Cutting Edge 22 ELR ammo
- Thread starter FuddLuck
- Start date
It looks very intriguing. I don't see how they can make it affordable though. I'm sure some guys would pay any price if it outperforms everyone else, but would there be enough of those guys to keep them in business?
This thread is such a letdown... I thought YOU had info so I came barreling in here all jazzed up! Haha
Probably not but they will have to devote man power and machines to making it. I just wonder if it would be profitable to continue manufacturing it.
I found this update online:
22LR UPDATE
News
Updates on our 22LR project
As many of you know, this year we made the announcement at SHOT show that for 2020, we would be working on a 22lr ammo project using our solid copper, monolithic bullets. We have been receiving a lot of messages in regards to our progress in this project, so we wanted to take the time to make an update.
Our testing with our 32gr bullet showed us that high quality, premium brass is an essential component in producing consistent velocities. When testing with readily available brass, we were only able to obtain velocity consistency of 50-100fps, making it impossible to get good groups especially at longer ranges. When we switched to using a more premium brass, the consistency and accuracy greatly improved, with velocity consistency of 10-30fps ES.
The trouble we are running into is the availability of this premium brass. 22lr components are in high demand, and brass manufacturers are at maximum capacity leaving us with no brass to offer.
Pulling lead bullets from premium loaded ammo is also not an option since doing so does not remove the crimp. Another reason this doesn’t work is because our bullets are light in comparison to lead core bullets, therefore they require a different charge than lead core bullets to get good accuracy.
We currently have our Patent Pending 32gr bullet for standard twist rifles finalized, and the dies/components we designed are currently in the last stages of production. We are also in the process of finalizing the heavier weight bullets for faster twist rates.
Our initial plan was to sell reloading kits which would include the dies, shell holder, bullets, and brass. Because of the inability to get brass, we are now selling each of these items separately without the brass. They will be available on our website within the next couple of weeks. As soon as they are available, we will make an announcement.
Join our email list for exclusive updates by clicking this link: http://eepurl.com/bp0Qrf
Thank you so much for your patience!
22LR UPDATE
News
Updates on our 22LR project
As many of you know, this year we made the announcement at SHOT show that for 2020, we would be working on a 22lr ammo project using our solid copper, monolithic bullets. We have been receiving a lot of messages in regards to our progress in this project, so we wanted to take the time to make an update.
Our testing with our 32gr bullet showed us that high quality, premium brass is an essential component in producing consistent velocities. When testing with readily available brass, we were only able to obtain velocity consistency of 50-100fps, making it impossible to get good groups especially at longer ranges. When we switched to using a more premium brass, the consistency and accuracy greatly improved, with velocity consistency of 10-30fps ES.
The trouble we are running into is the availability of this premium brass. 22lr components are in high demand, and brass manufacturers are at maximum capacity leaving us with no brass to offer.
Pulling lead bullets from premium loaded ammo is also not an option since doing so does not remove the crimp. Another reason this doesn’t work is because our bullets are light in comparison to lead core bullets, therefore they require a different charge than lead core bullets to get good accuracy.
We currently have our Patent Pending 32gr bullet for standard twist rifles finalized, and the dies/components we designed are currently in the last stages of production. We are also in the process of finalizing the heavier weight bullets for faster twist rates.
Our initial plan was to sell reloading kits which would include the dies, shell holder, bullets, and brass. Because of the inability to get brass, we are now selling each of these items separately without the brass. They will be available on our website within the next couple of weeks. As soon as they are available, we will make an announcement.
Join our email list for exclusive updates by clicking this link: http://eepurl.com/bp0Qrf
Thank you so much for your patience!
No 22LR shell holders for the 550 or powder funnels for the Green Beast. WTF is a boy to do, use a single stage press?
OK so I did a little homework. Please educate me on this: If CE is attempting to source .22LR brass, it by definition would be primed brass, as the primer for this cartridge is embedded in the case rim during the manufacturing process. Right? or, are they doing something completely different?
MV variability in this cartridge, and hence vertical dispersion, is influenced - among other things - by primer weight variability and the associated rim thickness, which of course is not always consistent from lot to lot in production. Nailing this variable, by lot testing, and then purchasing as much of a good lot as one can afford, is what many RF shooters do, including me.
So my question is, since I believe CE is attempting to source primed .22LR brass, for it's own manufactured ammo, and for resale to people who want to DIY, there is going to be lot-to-lot variability. Fact of life, no?
Not trying to be a dick. I think CE is onto something with a high BC/HV .22LR bullet/cartridge. But sourcing consistently primed brass is going to be a challenge, but maybe I am missing something - it happens often....
if they can get lot to lot consistency like we see with brands like lapua and eley then it should be more than capable
add stuff like the tuner boom
The dimple as noted was supposedly used to more evenly disperse the primer compound. The dimple was also previously used by the Russians with their OLYMP ammunition, which was arguably some of the finest ever made - even though it was hand loaded.
The dimple was "eliminated" due to Federal ending UM production. They later relaunched another version of Ultra Match that was actually loaded by RWS in Germany under sub-contract.
If I recall correctly, the entire exercise was so the USA shooting teams could win the Olympics with USA manufactured ammo. I remember the gun rag articles. I recently found about 1/2 a box of the dimpled ammo in one of my storage boxes.
What muzzle velocities are being proposed?
Is it going to be a hi-v 22lr?
If so, at what distance downrange is it going to go transonic?
With the short stubby round nose 22lr, transition has minimal effect on accuracy...cartridge quality will have more effect on results.
Will a long slender needle nosed projectile remain stable, as the center of pressure shifts forward during transition?
For example: the 17hm2, based on the 22lr brass, shows less than desirable spread at 100 yards and keyholing at 200 yards.
Is it going to be a hi-v 22lr?
If so, at what distance downrange is it going to go transonic?
With the short stubby round nose 22lr, transition has minimal effect on accuracy...cartridge quality will have more effect on results.
Will a long slender needle nosed projectile remain stable, as the center of pressure shifts forward during transition?
For example: the 17hm2, based on the 22lr brass, shows less than desirable spread at 100 yards and keyholing at 200 yards.
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The makers of top level .22LR match ammo put a lot of effort and closely guarded secrets into making it as good as it is. Even the best of Eley and Lapua is not necessarily ideal.
What are the odds that Cutting Edge can come close to producing consistency similar to Eley or Lapua with outsourced primed brass? How much can MV be increased within the limits of the .22LR casing? Will Cutting Edge .22LR ammo with a better BC be a sufficient trade off if it's less consistent than current match ammo?
Looks like they are releasing their does and reloading component sets this month or February.
cuttingedgebullets.com
New Solid Copper 22lr Bullets
Solid copper, monolithic lead-free 22lr bullets
like most solids, you need a barrel with a faster twist to stabilize them at low velocities. See their ad below. 1:9 twist or faster.What muzzle velocities are being proposed?
Is it going to be a hi-v 22lr?
If so, at what distance downrange is it going to go transonic?
With the short stubby round nose 22lr, transition has minimal effect on accuracy...cartridge quality will have more effect on results.
Will a long slender needle nosed projectile remain stable, as the center of pressure shifts forward during transition?
For example: the 17hm2, based on the 22lr brass, shows less than desirable spread at 100 yards and keyholing at 200 yards.
Looks like they are releasing their does and reloading component sets this month or February.
New Solid Copper 22lr Bullets
Solid copper, monolithic lead-free 22lr bullets
Happy New Year lash....
The 17 hm2 is a 1:9 twist. It doesn't help at extended range.
100 and 200 yard results aren't what you would want.
More than 4 inches of spread at 100 yards, keyholing and 14 inches spread at 200.
The 17 hm2 is a 1:9 twist. It doesn't help at extended range.
100 and 200 yard results aren't what you would want.
More than 4 inches of spread at 100 yards, keyholing and 14 inches spread at 200.
Happy New Year Justin.
I can only expect that Cutting Edge has done their research and know that their product works as we would want an ELR round to perform.
You probably know that @Geno C. on here has been working on a project very much like this for a while now. I think that in the next year or so the .22 RF ELR cartridge/wildcat(s) will come to fruition and there will be early adopters using it/them.
I can only expect that Cutting Edge has done their research and know that their product works as we would want an ELR round to perform.
You probably know that @Geno C. on here has been working on a project very much like this for a while now. I think that in the next year or so the .22 RF ELR cartridge/wildcat(s) will come to fruition and there will be early adopters using it/them.
Also, .22 caliber is 1/3 larger in diameter than .17 caliber. That’s a big difference when it comes to ballistics.
The CE bullet that they are allowing preorders for now is their 32gr. It’s designed to fit in a standard 22lr mag. .111g1 but they say it should run at or above 1400fps. They suggest using 3n37 powder I think.
This bullet isn’t in the same league as mine. They are supposed to be coming out with a larger bullet sometime in the future though.
This is my bullet. I currently can run it at 1250ish and brass holds up. I’m going to change barrel parameters and gain a little weight/bc and speed.
Mine will run out of a 17hmr/22wmr mag and had a .250g1 It’s not quite double what a standard 22lr is but getting up there.
This bullet isn’t in the same league as mine. They are supposed to be coming out with a larger bullet sometime in the future though.
This is my bullet. I currently can run it at 1250ish and brass holds up. I’m going to change barrel parameters and gain a little weight/bc and speed.
Mine will run out of a 17hmr/22wmr mag and had a .250g1 It’s not quite double what a standard 22lr is but getting up there.
For this first model you only need a 1:16 for this bullet.
In the future you will need the 1:9.
The 9 will only stabilize their 42gr. They have a heavier one that’s supposed to come out that will need a 1-6
The press release is for the 32gr. So yes, not the ELR projectile that people are looking forward to.
But if people purchase this current offering it’ll work in 1:16 twist.
Yeah. I’d have to run the numbers but I don’t see how a lighter bullet with a much lower bc is much of a step up from traditional ammo. I’m not knocking it, because i really am working towards advancing 22lr, but I didn’t try and make a short bullet for a reason.
What kind of rifling is being used for the 22LR barrels to shoot these new 22 solids, 5R? Or something else?
While the heavier pills will be a lot more interesting for 22 ELR (the subject of this thread), the 32gn pills from CE are very interesting for folks in states that have outlawed lead for hunting, since the existing non-lead 22lr ammo is barely good enough to be called crap.
While the heavier pills will be a lot more interesting for 22 ELR (the subject of this thread), the 32gn pills from CE are very interesting for folks in states that have outlawed lead for hunting, since the existing non-lead 22lr ammo is barely good enough to be called crap.
I don’t see their advantage being big up close. I could run the numbers though. This small bullet from cutting edge, I’m still trying to see the practical application, other than a lead free zones. With such a low weight and bc, I just done see it. .111g1 at 1400 My bullet is .250g1 and currently at 1240ish On paper, I’m 200moa flatter at 1000 than lapua CenterX. 200moa.
At 100 and in, I don’t see a huge advantage for the solids, even mine unless the wind is crazy.
At 100 and in, I don’t see a huge advantage for the solids, even mine unless the wind is crazy.
Main reason I’m asking about 100-350yds.
We run a prs/nrl style series out to about 350 yds.
What is a concern is if bullets like these (regardless if worth it) start becoming the norm for these matches, then the standard ammo price goes up substantially. One of the big draws to Rimfire prs over centerfire is the ammo savings.
Currently we have decided not to allow any solids and other such stuff in our matches until we have time to asses what the impact would be for the shooters.
That’s unfortunate that you’re not allowing these bullets. I think restricting ammo that fits in a 22lr but not rifles is kind of rediculous. And I didn’t design my bullet for 22prs stuff
What’s ridiculous is the cost of equipment in centerfire along with ammo prices.
In Rimfire you can still buy a $500 rifle and $10 worth of ammo and do just fine.
You start making the standard ammo cost $0.40/ea and you’re now treading towards the problems centerfire has. The minute someone starts winning Rimfire prs with these, that becomes the standard. Then we are well on our way to $1/rnd ammo.
That’s how you end up with only about 2500 people shooting between two organizations. We watched it happen with centerfire, and are attempting to prevent that in Rimfire.
Talking about rifles, the ammo is currently what keeps them close to level footing. You can only do so much with a 40gr lead going 1100 fps. Not to mention a rifle is generally a one time expense. A very large portion of the Rimfire community has $1k-$3k+ expendable income for a rifle and plenty for ammo a year. That becomes exponentially less appealing when you triple the cost of ammo.
If the goal was to do more, we’d be shooting .22mag or just doing centerfire.
And that’s not taking anything away from new .22 bullets. Everything has its place. ELR seems to be the place.
Not prs matches where you shoot 60-200rnds.
Not prs matches where you shoot 60-200rnds.
The CE video is pretty hysterical. Projectile Dysfunction.
I see it from both angles. Some want to keep costs down, some want to push the limits. I do like that a guy can compete with a RPR against a Vudoo and still hold their own. I don’t see these being a big advantage at the distances you’re shooting in these matches. But is a guy spending $70 on ammo for a 100 round match, really breaking the bank compared to a guy that spends $20? All things considered, I think that’s pretty small. Shooting sports are expensive.
Yea, I do as well. We will probably create a “pro open” division where you can use $20/rnd ammo if you wanted to.
I don’t want to stifle new things. Just have to keep the ponds separated a bit from the 80% and 20%.
And was curious if there was any real advantage inside of PRS range. I’ll be pre-ordering these to check out and have a rifle built around yours or others for ELR.
- Nov 3, 2010
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So ammo budgets come into play but not rifle budgets? Dudes running 3k rimfire rifles all day, but up the ammo cost some and it changes the world? I’m confused on what is and isn’t acceptable.
If you were to send the CF bullet out at 1050 it would have less wind drift out to 3-350. Wind drift and constancy is what matters.
For your bullet what weight approx is it? 1250 will be great for ELR but once again for NRL/PRS in the 1050-1080 would be the best for wind.
We just had the reloaded copper bullet discussion for our series in canada. Will it help the top guys? Maybe but the biggest issue is all the people who are scared to lose. It doesnt matter if something helps or not statistically its all in the perception of it. E.g. 2 out of the top 3 were shooting CZ this year but people have issues with being in the same division as Vudoo etc.
It was decided to not allow the reloaded ammo and see how things shake down. Maybe another division? It is great so see people working and experimenting with the 22lr to improve it as I think the 22 is one of the keys to growing sports shooting.
The 3k rifle doesnt help them like people think. Very little in fact. If we can get more consistent ammo that may help but also not as much as some people think with positional shooting. Less wind drift definitely will help.
