Advanced Marksmanship Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

BigBrother

BigBrother

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 27, 2007
687
5
New England
#1
Hey all- so I was just adjusting my Jewell trigger (AR) trying to get a crisp but very, very light second stage. As I was adjusting the various screws (props to the Jewell for allowing you to do this easily, btw), I started inadvertently lengthening the travel between the second stage and its break. In other words, it was no longer first stage->stop->second stage->break, it was first stage ->stop->travel->break.

Well, it's something I gathered was to be avoided, from the countless things I've read on here (glass rod and what not). And yet, like with some pistols that have long travel, I found it actually aided in my shot. What I realized was that with a clean break, there's more of a tendency for a shift when it breaks, even using perfect alignment and finger pad, since it's muscle tension building, building, then an instant release (much like pressing hard against a locked door that is suddenly opened from the other side). But with a little bit of slack, I found it was much more of a steady pull back- in other words, the trigger was giving, and then the break was much more fluid.

Well, like I said, definitely runs counter to what a lot do, but curious if any on here introduce this travel intentionally for similar reasons.

Thanks.
 
#2
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

if you do bolt guns w/tweeked triggers........why would you have anything other that what would replicate a bolt gun trigger in your AR platform ????


you could not give me a two-stage trigger for anything......
 
#3
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

I have two-stage triggers in both my bolt gun and my AR, so I'd guess you'd say that taste varies.
laugh.gif
 
#4
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

As a rule, I prefer single stage triggers. But it's just a (range shooting) preference, nothing more.

That said, after shooting a single stage exclusively for most of this year I dusted-off the AE and shot the last match with it. I had no issues with switching between the two types of triggers.

In fact, I found that the two stage trigger made me more comfortable when establishing a rythm on the timed-fire stages: when I need to shoot quickly, but on command, the first stage helps me initiate the firing sequence for each shot at the same point after the exhale.
 
#5
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

So basically you guys are all talking about the single versus two stage, which is a noble but much treaded debate
smile.gif


I'm specifically referring to using a traveling trigger versus a glass rod one- irrespective of whether it's on a single stage or on the second stage of a two stage.

To reiterate, it's kind of like this- a trigger that is just sloppy and unevenly creepy is no fun- that's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is a trigger that, using my door analogy, is more like swinging a smooth revolving door than pushing a locked one that is suddenly opened, which is what the glass rod idea essentially is.

It's almost like the concept of follow-through, applied at the trigger finger level
smile.gif
. The break is not really a break but more of just a step along that slow and steady pull.

Anyway, I'm no gunsmith and I still don't know some of the terms related to triggers, but I know some guns I've shot, mostly handguns, explicitly have no solid-resistance break point, it's just pull-pull-pull-bang. And now that I've tweaked my AR trigger to do a bit of that (a bit- it's not a mile here), it actually feels better since I can focus solely on sight alignment and "forget" any muscle attention I'd need on the finger since it's just doing a slow mechanical pull.

Oh, lastly, re: single vs. two stage, I'm a bit with Graham. I still can't say I prefer one over the other (for slow deliberate fire). My M1A has a heavy two stage, my stock 700 has a heavy one stage, and my AR has a light two stage- it takes very little time to acclimate when I switch. Ironically, if I were going into anything rapid fire (3 gun carbine, etc.) I think I'd actually want a zero-travel, extremely light, break like glass one stage so that the power of thought alone operates it
wink.gif
. The reason being that I feel in fast fire my pressure applied would be strong and without consideration, (i.e. not as concerned with tiny flinches), where with slow fire I try to keep a somewhat longer pull time to focus.

 
#6
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

....if you got to think about it.......it just leads to all-the-more BRAIN DAMAGE.


ultimately ...it all distills down to how you train.....


......and as an afterthought, my STI that i run-n-gun with also it a crisp 2lb.....real close to my comp rifle and AR for my 3-gun stuff........



subtle and demure
 
#7
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

I am the same.

It is like a <span style="font-style: italic">very slight</span> roll off the engagement surfaces - just enough that you know exactly when it is going to go boom, yet so subtle that it is barely noticed.

Good luck
 
#8
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the same.

It is like a <span style="font-style: italic">very slight</span> roll off the engagement surfaces - just enough that you know exactly when it is going to go boom, yet so subtle that it is barely noticed.

Good luck </div></div>

EXACTLY. You touched on another thing I didn't mention, which is that even though there is now real distance for it to travel before breaking, I ironically have a much better sense of when it will break than before.
 
#10
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

No, I actually set it back to lock correctly, then loosened it back in the other direction because of what I found. I was posting to see if anyone else found a little bit of travel to be useful.

But whatever, I was keeping a stopwatch running to determine time till 9H chimed in. You're a wonderful human being.
 
#11
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

BB,

I cannot answer your question specifically, because triggers are not designed for it.

Your premise is one of trigger release at a particular point of trigger position with a constant tension v. trigger release at a particular trigger tension or pressure (which is, as you know, how triggers are designed). It would be an interesting project to test you premise however..... sounds like you have some patent work ahead of you.....

Scott
 
#14
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

Big Brother,

For an accurate trigger in comps and precision shooting it should be very light. But very predictable. If you have 'take-up'/travel before the trigger breaks it's fine as long as it's smooth. That's the hardest thing to get. Smooth and travel together.

This is a known fact. That if you are using muscles to 'pull' a trigger they are going to shake. That's why the light trigger. Never so light though that it's unsafe. A field precision gun should have a heavier trigger than a bench precision gun. Again, though, it still needs to be as light as what the shooter won't be adversely affected by. Some guys can handle 8 lbs. pull on a trigger and still shoot sub MOA. Other guys seem to have a tough time doing it with a 2 lb trigger. Overtravel is a big consideration too. Especially when using a two stage. That smooth swing of the trigger trough #1 and breaking of #2 stage shouldn't be interrupted by a rough travel or a sudden stop at the end of the break of #2. I kind of felt I was in no-mans land with my K-31. I had read the part of David Tubbs book where he talks about trigger control. That's when I applied what he did and then I realized that K-31 really was a super trigger. Smooth is it's whole key.

In different circumstances obviously different preferences apply. My AR carbine is set up like your trigger. There is a long amount of travel through the second stage. For accuracy shooting, it works well enough. But for fast repeat relative accurate shots it is set up right.
 
#15
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?



Doing this on purpose, that is having creep by choice, is called a rolloff trigger. Smiths have been doing them since before you were born. Simply taking the sharp edge off the sear will turn about any trigger into a rolloff trigger. Some like them, some don't.
 
#16
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

9H, I saw all the versions you wrote of the above before your latest edits- in which you called me an idiot without the IQ to operate guns, and stated that I'm confounded by a simple mechanical device. And THEN you state that everything I've been asking about is actually a *preference* some people put in intentionally, which completely validates and answers my original question about this.

Bravo. Were you seriously not hugged enough as a kid or something? Please don't answer my posts anymore, honestly. If you enjoy lording your knowledge over everyone else, there are plenty of other threads on which to do it.
 
#18
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

Hardly.

When I'm in need of the advice from someone that shoots sub-Marksman scores in a discipline he does not understand yet still wants to re-write the rules for, I'll be sure and look you up BB.

You are not the first and won't be the last to mis-adjust the sear engagement on a trigger, intentional or otherwise.
 
#20
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

BB,

I too like my triggers with alot of creep. I especially like spending alot of money on a HQ trigger like Jewell and adjusting it till it creeps like my S&W Sigma. I don't know if you have tried this, but I take vice grips to it (unloaded of course) and pull it side to side to give it a little horizontal creep too. It really helps me make up for my terrible shooting form. It's just comfortable to me.

*grin*
 
#22
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BB,

I too like my triggers with alot of creep. I especially like spending alot of money on a HQ trigger like Jewell and adjusting it till it creeps like my S&W Sigma. I don't know if you have tried this, but I take vice grips to it (unloaded of course) and pull it side to side to give it a little horizontal creep too. It really helps me make up for my terrible shooting form. It's just comfortable to me.

*grin* </div></div>

Nice.
smile.gif
 
#24
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

The easiest way to get an AR with a Jewell trigger to have a crisp second stage break is to remove it form the rifle, sell it on AR15.com, and install a Geisselle.

The Jewell AR trigger is poorly designed and made. They make a great bolt gun trigger (if you like a single stage).
 
#25
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The easiest way to get an AR with a Jewell trigger to have a crisp second stage break is to remove it form the rifle, sell it on AR15.com, and install a Geisselle.

The Jewell AR trigger is poorly designed and made. They make a great bolt gun trigger (if you like a single stage). </div></div>

Lol, Gisselles are awesome triggers.

I think a 2 stage is the only way to get a good trigger in an AR style rifle.

-dan
 
#27
Re: Creep on a trigger- am I crazy?

Been dryfiring a lot lately. I actually took a little post it note, did some ratio math and drew a black dot in the middle to match the black of a highpower target (~ 6.5 MOA). It's great, I can stick it at standing, sitting, and prone heights on my wall, and dryfire effectively till the cows come home. Very helpful.

I think we're talking about different things though- I didn't mess with overtravel, this is a lighter sear engagement leading to a more "rolling" break. Unless you just meant that in addition to this, you also tried increasing overtravel.

And yes, I'm finding it to actually be quite nice. It's rather subtle, but gives it a smooth, rolling motion with even more predictability for breaking than when it was crisp. I also dryfire my M1A and 700, which have "glass rods", so I can compare side by side. Different feel, I'll keep playing with it.
 
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