Craddock 400MODBB AR Barrels

[Glassaholic]

How many are using 400MODBB in their gas guns? Craddock offers the Bartlein 400MODBBwith their AR barrels, just curious if there is a marked improvement with how the barrel handles heat from steady semi auto fire, some barrels begin to open up and lose accuracy the more the barrel heats up.

 

[TheOE800]

I want to, but I’m struck by the value of just buying two Proof PR15 steel barrels for the same price. My bolt gun did get the special sauce though…

 

[Glassaholic]

I want to, but I’m struck by the value of just buying two Proof PR15 steel barrels for the same price. My bolt gun did get the special sauce though…

Funny enough, that is my big challenge as well. Get one barrel that lasts twice as long, or two barrels for the price of the other? My bigger question is whether or not the MODBB can handle POI better through continuous strings of fire over other barrels.

 

[TheOE800]

That would be a matter of thermal mass and stress relief though wouldn’t it?

 

[Glassaholic]

That would be a matter of thermal mass and stress relief though wouldn’t it?

To be honest, I am not certain what factors are involved in keeping accuracy with continued rate of fire, I'd be curious to hear from Mr. Green @Frank Green or others who know a lot more than I (which is many I would assume )

 

[ArTeeKay]

Might just be me, but unless I was considering switching calibers when I swapped on a new barrel, the value of saving one cycle of load development is worth a lot to me.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Hard to compare proof is like rolling the dice if you get a good barrel or a shitty one.

The bartlien, especially chambered by Cradock is guaranteed to be a hammer.

I have heard from a few people with the MODBB, its not worth it, they got nowhere near 2x the barrel life. But in these times, you roll with what you can get in stock in a reasonable time.

 

[Glassaholic]

Hard to compare proof is like rolling the dice if you get a good barrel or a shitty one.

I've always had very good experience with Proof barrels, only issue was a build I did years ago and got a Proof CF barrel in 308 for my AR-10 that just would not shoot (2.5 - 3 moa) in my rifle, after months of troubleshooting and research on the Hide I reached out to Proof and they said send the whole rifle into them and they will have their guy take a look (even though it was a Frankenstein AR), they tried everything to get my rifle to shoot and it just wouldn't with that barrel, they then put my barrel in another rifle and it shot 1/2 moa but they couldn't figure out what my rifle was so picky about, I finally asked if they'd put in a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel and see how that shot. They sent me back an image with 10 shots that fit inside a nickel so I asked "how much?" to switch from the 308 barrel to 6.5 Creedmoor - they said "no charge". I learned two things that day:

1. Proof Research will stand behind their products and treat you right
2. 6.5 Creedmoor is much more forgiving than 308 in gas guns

Straight Jacket Armory spun up a Proof SS barrel for my AI a couple years, that barrel shoots better than my AI barrels. It might be more the gunsmith who works up your barrel more than the barrel itself; however, I'm sure there are horror stories from all manufacturers about barrels that just wouldn't shoot.

Bartlein is probably one of the best manufacturer's there is when it comes to precision barrels, my question is more about their 400MODBB and it's ability to "shoot better" after the barrel heats up vs. other SS barrels, I'm not talking full auto dumps here, but 5 shot strings without much downtime between magazine swaps.

 

[Glassaholic]

Might just be me, but unless I was considering switching calibers when I swapped on a new barrel, the value of saving one cycle of load development is worth a lot to me.

I'm shooting more and more factory ammo these days vs. reloading that I just don't have much time for of late, so LD is not as much of a concern as it used to be.

 

[Ruff 364]

I have one but I have less than 500 rounds on it so far. It is a very nice shooter.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

See i don't want to waste weeks/months, time and money doing load development on a shitty barrel. There are enough smith out there who won't touch a proof barrel due to their inconsistent bore sizing, to know its an issue.

I have both a proof chambered prefit and an Altus proof barrel. The Proof chambered barrel wont shoot for shit but the Altus is a hammer.

So you have poor chamber jobs probally a result of how they just pump out prefits as fast as they can (reamer worn) with little/no chamber QC to catch it. Add the bore issues and they are no a no for me dawg.

Just buy a Bartlien or HH or K&P, get chambered by someone competent and you are virtually guaranteed to get a great shooting barrel.

 

[Glassaholic]

See i don't want to waste weeks/months, time and money doing load development on a shitty barrel. There are enough smith out there who won't touch a proof barrel due to their inconsistent bore sizing, to know its an issue.

I have both a proof chambered prefit and an Altus proof barrel. The Proof chambered barrel wont shoot for shit but the Altus is a hammer.

So you have poor chamber jobs probally a result of how they just pump out prefits as fast as they can (reamer worn) with little/no chamber QC to catch it. Add the bore issues and they are no a no for me dawg.

Just buy a Bartlien or HH or K&P, get chambered by someone competent and you are virtually guaranteed to get a great shooting barrel.

Can you go gripe in another thread please

 

[b6graham]

Hard to compare proof is like rolling the dice if you get a good barrel or a shitty one.

The bartlien, especially chambered by Cradock is guaranteed to be a hammer.

I have heard from a few people with the MODBB, its not worth it, they got nowhere near 2x the barrel life. But in these times, you roll with what you can get in stock in a reasonable time.

well good thing the math says it's really only 40-50% additional that make the BB more cost effective

 

[Hog Hunters]

if you're looking for a truly accurate match-grade barrel, they're out there. The barrels will be heavy, they'll be fairly expensive, you should shoot them with quality ammo for the best accuracy, you probably shouldn't do mag dumps with them. You may have to order the barrel from a shop that cuts the chamber - like Compass Lake, White Oak, or Craddock. It may take a 2-4 weeks to have the barrel in your hands. But barrels are out there.

 

[lash]

I’m just sitting here waiting for someone to actually answer the OP question. I’ve got time, but it would be easier if I didn’t have to read through all the drivel first.

 

[b6graham]

I’m just sitting here waiting for someone to actually answer the OP question. I’ve got time, but it would be easier if I didn’t have to read through all the drivel first.

doubt you'll find an answer comparing how groups open up between the steels from more than 1 or two people who actually have the capability to test this...if there is even a difference in how they heat and respond to heat

@Frank Green

 

[lash]

Oh, I don’t doubt what you’re saying at all. I didn’t ask the question, but it’s an interesting one in any event. Unfortunately, there are few ways to actually test for this kind of information without spending huge amounts of time and ammo expended in very controlled environments.

It’s almost like the classic, “How many accurate rounds can I get through X barrel/caliber?” questions. Too many variables to get a valid answer outside of manufacturers’ or ammunition manufactures’ facilities.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Can you go gripe in another thread please

You just talked about how Proof made it right on a barrel that wouldnt shoot. It was a response to that.

Sorry it didn't fit the narrative of what you wanted to read.

And as been stated the MODBB actual results in accuracy oriented guns AKA match guns from those that I know that have run one, are not 100% more barrel life More like 20-30% if that. You can make your own valued based decision.

And for what its worth, I will always choose a bartlien barrel if that is an option. They are the gold standard for a reason.

 

[Glassaholic]

You just talked about how Proof made it right on a barrel that wouldnt shoot. It was a response to that.

Sorry it didn't fit the narrative of what you wanted to read.

And as been stated the MODBB actual results in accuracy oriented guns AKA match guns from those that I know that have run one, are not 100% more barrel life More like 20-30% if that. You can make your own valued based decision.

And for what its worth, I will always choose a bartlien barrel if that is an option. They are the gold standard for a reason.

Did you miss the part where the same Proof barrel shot 1/2 moa groups out of a different rifle?

:begin rant:
It’s rare that any of what you say fits anyones narrative but your own bias towards your favored manufacturers.

Too often I see your name pop up in threads where you choose to just dump on something you don’t like. I get it, we’ve all been burned by faulty equipment but then there are those whose self devoted purpose in life seems to be to bash a manufacturer and make sure they can influence everyone they possibly can.

Based on previous history it is doubtful I’m going to change your mind about Proof (or your other despised manufacturers), so we can leave it with - you despise them and think anyone who’d buy one is never going to shoot a decent group while I and many others have had positive experiences.
:end rant:

Unless you actually have something to contribute to this thread rather than just bash Proof I’d rather you take your comments elsewhere.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Did you miss the part where the same Proof barrel shot 1/2 moa groups out of a different rifle?

:begin rant:
It’s rare that any of what you say fits anyones narrative but your own bias towards your favored manufacturers.

Too often I see your name pop up in threads where you choose to just dump on something you don’t like. I get it, we’ve all been burned by faulty equipment but then there are those whose self devoted purpose in life seems to be to bash a manufacturer and make sure they can influence everyone they possibly can.

Based on previous history it is doubtful I’m going to change your mind about Proof (or your other despised manufacturers), so we can leave it with - you despise them and think anyone who’d buy one is never going to shoot a decent group while I and many others have had positive experiences.
:end rant:

Unless you actually have something to contribute to this thread rather than just bash Proof I’d rather you take your comments elsewhere.

CobraCutter/CrabsAndFootball is gonna do his normal thing now.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Did you miss the part where the same Proof barrel shot 1/2 moa groups out of a different rifle?

:begin rant:
It’s rare that any of what you say fits anyones narrative but your own bias towards your favored manufacturers.

Too often I see your name pop up in threads where you choose to just dump on something you don’t like. I get it, we’ve all been burned by faulty equipment but then there are those whose self devoted purpose in life seems to be to bash a manufacturer and make sure they can influence everyone they possibly can.

Based on previous history it is doubtful I’m going to change your mind about Proof (or your other despised manufacturers), so we can leave it with - you despise them and think anyone who’d buy one is never going to shoot a decent group while I and many others have had positive experiences.
:end rant:

Unless you actually have something to contribute to this thread rather than just bash Proof I’d rather you take your comments elsewhere.

Again, sorry you don't like the narrative.

How about on Monday when they open back up give Dan Warner of Warner tool a call and ask him what he thinks of Proof Barrels. There are half a dozen other smiths who have said the exact same thing as Dan to me, except he is not shy about it.

Experience is just that. There are alot of subpar companies in this industry and the ONLY way they get better is being being held accountable.

You also are just plain making shit up. Where did I say "You despise them and think anyone who’d buy one is never going to shoot a decent group while I and many others have had positive experiences."? If you are going to quote me, atleast get it right. There are plenty of people out there with proof barrels that shoot well. I am one of them. I also have one that is shit. 50% failure rate right there.

Here is what it comes down to since so many get offended and cry when their favorite brand gets called out. Proof may make 1000 barrels and 100 of them have a problem. 10% issues. Out of them, depending on user maybe only 5 or 6% will actually understand how they shoot and what should be expected after exhausting a ton of time and money trying to diagnose the problem. Half will blame something else, ammo, gun, scope, rings, chassis, bad shooter, bad chamber job ect.

Do you honestly believe Barlien, Hawk Hill, K&P & Krieger have the same failure rate for making blanks?

I don't have the time or patience for that bullshit. We KNOW proof puts out a higher failure rate than comparable cut rifle barrel manufactures. Simple google searches confirm this. Talk to most of the high volume, respected smith that you hear about on this site (and some on this site aren't worth the business to be honest) and ask them what barrels do they have the most issues with post chamber job. Its not rocket science. Why the fuck would I waste weeks/months to wait for a blank, spend $400 to get it chambered, wasted how many hundreds of dollars of components and hours of time when I can just buy what is essentially guaranteed to function at a level where I want for about the same money? Its an expected value equation and the results are not even close.

So when someone comes here and asks for advice or information, it does them a disservice to not give them the whole picture. If it was me and my money and I did not know about any of this shit, I would hope someone would step up and say something before I take a risk I was not aware of or willing to take.

But hey proof gives out tons of certs and has a gnarly military discount, so we should just suck their dicks even if they put out lots of bad barrels right?

 

[ormandj]

There is no discernible difference in heat handling. It just lasts longer before accuracy goes. I’ve seen 1.25-1.5x barrel life across all the barrels I’ve shot out, depending on caliber. I have identical barrels in 400MODBB and not and they shoot approximately the same. Some days one does a little better than the other, but I’ve not done any back to back comparison on the same day.

That said, I’ve never had issues with stringing with normal courses of fire (5 shot groups with cooldown) that you’d expect when shooting for accuracy, even with .750” barrels in normal SS. If you’re expecting sub-MOA across mag dumps of 20+ round magazines, you won’t be happy.

My next set of barrels from Craddock will be 400MOBB, my latest 7mm barrel for my 280AI is 400MODBB, etc. I’m a big fan because the time saved in not needing to work up new loads quite as often is worth it.

 

[Glassaholic]

There is no discernible difference in heat handling. It just lasts longer before accuracy goes. I’ve seen 1.25-1.5x barrel life across all the barrels I’ve shot out, depending on caliber. I have identical barrels in 400MODBB and not and they shoot approximately the same. Some days one does a little better than the other, but I’ve not done any back to back comparison on the same day.

That said, I’ve never had issues with stringing with normal courses of fire (5 shot groups with cooldown) that you’d expect when shooting for accuracy, even with .750” barrels in normal SS. If you’re expecting sub-MOA across mag dumps of 20+ round magazines, you won’t be happy.

My next set of barrels from Craddock will be 400MOBB, my latest 7mm barrel for my 280AI is 400MODBB, etc. I’m a big fan because the time saved in not needing to work up new loads quite as often is worth it.

Thank you D, greatly appreciated your feedback.

 

[TheOE800]

So then not likely worth it for the factory ammo shooter, is that what you’d say @ormandj?

 

[TheBigCountry]

Again, sorry you don't like the narrative.

How about on Monday when they open back up give Dan Warner of Warner tool a call and ask him what he thinks of Proof Barrels. There are half a dozen other smiths who have said the exact same thing as Dan to me, except he is not shy about it.

Experience is just that. There are alot of subpar companies in this industry and the ONLY way they get better is being being held accountable.

You also are just plain making shit up. Where did I say "You despise them and think anyone who’d buy one is never going to shoot a decent group while I and many others have had positive experiences."? If you are going to quote me, atleast get it right. There are plenty of people out there with proof barrels that shoot well. I am one of them. I also have one that is shit. 50% failure rate right there.

Here is what it comes down to since so many get offended and cry when their favorite brand gets called out. Proof may make 1000 barrels and 100 of them have a problem. 10% issues. Out of them, depending on user maybe only 5 or 6% will actually understand how they shoot and what should be expected after exhausting a ton of time and money trying to diagnose the problem. Half will blame something else, ammo, gun, scope, rings, chassis, bad shooter, bad chamber job ect.

Do you honestly believe Barlien, Hawk Hill, K&P & Krieger have the same failure rate for making blanks?

I don't have the time or patience for that bullshit. We KNOW proof puts out a higher failure rate than comparable cut rifle barrel manufactures. Simple google searches confirm this. Talk to most of the high volume, respected smith that you hear about on this site (and some on this site aren't worth the business to be honest) and ask them what barrels do they have the most issues with post chamber job. Its not rocket science. Why the fuck would I waste weeks/months to wait for a blank, spend $400 to get it chambered, wasted how many hundreds of dollars of components and hours of time when I can just buy what is essentially guaranteed to function at a level where I want for about the same money? Its an expected value equation and the results are not even close.

So when someone comes here and asks for advice or information, it does them a disservice to not give them the whole picture. If it was me and my money and I did not know about any of this shit, I would hope someone would step up and say something before I take a risk I was not aware of or willing to take.

But hey proof gives out tons of certs and has a gnarly military discount, so we should just suck their dicks even if they put out lots of bad barrels right?

You seem really mad there Cobra/MrCrabs/Deathwhatever your newest iteration is. Chill out, have a Snickers. You don’t know everything.

 

[ormandj]

So then not likely worth it for the factory ammo shooter, is that what you’d say @ormandj?

Depends on your needs and the price. Depending on the cartridge, just use 1.5x as a multiplier, and calculate how many additional shots you’ll get out of the barrel, divide by barrel cost, and you’ll have your cost per round. If your game is saving money, then that’ll tell you if it’s worth it.

You also have to factor in barrel turnaround time/downtime when shooting. Especially in a barrel burning overbore cartridge it may make sense even if it costs a little more so you spend more time shooting. Going from 800 to 1200 rounds of accurate barrel life in a magnum is significant. Swapping a barrel isn’t as big a deal as it was before prefits, so it isn’t as bad. You will still probably have to rezero your scope, and deal with all the accessories you might have in your handguard, so it’s not painless in an AR, so factor in your time, too.

That said, I generally order a few barrels at a time so I always have a spare, and just order a new one when I burn out the first. Most people don’t shoot this much, though. For me, it makes sense as a reloader and because I value my time more highly than some money, but everyone’s value equation will be different. Hope this helps!

 

[lennyo3034]

I have a 400BB in 6CM on the way. I plan to run it hard and don’t expect it to last beyond this year. Unfortunately no data for you right now but will have good data points in 6 months.

FWIW previous gas gun 6 Creedmoor barrels have lasted between 500-800 rounds for me.

 

[Glassaholic]

I have a 400BB in 6CM on the way. I plan to run it hard and don’t expect it to last beyond this year. Unfortunately no data for you right now but will have good data points in 6 months.

FWIW previous gas gun 6 Creedmoor barrels have lasted between 500-800 rounds for me.

I will be curious as well, I respect your opinion Lenny and will try to connect with you this week, you too ormand as I’ve learned a lot from you both this past year.

 

[ormandj]

I will be curious as well, I respect your opinion Lenny and will try to connect with you this week, you too ormand as I’ve learned a lot from you both this past year.

You got it! I’m about to order more barrels from Paul at Craddock, and actually just caught up with him a bit last week, so good timing to ask about all this while it was fresh in my mind.

FWIW you’d get great barrel life in 6ARC. You should check it out - it’s a great cartridge for ar15 sized rifles if that’s what you’re building. It’s a lot more like a 308 than a 6CM in barrel life. 3-4K easy if you don’t abuse the barrel, and that’s just with SS.

 

[Frank Green]

To be honest, I am not certain what factors are involved in keeping accuracy with continued rate of fire, I'd be curious to hear from Mr. Green @Frank Green or others who know a lot more than I (which is many I would assume )

Not exactly sure which question you are asking.

Is the BB material better than standard 416R material in terms of rate of fire and holding POI shift?

If so I'll say no off hand. It's possible but nothing that I can test for off hand or how to test it with conclusive results/data to prove one over the other.

That goes back to more of how the barrel is made in my opinion. I always say this...."the straighter the blank, the more stress free the material is to begin with, the more uniform the bore and groove sizes are over the length of the blank and a more uniform the twist of the rifling is the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. Single point cut rifling doesn't induce any stress into the blank during rifling vs other methods like button rifling, hammer forging etc...also twist uniformity goes to cut rifling vs the other methods as well.

Residual stress or stress induced into the blank during manufacturing is one thing no barrel maker can measure for with out destroying the blank in some form of lab testing.

If a barrel blank has a lot of stress in it...one thing that we can see if it does...it will bow/bend during contouring. If that happens we automatically throw the blank away. It never makes it to rifling....and the customer never sees it. It's not common but does happen.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

doubt you'll find an answer comparing how groups open up between the steels from more than 1 or two people who actually have the capability to test this...if there is even a difference in how they heat and respond to heat

@Frank Green

You would be surprised during ammo testing/bullet testing the rates of fire and number of rounds in between cleanings some of these places do.

I'll just use 308win. for a standard right now. I know one bullet maker will run normally up to 50 rounds thru the barrel in between cleanings. Sometimes as many as 150 rounds depending on time frame and what they are up against. They will shoot 10 rounds per string of fire.

I forget the time frame they have to do this in. That's a question I have to ask.

Another ammo maker I know testing 5.56 ammo has to get like 20 or 30 rounds off per string of testing in like a 1 minute time frame. They record the groups for record etc...I seen them do it 16 years ago.

I will actually be at both of these places for meetings the 3rd week of July. I'll bring up the question.

Later, Frank

 

[b6graham]

So then not likely worth it for the factory ammo shooter, is that what you’d say @ormandj?

even with factory ammo you still see a benefit. all barrels have a break in/speed up period you have to get past before chrono numbers matter

 

[Frank Green]

I do have a FTR barrel (308win) in cfw finished at 30" or 31". It's 1.250" straight being shot tested right now. In strings of fire of up to 26-30 rounds shot in a time period of 22 minutes there is no walking/loss in accuracy etc. In fact the shooter/gun has won FTR matches with it. He says it shoots as good as any of his all steel barrels do. Even in hot air temps as well.

 

[TheOE800]

I do have a FTR barrel (308win) in cfw finished at 30" or 31". It's 1.250" straight being shot tested right now. In strings of fire of up to 26-30 rounds shot in a time period of 22 minutes there is no walking/loss in accuracy etc. In fact the shooter/gun has won FTR matches with it. He says it shoots as good as any of his all steel barrels do. Even in hot air temps as well.

As an aside Frank, speaking to the CFW barrels specifically - are different contours/profiles changes in the thickness of the CF wrap itself or the underlying barrel diameter?

 

[Frank Green]

As an aside Frank, speaking to the CFW barrels specifically - are different contours/profiles changes in the thickness of the CF wrap itself or the underlying barrel diameter?

For the most part no. Not on ours. The steel liner if you want to call it that is pretty much the same.

On barrels strictly for the big magnums like in 338 Lapua, 300 Norma we make the breech diameter 1.250" and the liner a little bigger.

Later, Frank

 

[Dogtown]

I chose the MODBB option specifically because 6mm Creedmoor is a known barrel burner, but so far I only have 300 rounds through it (16" AR10). Will let you know in a year if it exceeds barrel life expectations.

 

[Glassaholic]

Not exactly sure which question you are asking.

Is the BB material better than standard 416R material in terms of rate of fire and holding POI shift?

Yes, that is correct.

If so I'll say no off hand. It's possible but nothing that I can test for off hand or how to test it with conclusive results/data to prove one over the other.

Understood.

That goes back to more of how the barrel is made in my opinion. I always say this...."the straighter the blank, the more stress free the material is to begin with, the more uniform the bore and groove sizes are over the length of the blank and a more uniform the twist of the rifling is the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. Single point cut rifling doesn't induce any stress into the blank during rifling vs other methods like button rifling, hammer forging etc...also twist uniformity goes to cut rifling vs the other methods as well.

This makes sense and something I've known for a long time with cut rifling but wasn't sure if that had anything to do with sustained rates of fire typically from semi-autos, I say typically because we can easily shoot fairly quickly with bolt actions as well, certainly enough to heat up the barrel enough to begin to cause issues (if there are going to be issues).

Residual stress or stress induced into the blank during manufacturing is one thing no barrel maker can measure for with out destroying the blank in some form of lab testing.

If a barrel blank has a lot of stress in it...one thing that we can see if it does...it will bow/bend during contouring. If that happens we automatically throw the blank away. It never makes it to rifling....and the customer never sees it. It's not common but does happen.

Later, Frank

Thanks for the great information.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

Did you miss the part where the same Proof barrel shot 1/2 moa groups out of a different rifle?

:begin rant:
It’s rare that any of what you say fits anyones narrative but your own bias towards your favored manufacturers.

Too often I see your name pop up in threads where you choose to just dump on something you don’t like. I get it, we’ve all been burned by faulty equipment but then there are those whose self devoted purpose in life seems to be to bash a manufacturer and make sure they can influence everyone they possibly can.

Based on previous history it is doubtful I’m going to change your mind about Proof (or your other despised manufacturers), so we can leave it with - you despise them and think anyone who’d buy one is never going to shoot a decent group while I and many others have had positive experiences.
:end rant:

Unless you actually have something to contribute to this thread rather than just bash Proof I’d rather you take your comments elsewhere.

I’m gonna be copy and pasting this a lot, just inserting different manufacturers as needed. This is gonna save me a ton of time.

 

[Dogtown]

Tribal thinking, fad following, brand obsession, 0-100 aggressive reaction to fucking posts...WELCOME TO SNIPER'S HIDE!

 

[232593]

I chose the MODBB option specifically because 6mm Creedmoor is a known barrel burner, but so far I only have 300 rounds through it (16" AR10). Will let you know in a year if it exceeds barrel life expectations.

Thank you, I look forward to the results. I’m thinking of getting one in 22CM from Craddock.

 

[mattman215]

I bought a proof that may as well been a shotgun barrel swapped it out to a different brand and the rifle is a hammer.

 

[232593]

I chose the MODBB option specifically because 6mm Creedmoor is a known barrel burner, but so far I only have 300 rounds through it (16" AR10). Will let you know in a year if it exceeds barrel life expectations.

How did it perform?

 

[RickyRodney]

I just got my 5.56 mk12 mod400 barrel from them for my LMT project. I'll let you know how it goes once its done.