualification Kneeling Position - YouTube
SOCOM 16 Rifle Shooting from Kneeling - YouTube
MSG Torres Rapid Fire Kneeling - YouTube

Finally, some prone ideas (figure most of you don't need help with this one):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c-03SuI4Co

HotAirBaloonInstructor · Jul 26, 2013

i wouldn't consider anything past 25 cqc...

elfster1234 · Jul 26, 2013

Looking forward to it my friend.

Twitchy said:
I'll be using a Spike upper/lower with a WOA 18" SPR barrel with PRI 15" FF tube. Irons/sling. It has a bushmaster 2 stage trigger also. I originally built it to be a bench gun (meaning so my wife could shoot off a bench), but it's a pretty handy rifle so I like it for this type of shooting.

Now I just need to find my sling. I would have done this days ago, but the sling is lost somewhere in my closet.

ropegun · Aug 6, 2013

Shot with Wilson Combat AR-15, 16” barrel, 1/9 twist. Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5X scope. Atlas bipod. Forward portion of TAB sling used in sitting and kneeling positions. All shots taken at 5x scope magnification. Hornady factory VMax 55 grain ammo. Two-inch diameter Shoot-N-See target dots. Shot on 8/4/13 at Great Guns Sporting, Nunn, Colorado. Witnessed off and on by Great Guns roving RSO.

The Wilson hardware, with range behind.

1.295” – 25 yard standing
1.636” – 50 yard kneeling with sling
2.115” – 75 yard sitting with sling
1.608” – 100 yard prone with bipod
6.654” total – divided by 4 = 1.664 scorecard

elfster1234 · Aug 6, 2013

Jesus man,,, this will be hard to beat

Nice job! And ill get you on the boards later when i get home

ropegun said:
Shot with Wilson Combat AR-15, 16” barrel, 1/9 twist. Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5X scope. Atlas bipod. Forward portion of TAB sling used in sitting and kneeling positions. All shots taken at 5x scope magnification. Hornady factory VMax 55 grain ammo. Two-inch diameter Shoot-N-See target dots. Shot on 8/4/13 at Great Guns Sporting, Nunn, Colorado. Witnessed off and on by Great Guns roving RSO.

The Wilson hardware, with range behind.

1.295” – 25 yard standing
1.636” – 50 yard kneeling with sling
2.115” – 75 yard sitting with sling
1.608” – 100 yard prone with bipod
6.654” total – divided by 4 = 1.664 scorecard

elfster1234 · Aug 6, 2013

you're on the boards! WTG! you really set the bar high with this entry.

What part of the CQC did you find the hardest part? your thoughts?

ropegun said:
Shot with Wilson Combat AR-15, 16” barrel, 1/9 twist. Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5X scope. Atlas bipod. Forward portion of TAB sling used in sitting and kneeling positions. All shots taken at 5x scope magnification. Hornady factory VMax 55 grain ammo. Two-inch diameter Shoot-N-See target dots. Shot on 8/4/13 at Great Guns Sporting, Nunn, Colorado. Witnessed off and on by Great Guns roving RSO.

ropegun · Aug 6, 2013

elfster1234 said:
you're on the boards! WTG! you really set the bar high with this entry.

What part of the CQC did you find the hardest part? your thoughts?

Thanks. Every now and then even the blind squirrel finds a nut.

I don't find any one position inherently harder than another. They're just different. In my opinion, the closer the shooter is to the ground, the more likely one can build a stable shooting position. Potential accuracy with the various target distances was fairly well balanced against shooting positions.

This summer I attended two courses with Rifles Only -- precision rifle and carbine/pistol. Jacob Bynum emphasizes shooting from multiple positions, sometimes under less than optimal conditions, often under time pressure. I cannot say enough good things about RO training.

It is slowly sinking into my thick noggin that the fundamentals of marksmanship are the hardest part of precise shooting. When I consistently apply all of the fundamentals, I shoot well. When a brain fart occurs, the results are obvious.

JRM83 · Aug 7, 2013

I've never done any kind of positional shooting, and I keep telling myself to stop laying in the dirt and practicing supported prone, so this was a perfect opportunity to see how much work I need to do to be a well-rounded shooter. I shot with the bipod figuring my prone score would help balance out the other three. I had so much fun doing this the first time I shot the entire course of fire again without the bipod just to see how it would affect my groups. I ran a 20 round PMAG thinking it would be easier to get a solid position without a 30 round magazine in the way.

The Rifle:

Spikes Calico Jack lower
Noveske 18" Rogue Hunter upper w/ 16.7" NSR

<a href="http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/JRM83/media/IMG_20130807_132809_141.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/JRM83/IMG_20130807_132809_141.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130807_132809_141.jpg"/></a>

Standing

<a href="http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/JRM83/media/IMG_20130807_132210_934.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/JRM83/IMG_20130807_132210_934.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130807_132210_934.jpg"/></a>

Kneeling

<a href="http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/JRM83/media/IMG_20130807_132337_609.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/JRM83/IMG_20130807_132337_609.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130807_132337_609.jpg"/></a>

Sitting (This sucked)

<a href="http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/JRM83/media/IMG_20130807_132450_749.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/JRM83/IMG_20130807_132450_749.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130807_132450_749.jpg"/></a>

Prone (Not as great as I hoped)

<a href="http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/JRM83/media/IMG_20130807_132604_901.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/JRM83/IMG_20130807_132604_901.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130807_132604_901.jpg"/></a>

Average: 2.815 + 5.409 + 2.898 + 1.701 = 12.823 / 4 = 3.206

For fun I shot the whole thing again without the bipod, unfortunately I actually did worse in just about every position (probably used all my concentration on the first round). There is one hilarious note however. On the no-bipod prone stage I tried supporting the rifle with my support hand and after I dumped the first round into the lower corner of the paper. I said nuts to that and decided to just run the magazine as a monopod and see what happens. 20 round PMAGS don't work too well for this unfortunately, so I used the grip as the support on the ground, and sent the other 4 rounds downrange. Hilarity ensued.

<a href="http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/JRM83/media/IMG_20130807_133323_000.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh536/JRM83/IMG_20130807_133323_000.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130807_133323_000.jpg"/></a>

Good times.

elfster1234 · Aug 7, 2013

You're on the board! nice shooting and that is one kick ass looking rifle! What did you think then? sitting was the hardest? I thought so. Not only is this CQC really fun, but also really challenging!

JRM83 said:
I've never done any kind of positional shooting, and I keep telling myself to stop laying in the dirt and practicing supported prone, so this was a perfect opportunity to see how much work I need to do to be a well-rounded shooter. I shot with the bipod figuring my prone score would help balance out the other three. I had so much fun doing this the first time I shot the entire course of fire again without the bipod just to see how it would affect my groups. I ran a 20 round PMAG thinking it would be easier to get a solid position without a 30 round magazine in the way.

The Rifle:

Spikes Calico Jack lower
Noveske 18" Rogue Hunter upper w/ 16.7" NSR

Good times.

ptrlcop · Aug 23, 2013

I am going to save this from page 3. Unfortunately my laptop is down and I can't post pics. I ran this today in my SWAT gear(I was in a hurry so I literally ran from each yard line to the next).

Gun used was 16inch BCM Lightweight with giessle SSA and aimpoint t1 4moa. Ammo PMC 55gr.

Standing: 1.58. (Best 4=.82)
Kneeling: 3.98
Sitting: 2.69 (best 4= 1.76)
Prone: 3.83 (best 3= .52)

Obviously, I need to take the time to do this right and dial in those fliers(also shows why 3rd groups ain't shit). I didn't feel "right" in kneeling and went with it rather than building a good position. In the other positions my fliers were solely due to impatience and not taking time to let the sights settle. I also would like to play with aiming point sizes on the targets.

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