I'm not 100% sure, I did not specify anything special, so I am assuming they are .217-.222
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Cutting Edge 22 ELR ammo
- Thread starter FuddLuck
- Start date
I know what the bulge is from. I’ve just not seen it in my testing with the RimX. I’ve blown my fair share of cases so far too lol
Have you used CCI brass? Maybe it is softer? Or maybe I just got lucky and could have had more cases blow.
I'm going to run some lighter charges, presumably that will make the bulge smaller or go away.
I'm going to run some lighter charges, presumably that will make the bulge smaller or go away.
This is my very first 5 loaded rounds. I used 20/28 for the powder charge 2.0gr. Shot from my Vudoo 16” barrel. Had the suppressor on and rounds had a little crack, so while I don’t have any MV yet, I’m guessing supersonic. This was shot at 30yds.
I found the loading process a bit tedious due to size of it all, but not impossible. Will this replace factory match ammo? I doubt it. But my world! Whoever thought we would one day be reloading .22 rounds. I consider it a neat little distraction from the day to day world of poo.
I found the loading process a bit tedious due to size of it all, but not impossible. Will this replace factory match ammo? I doubt it. But my world! Whoever thought we would one day be reloading .22 rounds. I consider it a neat little distraction from the day to day world of poo.
After 50 rounds of the CE, there is a visible copper coating on the lands. I have shot both lead and CE rounds through this barrel, and it was not cleaned before starting with the CE rounds. It appears there was an increase in pressure between the first 25 CE rounds and the second; the brass ruptured with .1gn less powder than the first time.
Should I be limiting this barrel to just copper for testing? I do see that CE says that pressures will be higher if the barrel is fouled with lead rounds, but they used lead fouled barrels for the powder testing they published. Ideally, I would like to be able to shoot both without having to clean in between.
I also wonder if there needs to be some effort to check the results of lubricants, although I think Geno has said he does not use a lubricant with the Badlands Precision bullets. I don't know whether the copper alloys used are the same or very different.
So many variables to think about . . . .
Should I be limiting this barrel to just copper for testing? I do see that CE says that pressures will be higher if the barrel is fouled with lead rounds, but they used lead fouled barrels for the powder testing they published. Ideally, I would like to be able to shoot both without having to clean in between.
I also wonder if there needs to be some effort to check the results of lubricants, although I think Geno has said he does not use a lubricant with the Badlands Precision bullets. I don't know whether the copper alloys used are the same or very different.
So many variables to think about . . . .
I finally got some velocity data today:
Using VV3n37, brass trimmed to .571-.573, OAL .952-.956
5 shot groups; RimX action in a hunting stock, 20 inch Bartlein barrel.
Charge FPS SD
2.1gn 1189 27
2.2gn 1286 44
2.3gn 1391 24
2.4gn 1433 20
2.5gn 1514 5
I think the low SD on the 2.5gn load was either a fluke or a result of the speed being close to maxed out. It was a windy day, and I was shooting at 100yds, so groups were not great. Vertical spread was right around 1 inch for 4 of the 5 groups, horizontal spread ranged from 1.2 inches (below) to just over 3 inches (windy). This was the best group:
While this is not competition worthy, it is very promising. Unfortunately, I have to trim the brass in order to reduce the OAL enough get the rounds to chamber w/o excessive jamming. My chamber is obviously not optimized for the CE rounds.
BTW, CE is shipping the heavier CuRX bullets now. I have some of the 40gn and 50gn but am waiting on a fast twist barrel, so they will sit around for a while before they get used.
Using VV3n37, brass trimmed to .571-.573, OAL .952-.956
5 shot groups; RimX action in a hunting stock, 20 inch Bartlein barrel.
Charge FPS SD
2.1gn 1189 27
2.2gn 1286 44
2.3gn 1391 24
2.4gn 1433 20
2.5gn 1514 5
I think the low SD on the 2.5gn load was either a fluke or a result of the speed being close to maxed out. It was a windy day, and I was shooting at 100yds, so groups were not great. Vertical spread was right around 1 inch for 4 of the 5 groups, horizontal spread ranged from 1.2 inches (below) to just over 3 inches (windy). This was the best group:
While this is not competition worthy, it is very promising. Unfortunately, I have to trim the brass in order to reduce the OAL enough get the rounds to chamber w/o excessive jamming. My chamber is obviously not optimized for the CE rounds.
BTW, CE is shipping the heavier CuRX bullets now. I have some of the 40gn and 50gn but am waiting on a fast twist barrel, so they will sit around for a while before they get used.
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If you look at the picture I posted in post #147 for 2.5gn load, it’s pretty much the same as that. For this last round, I cleaned the barrel and did not foul with lead bullets. I think it may have lowered the pressure slightly, but from 2.3 to 2.5 there are definitely pressure signs. This is with 3N37; I think I may try Longshot next.
Some Longshot data:
Brass trimmed to .571-.573, OAL .952-.956
5 shot groups; RimX action in a hunting stock, 20 inch Bartlein 1:16 barrel.
Charge FPS SD
2.2 --- 1419 14
2.3 --- 1477 16
2.4 --- 1534 25
2.5 --- 1594 10
2.6 --- 1654 17
More speed, lower SDs. Unfortunately, Longshot doesn't trickle as smoothly as the 3N37, but it wasn't too bad. 4 of the groups ranged from 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA, with 1 group at 2.6MOA (might have been wind).
I am also starting to think that the CE crimp die is not useful. Most bullets seat tight, but some are loose enough to put in/take out with your fingers. Running it through the crimp die doesn't seem to make much difference. Anecdotally, the ones that are loose seem to have slightly slower speeds, but I have not tracked enough of these to be certain about that.
I think I will try sizing the brass slightly to get more consistency and skip the crimp die.
Brass trimmed to .571-.573, OAL .952-.956
5 shot groups; RimX action in a hunting stock, 20 inch Bartlein 1:16 barrel.
Charge FPS SD
2.2 --- 1419 14
2.3 --- 1477 16
2.4 --- 1534 25
2.5 --- 1594 10
2.6 --- 1654 17
More speed, lower SDs. Unfortunately, Longshot doesn't trickle as smoothly as the 3N37, but it wasn't too bad. 4 of the groups ranged from 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA, with 1 group at 2.6MOA (might have been wind).
I am also starting to think that the CE crimp die is not useful. Most bullets seat tight, but some are loose enough to put in/take out with your fingers. Running it through the crimp die doesn't seem to make much difference. Anecdotally, the ones that are loose seem to have slightly slower speeds, but I have not tracked enough of these to be certain about that.
I think I will try sizing the brass slightly to get more consistency and skip the crimp die.
These are all the 32gn bullet. I did not notice anything indicating a pressure spike; the Longshot loads showed the same kind of marks on the brass as the 3N37, maybe a bit more at the low end but did not rupture the case a 2.6 as the 3N37 did.
I'm not doing anything to maintain the powder column, other than trying to pour the powder the same way each time. My fingers are way to fat for anything more complicated. Honestly, loading these is way more primative than what I do for my centerfire rifles; the size of the case alone makes things a lot harder. I'm just starting to try to figure out how to get consistent neck tension, which I think is a bigger variable.
Having said that, the results so far are already much, much better than the commercially available lead free .22LR ammo, and definitely good enough for short range critter hunting, which is my main purpose for this particular bullet. And hopefully I'll learn enough to be able to get good results with the heavier bullets for shooting longer ranges.
I'm not doing anything to maintain the powder column, other than trying to pour the powder the same way each time. My fingers are way to fat for anything more complicated. Honestly, loading these is way more primative than what I do for my centerfire rifles; the size of the case alone makes things a lot harder. I'm just starting to try to figure out how to get consistent neck tension, which I think is a bigger variable.
Having said that, the results so far are already much, much better than the commercially available lead free .22LR ammo, and definitely good enough for short range critter hunting, which is my main purpose for this particular bullet. And hopefully I'll learn enough to be able to get good results with the heavier bullets for shooting longer ranges.
Is a bulging or ruptured casing the only way to know that there's too much pressure? Considering the CCI casings provided with CE bullets are not made to match ammo dimension standards, when such a result happens can it be at least partly a product of case head dimension inconsistency?
Consistent crimping is important for bullet pull, the force required to separate the bullet from the casing. Without consistency, performance will be affected.
It will be interesting to see how these bullets perform in terms of accuracy. A lot of reports on lead free .22LR ammo suggest that its accuracy level sets a very low bar.
Wolf hasnt been bad for testing while I was in load development. I'm pulling my GMB in the am. To start work on more load data.Contacted CE today they wont sell just brass, so I blue printed my bolt and firing pin today to CAD to shift it to center fire. Wont need to worry about brass anymore when I get the new bolt head and pin made.
The crimp die just doesn't work or doesn't seem to make a difference in this instance ?
A friend of mine and I were scheming on tweaking 22 mag ammo and we ended up just crimping factory ammo. He came up with a custom shell holder to go with a lee factory crimp die originally intended for 22 hornet.
It worked out better than we thought it would so I tried it on long rifle stuff. I got good results with the high velocity ammo but sv/subsonic ammo either got worse or had no effect at all. High velocity showed improvement every time.
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If I put bare brass in the crimp die, it definitely crimps. If I put loaded case in with a bullet that is loose enough to move by hand and try to crimp it, I can’t tell that it makes any difference. I think the copper is hard enough that the crimp is ineffective.
A few more data points.
I tried some Eley brass. The primer is pink instead of green. The brass sides are thinner and (I think) more uniform. I got slightly higher speeds on average using the Eley brass, so maybe the primer is a little hotter? And if anyone is wondering, it is really, really tedious to pull bullets to get .22 brass.
Overall results were maybe slightly better than the CCI brass but not so different that I could say I am sure. My best group of the day was using the Eley brass but was followed closely by a CCI group.. SDs were slightly better with the CCI brass, but close enough that I doubt it was statistically significant.
For purposes of hunting out to a max of 100 yards with these 32gn bullets, I don't think the benefit from the Eley brass is worth the extra effort. The result might be different for heavier bullets at longer ranges.
It does look like sizing to .222 performed better than sizing to .223, but that is mainly an observation for the CCI rounds, as the thinner walls of the Eley did not really get sized at .223. Both CCI and Eley brass held the bullets very firmly sized to .222.
Eley groups (5 shots, 50 yards, wind 3-7mph from ~9 o'clock)
CCI groups
Is anyone else doing development and getting data with the 32gn bullets?
I tried some Eley brass. The primer is pink instead of green. The brass sides are thinner and (I think) more uniform. I got slightly higher speeds on average using the Eley brass, so maybe the primer is a little hotter? And if anyone is wondering, it is really, really tedious to pull bullets to get .22 brass.
Overall results were maybe slightly better than the CCI brass but not so different that I could say I am sure. My best group of the day was using the Eley brass but was followed closely by a CCI group.. SDs were slightly better with the CCI brass, but close enough that I doubt it was statistically significant.
For purposes of hunting out to a max of 100 yards with these 32gn bullets, I don't think the benefit from the Eley brass is worth the extra effort. The result might be different for heavier bullets at longer ranges.
It does look like sizing to .222 performed better than sizing to .223, but that is mainly an observation for the CCI rounds, as the thinner walls of the Eley did not really get sized at .223. Both CCI and Eley brass held the bullets very firmly sized to .222.
Eley groups (5 shots, 50 yards, wind 3-7mph from ~9 o'clock)
CCI groups
Is anyone else doing development and getting data with the 32gn bullets?
Because of the profile of the CE bullet and my chamber, I need to shorten the brass to avoid an excessive jam. After trimming the brass, there is no crimp left. Before sizing, I can seat the bullets in the brass easily by hand.
Does anyone have thoughts on whether it might be worthwhile to try HBN for the CE copper bullets? I'm wondering if it could (a) reduce the SD/ES for velocity, or (b) have any value in reducing the copper accumulation on the lands. My experience with HBN is pretty limited.
I have tinkered a little bit with my 32gr bullets and N350 but haven’t gotten too far into it. I’m shooting these through a bergara B14r and just like acourvil, my chamber is super tight. If I leave the brass the factory overall length I have to really wrench down on the bolt to close it.
But for loads so far I have I have went from 1gr-2.4gr(cases blew out at this charge) and found a sweet spot at 2gr of n350 and 1450fps. Sd was great at 8. Haven’t gotten a chance to shoot some groups yet but will try this week. I would like to get another barrel and throat it a little deeper and see how these work.
But for loads so far I have I have went from 1gr-2.4gr(cases blew out at this charge) and found a sweet spot at 2gr of n350 and 1450fps. Sd was great at 8. Haven’t gotten a chance to shoot some groups yet but will try this week. I would like to get another barrel and throat it a little deeper and see how these work.
I recovered some bullets to check for land engagement and Here is some pictures between the B14r and the bxr. B41r on the left and bxr on the right. Kinda odd to see the diff in bore diameter between the two rifles. The bxr also has a looser chamber than the B14r.
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I did some tests with HBN coated bullets in a clean barrel. It definitely has some effects, not sure yet whether it is worth the trouble but some aspects do look promising. It definitely lowers the pressure; speeds are slightly slower and in at least one case a load that had previously ruptured the case now works without rupturing the case.
Here are 5 different loads at 50 yards on a windy day. Top left and bottom right are the same load; other than that, loads increase from left to right, top to bottom). 5 shot groups from a hard bench with bag and bipod. Group sizes ranged from .7 MOA to 1.8MOA, average velocities from 1380 to 1670, SDs from 11 to 21. The SDs were slightly better on average than what I was seeing without HBN, but at this point I have not shot enough to know whether that is random variation or a real benefit of the HBN.
It will be interesting to see the effect of the HBN on the heavier bullets, as I suspect it might be more significant than with the 32gn bullets. But that will wait until I have a fast twist barrel.
Here are 5 different loads at 50 yards on a windy day. Top left and bottom right are the same load; other than that, loads increase from left to right, top to bottom). 5 shot groups from a hard bench with bag and bipod. Group sizes ranged from .7 MOA to 1.8MOA, average velocities from 1380 to 1670, SDs from 11 to 21. The SDs were slightly better on average than what I was seeing without HBN, but at this point I have not shot enough to know whether that is random variation or a real benefit of the HBN.
It will be interesting to see the effect of the HBN on the heavier bullets, as I suspect it might be more significant than with the 32gn bullets. But that will wait until I have a fast twist barrel.
What resu did you have with crimping 22 mag factory rounds? Guy in Australia did that, observed significant velocity increase, SD decrease. Also, you modified a 22 hornet die for the crimping?
I started at .001" and crimped up to .006" I think. Where it worked best for me was .004"
I noticed the same things as the guy in Australia. Increase in velocity, and decrease in sd. Most of my testing was with the hornady 33gr vmax load in a fedderson barreled 10/22 magnum. At .004" crimp it shot consistently in the .003" range at 50 yards. That was good enough for me so I crimped the remainder of that lot and really haven't messed with it anymore.
And yes, I used a standard lee 22 hornet factory rimp die with a custom shell holder I made. Basically just elevates the 22mag round to the correct location to be crimped. I used to have a pic of the results but I guess I deleted it. There was a substantial increase in velocity. Worth the trouble for me.
