Custom Sizing Die

[GunnyUSMC]

I am trying to step up my game for precision long range. I have had pretty good results from my reloading but want to explore ways to make it even beter. One of my first thoughts was to have a custom sizing die made but not sure how to go about that.

Would i just fire 5-10 rounds using new brass and send them to someone to have a custom sizing die made?

If this is not off base, should i do that with normal loads or hot loads?

Looking for advice and pointers of who can make the custom die.

 

[Maurygold]

Send 3 pieces of fired brass to whidden. Wait 3 months. They are awesome and I have several.

The whidden and sac factory dies are also very good if you don’t want to wait. But whidden does great work on custom if that’s what you want.

Hot load or not wont expand brass beyond the chambering so either one.

 

[memilanuk]

It takes more than one firing for the brass to be really well formed to the chamber***. I'd say take 5 pieces, and fire them at least three times with moderately stout loads. They don't need to be 'hot' but not starting loads either. Size them as minimally as you can get away with - a neck-only die would actually be ideal for the job, but just backing off your existing F/L die should work - assuming it doesn't do anything weird like squeeze (vs bump) the shoulder excessively. Uncommon, but it does happen.

Whidden is out of the custom die business. Not a ton of options out there. Hornady. Neil Jones. Harrell, if you're shooting something smallish and 6mm (PPC, BR, etc.). Warner, if you have a big enough press / deep enough pockets. I *think* Cortina might do one-off custom if you ask - I don't think they currently advertise it.

The current crop of premium / boutique dies from Cortina, BC Micron, SAC, 419, Whidden, Wilson, etc. are all pretty good compared to the off-the-shelf big brand dies of yesteryear. You might be able to find what you want - something that fits your brass from your chamber well - with one of those. But you may have to go thru a few, buying and selling, to find the right one. Still might be faster than getting a true custom die made, and it won't be a 'white elephant' that you can't sell later.

*** the couple of custom dies I've had done were... disappointing. Most likely the result of less than fully formed brass, giving fitment issues down the road.

 

[memilanuk]

Another consideration on getting a custom die made, and whether it's worth it... is do you have your own chamber reamer? If not, there's really no guarantee that the next chamber will necessarily be cut with the same exact spec of reamer as the one you have now. Meaning that your custom die may very well *not* fit the brass coming out of the new chamber... in which case you get to have *another* custom die made.

For some sports - like BR, and possibly the upper tiers of F-Open, that's part of the unspoken cost of admission. New barrel, with some little tweak or mod to the reamer = new sizing die to match. I shoot primarily F/TR (.308 Win), and have one of the first handful of reamers made for the 2013 US FTR team chamber. I've had more than a few barrels done with that particular reamer, and it's got plenty of life left in it. And I still get a pretty damn good fit from off-the-shelf 'premium' dies. Some better than others. I am considering having another custom die made, just because. Possibly Neil Jones, or maybe Cortina. I'm on the fence, because I'm not entirely convinced that 2-3x the cost of the L.E. Wilson die I'm using right now will get me a noticeable improvement on target.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Thanks for all the insight. It is giving me lots to think about

What are you thoughts of using the Forster Shoulder Bump w/o full length resize? How close do you think i would get to getting a similar result someone is attempting to achieve with a custom FL sizing die?

 

[Maurygold]

Thanks for all the insight. It is giving me lots to think about

What are you thoughts of using the Forster Shoulder Bump w/o full length resize? How close do you think i would get to getting a similar result someone is attempting to achieve with a custom FL sizing die?

You need to size. Everyone is fl sizing today (other than 1% of some benchrest). Just buy a whidden or sac full length - you’re about to start overthinking things

 

[Taylorbok]

Whidden is no longer doing custom dies, I've got a few from them and have been very happy.
There's a few out there now that will make custom dies
CH4D, Neil Jones or Hornady. (might be others also)

If you're gonna send brass it should be 3x fired with only neck size in between. Standard load.

As mentioned a custom die isn't going to be a huge benefit.

 

[memilanuk]

Mmm... I'd give it a qualified 'maybe'.

In the distant past, I spent some time messing around with a Redding body die (sizes the body and shoulder) combined with a Lee Collet die - back when 'neck-only' sizing was still a thing It worked better than you might think... but doing it all on a single stage press was more than a little tedious, and the LCD had it's own set of quirks that 'ate' more than a few pieces of carefully groomed and prepped Lapua brass

I want to say that I *think* I had one of those Forster shoulder bump dies for a while. I'm pretty sure one of my team mates - John Weil (Team Savage FTR, back when) used it at one point, which was what enticed me to try it. I honestly don't remember anything about it one way or another, other than a) I sold it and moved on, long ago and b) nobody I know actually uses one. Or if they do, they're keeping it really close to the vest

On the surface, though... they sure *sound* like they should do what they say... the question being whether you *really* want your brass to be that closely formed to the chamber, or not. Even for BR/F-class, which are relatively 'clean' environments (individual ranges/matches where you get sand or rain blowing in the chamber aside), you generally want *some* clearance around the loaded round to allow easy chambering so as to not disturbed the gun in the bags. One could argue that would be even more of a concern in field type conditions I.e. PRS/NRL, hunting, etc. where a round that is a little too snug when closing the bolt can move you waaaay off your point of aim and cost you time/points getting back on target.

The one other thing about Forster bushing dies is... they don't use the standard Wilson/Redding 0.500 x 0.375 bushings. So if you're heavily invested in those already, you'll have to buy all new bushings to work with the new die. That might have been what killed the deal for me, back when. Nowadays... people are a lot less shy about spending $$$ on dies, etc. so maybe less of an issue. And of course, dies like the ones from Cortina, SAC, Neil Jones, WTC, etc. come with neck/shoulder bushings, so you'd be buying new bushings *anyways*...

 

[GunnyUSMC]

So for a little more context....

I have a 300PRC that I love and this is the first rifle/cartridge I was considering for a custom FL sizing die. I swapped my barrel (went from a 1:9 to 1:8 twist) and discovered that the shoulder setback for the new chamber is appx .003 shorter than the previous barrel (2.132 vs 2.1285"). I am in the process of purchasing new brass instead of reloading the older brass sized for the previous barrel. My current FL sizing die for the 300PRC is from LE Wilson.

I also have a 338 Edge being built for my daughter. For that rifle/cartridge, I do have a Whidden FL sizing die and ADG brass. If my load improvements for the 300PRC were significant enough, I was considering doing the same in regards to a custom FL sizing die. I havent yet received the rifle and therefore have not loaded for it yet.

Both of these guns are being used for ELR Light Class. If I ever hope to get competitive enough to make it to King of One Mile, one of my most important improvements needs to be not just accuracy but moreso around consistency... gotta get my ES below 10.

Sounds like the Whidden die is amongst the best available (without going custom) and a custom die probably would not give me the bang for the buck.

Thoughts?

 

[Taylorbok]

I'd skip the custom die. IMO the only real need for custom die is a wildcat/ improved cases.

I'd also push that shoulder back on the existing brass and use it but that's up to you.

I've been considering building a 338 Edge for Light class.

 

[memilanuk]

Well... based on the ones I've used, the Whidden might size the base a tiny bit more than the Wilson. Both barely the shoulder diameter. I kinda like the Wilson a little bit better, but how much of that is that it's the (for me) new shiny thing, or that they're made about 2 miles from my house... dunno. Either are great, in my opinion, but if I were buying new I'd probably (right now) lean towards the Wilson.

 

[memilanuk]

in the process of purchasing new brass instead of reloading the older brass sized for the previous barrel.

Just curious... why?

 

[secondofangle2]

custom sizing die (I have 2 from WTC, in total cost me over $4000) is not going to "up your game" it's only going to empty your wallet. I did it only because 375CT and RWS 50BMG brass can be hard to come by, and I want mine to last as long as possible.

You DEF want your own reamer if you're going to get an expensive die built for your chamber (I did this).

Finally, and most importantly - there are so many other things to spend your $$$ on to up your reloading or your shooting game. A lot of it you may already have. I'm thinking:

AMP
Giraud
IP trickler & FX scale
Garmin
better trigger (TT diamond) or bipod (EI Revolution)
better glass
suppressor
more practice ammo

Of all the things to spend $ on, custom die or fancy press gives the least bang for buck, I think.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Just curious... why?

In all honesty, in a previous thread (cant remember exactly which one) it was recommended that when moving to a new barrel, it is best to start with fresh brass. I believe the reasoning was that, especially in this case where my old chamber was .003 longer than my new barrel and there was some question as to whether or not the old brass would size down and hold it (e.g. bounce back).

I did purchase new brass but i also resized my old brass. The old brass had been fired 3 times in the old barrel. When resizing, i found that if i hold each case in the sizing die for about 10 seconds, it seemed to reduce bounce back and the cases did measure almost perfectly afterwards.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Finally, and most importantly - there are so many other things to spend your $$$ on to up your reloading or your shooting game. A lot of it you may already have. I'm thinking:

AMP
Giraud
IP trickler & FX scale
Garmin
better trigger (TT diamond) or bipod (EI Revolution)
better glass
suppressor
more practice ammo

Of all the things to spend $ on, custom die or fancy press gives the least bang for buck, I think.

Thanks and totally agree.

I do anneal but not with the AMP. That is on my wishlist. The Giraud is on my list as well but for now, i am using the LE Wilson hand trimmer and it works pretty well. Only other thing missing from that list is a suppressor.

I have gotten into neck turning but not sure that is giving me the performance increase i had hoped for. Going forward, i am just going to focus on getting top of the line brass and leave the necks alone.

 

[secondofangle2]

Neck turning is purely a benchrest technique, for guns with custom chambers and tight necks

 

[CK1.0]

IMO, expensive dies are straight-up snake oil.

Guys would pay ~$400 for a shell holder if A419/SAC started making them and told them they were 1% better than the $5 shell holder they already have (and which works fine). Then Warner/WTC would come along and charge $1000.

Maybe just turn a ~$100 FL die into a ~$126 custom die by ordering a custom-honed FL die from Forster, beyond that, you're wasting your time and money.

I agree with @secondofangle2, there is other stuff that is so much more important/impactful.

Custom Machining Service – Forster Products

Custom Machining to Your Specifications Allow 3-4 weeks delivery for Collets, Neck Reamers, Outside Neck Turner Pilots; 2 weeks for Case Trimmer pilots. Case Tr

www.forsterproducts.com

 

[sinister]

Alan Warner made my custom sizing die with two fired cases from my Sako TRG-42.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Whidden is out of the custom die business.

When did that happen??? They were my go-to!

 

[memilanuk]

When did that happen??? They were my go-to!

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/whidden-custom-dies-looks-like-they-may-discontinue-offering-them.4133262/post-39031364

 

[Rocketmandb]

Just curious... why?

You can end up with different chamber sizes, and if your new chamber is slightly smaller than the old, you'll get stuck cases. And no, owning your own reamer won't guarantee you don't get different sized chamber. It's as much about how the lathe is set up as it is the actual reamer. Ask me how I know... and how to get the cases out.

This is the main reason I have a custom die for my 300 PRC.

 

[Rocketmandb]

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/whidden-custom-dies-looks-like-they-may-discontinue-offering-them.4133262/post-39031364

Boooooo!

 

[memilanuk]

You can end up with different chamber sizes, and if your new chamber is slightly smaller than the old, you'll get stuck cases.

Guess I was laboring under the assumption he'd be smart enough to test fit *one*, and then size the rest accordingly.

And no, owning your own reamer won't guarantee you don't get different sized chamber.

I'd say it *greatly* reduces the odds. Nothing is foolproof, though.

I've done a bit of wrestling with cases from one chamber into another. Never managed to get a case actually stuck in the chamber, despite doing various things that probably *should* have.

I'm actually kinda of two minds about the whole "new barrel, new brass" (done it many times) vs. working with brass that doesn't need to be prepped (again) and that is done moving around other than what you do to it in terms of (re)sizing. Only three firings on the previous brass seems awful early to be pitching them and starting over. To each their own, I guess.

 

[Alan Warner]

custom sizing die (I have 2 from WTC, in total cost me over $4000) is not going to "up your game" it's only going to empty your wallet. I did it only because 375CT and RWS 50BMG brass can be hard to come by, and I want mine to last as long as possible.

You DEF want your own reamer if you're going to get an expensive die built for your chamber (I did this).

Finally, and most importantly - there are so many other things to spend your $$$ on to up your reloading or your shooting game. A lot of it you may already have. I'm thinking:

AMP
Giraud
IP trickler & FX scale
Garmin
better trigger (TT diamond) or bipod (EI Revolution)
better glass
suppressor
more practice ammo

Of all the things to spend $ on, custom die or fancy press gives the least bang for buck, I think.

I'd like you to itemize how you got 4g in two of our dies. The 2 you refer to are around 1500 total. A shell holder for the mag series is 55. You would need 5 or six extra top inserts for both to even approach a total of 4 grand.
Prove it or I call bull shit.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'd like you to itemize how you got 4g in two of our dies. The 2 you refer to are around 1500 total. A shell holder for the mag series is 55. You would need 5 or six extra top inserts for both to even approach a total of 4 grand.
Prove it or I call bull shit.

I can certainly confirm - you made me an arbor seater for my 37XC for $750 - though I'd call it more a work of art, than a seating die

 

[Alan Warner]

Paetvof the I can certainly confirm - you made me an arbor seater for my 37XC for $750 - though I'd call it more a work of art, than a seating die

The seater is NOT part of the dies you refer to in your post. Even adding that does not approach 4 grand. Next time, buy some other brand. I don't think anyone held a gun to your head and forced you to buy ours.
Adding a second seater for the other you have still would not total 4 grand.
Go be poor somewhere else and vote for the fence post.

 

[Alan Warner]

I can certainly confirm - you made me an arbor seater for my 37XC for $750 - though I'd call it more a work of art, than a seating die

While we are at it, send me a pm with your real name so I can add it to my ass hat list of those I won't do work for.

 

[vh20]

While we are at it, send me a pm with your real name so I can add it to my ass hat list of those I won't do work for.

He's not the guy that said he spent 4K. It was a different poster. Look at who you quoted initially - different guy. The second guy you quoted was confirming it would not be 4K.

 

[Alan Warner]

He's not the guy that said he spent 4K. It was a different poster. Look at who you quoted initially - different guy. The second guy you quoted was confirming it would not be 4K.

My bad

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'm actually kinda of two minds about the whole "new barrel, new brass" (done it many times) vs. working with brass that doesn't need to be prepped (again) and that is done moving around other than what you do to it in terms of (re)sizing.

I was not a "new barrel, new brass" guy until:

1) My smith got a new lathe and changed his process at the same time. The combo made the whole thing a lot more lined up, which meant the chamber was more true to form and smaller (less wobble with the spinning barrel) . The first rebarrel I did after that was such that I couldn't chamber the previous cases without sizing, and the first one I fired (after sizing, obviously) got stuck - similar to what happens sometimes when you buy once-fired brass.

2) I watched what he does in his new process to ensure barrel and reamer are perfectly aligned. All it takes is just doing that slightly differently one barrel to another and you'll have a different sized chamber.

 

[memilanuk]

Not trying to be harsh... but if you got that much variability from someone doing custom barrel work... I hope the price was very 'right'. Sounds like his process before left something to be desired. I can see how that would leave an imprint on a fellow, but I'm not sure if I'd extend the solution (new brass) to your problem (your gunsmith) to everyone else's situation.

I had some similar go-arounds back when I was on a factory-sponsored team, and we were still using their barrels. There were plenty of other issues that came up, and I swear at times it was like we were having to teach their production engineers what a 'good' barrel (or chamber) was supposed to look like... but along the way, during one component shortage or another, I learned the hard way about the difference a bit of run-out could do to the base of the chamber, and what a 'ring' die was good for

Since then, I've been a little more selective about whether I need to start over with new brass or not. There's other variables as well... is 'new brass' one box, or 5-10? How much prep/sorting are you doing? Can you at least still use the 'old brass' for a practice barrel or in a backup gun? How much work is it going to take to move those existing cases to the new barrel? One pass thru a F/L sizer? A small base sizer. A ring die? Something else? Those all change the 'calculus', at least for me

 

[Rocketmandb]

Not trying to be harsh... but if you got that much variability from someone doing custom barrel work... I hope the price was very 'right'. Sounds like his process before left something to be desired.

Actually, his processes were in line or better than most others on the previous barrel. With the new lathe/process the chamber was actually undersized compared to the previous one and others because it was too close to perfect, if there is such a thing. And this was with my Manson reamer on both.

This also bore out on my 308 that he just rebarreled. I had purchased a barreled action from a commercial prefit company and the barrel was full of slop in the tenon and chamber. New one is much tighter (and it shoots better).

I still save all my old brass, but when I get a new barrel, I use new brass to break it in, and once it's sped up, I've got newish formed brass to use. Also note, that most my shooting is ELR or ELR'ish. I don't need hundreds of pieces of brass available. I will typically have 150-200 all prepped, give or take, to get me through a barrel, depending on the cartridge.