I have been listening to The Everyday Sniper and heard Frank talk about going "lighter and faster". I'm considering going with Cutting Edge Bullets but not sure if I should go the 120 or 130 MTH or possibly 133 Mag Feed MTAC. I also seem to be having an issue finding much for data as well. Any help figuring it out would be great. I have already tried out the Berger 130 and 140 Hybrids with ok results, I only had 10 of each to try as I got them as samples from Berger.
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Cutting Edge Bullets for 6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter laertes88
- Start date
Warner Tool has a lot of load data on the Flatlines. Maybe give them a try?
I tried the 130's in my 6.5 creedmoor and imo, they were jut an expensive headache. Not sure about the 120's but as I started to compress with the 130's (at relatively low charge weights) the bullets would just stick in my die. Tried more neck tension, drop tube, vibrating the case, and more chamfer with no help.
Cutting edge will send you QL data at your request but they're running them slow. Around 2650 or so n a 26" barrel if I remember.
Cutting edge will send you QL data at your request but they're running them slow. Around 2650 or so n a 26" barrel if I remember.
It's not exactly what you're looking for, but g9 has a 113gr .264 lathe turned solid. I've only shot a couple to see what speed I could get, never shot them for groups. Mile High had them on sale and it worked out to around $0.55ea.
I was using Scott Saterlee's 10 round load development. They seemed to hit in the area of my POA but the velocities seemed to jump around. Haven't had the chance to get out and buy more and try them out yet since I'm in the process of buying a house. I went to the Great American Outdoor show in Harrisburg PA and spoke with Cutting Edge and was rather impressed with the fact that the MTH and MTAC are almost completely interchangeable without changing the load.
If you plan on using lathe turn bullets, you may need to get your chamber cut specifically for them, or your bullets may have a huge jump to the lands.
Just something to consider. They may not work well out of a standard chamber.
Just something to consider. They may not work well out of a standard chamber.
There are a couple other threads on this topic. I was unable to get them to work right. As Kthomas mentioned my chamber isn't right for them. The jump was too much. The Warner folks are friendly and helpful. If you have questions they will answer them. I have been unable to find data on an accurate load. Frank's video talks about it a bit. The Warner folks said people were having good luck with CFE223. They STRONGLY advised me to work up carefully. You might want to see if you can get a sample and measure with a Stoney Point or Hornady gauge. If you can't get a sample PM me with your address, I will mail you one. Mine aren't doing me much good.
EDIT** I am not dumping on Warner. They make a great product. That bullet did not work for me. Other people are getting great results.
EDIT** I am not dumping on Warner. They make a great product. That bullet did not work for me. Other people are getting great results.
I'm currently thinking of trying the Lehigh 121 solids. They say they're specific for the Creedmore. At $36/100 they're not really expensive either.
Wow, just looked and you're right. Not a bad price at all. Just not finding any load data for them. I see that there is data for the 122 gr. controlled chaos which might be interchangeable. I'll have to contact them tomorrow and find out.
I was asking for fist hand experience with solids on steel in another thread. The splash is supposed to be harder to see than lead bullets. I made the step down weight wise from Berger 140vlds to JLK 130s. I've been thinking of stepping down one more step in weight and that should put me at about the speed limit of most steel matches. If I might loose points because they can't see my impacts as well I might not do that though.
I've only put maybe 110 rounds through the barrel of my Creedmoor. I honestly haven't been sold on anything other then the Hornady Precision Hunters that I got a 1/2" group at 100 yrds with whilst sighting in the scope. I've only tried some options from Berger so far as far as load development though. Once I get moved into my house I will be looking at purchasing some of these solids to see what I get out of them.
I don't see much of the advantage with them especially compared to the warners. Minimal BC over other 12x grain and possibly more finicky
I hear you about the bc not being at the same level as the warners. I don't know how close their stated numbers are at Lehigh. That's why I asked for first hand experience.
The lehighs are a brass/ copper mix and from what I understand you need to clean your barrel out every time you switch between them and jacketed bullets. I don't know why so hopefully someone in the know can explain it.
Also, the BC on the lehighs may be low compared to the Warner Tools but they're also considerably cheaper ($36 per 100 vs $62 for 50) and still have higher bc's than comparable weight jacketed bullets with equal costs, plus you can push them much harder. The lehighs are also cheaper than the Cutting edge bullets, have a higher bc, and are less of a pain in the ass.
If* someone wanted to experiment with the solids vs lighter jacketed bullets, I don't see why the lehighs would be a bad choice and won't hurt the wallet like the others.
Also, the BC on the lehighs may be low compared to the Warner Tools but they're also considerably cheaper ($36 per 100 vs $62 for 50) and still have higher bc's than comparable weight jacketed bullets with equal costs, plus you can push them much harder. The lehighs are also cheaper than the Cutting edge bullets, have a higher bc, and are less of a pain in the ass.
If* someone wanted to experiment with the solids vs lighter jacketed bullets, I don't see why the lehighs would be a bad choice and won't hurt the wallet like the others.
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The lehighs shouldn't rob case capacity either. The 122gr controlled chaos measure out to 2.948 in my 6.5 creedmoor with I believe the standard .199 freebore.
The 130gr Cutting Edge are jammed into the lands at 2.664 in the same rifle, right at where Cutting edge recommends the sealing band to be at the case mount with about 0.6415 of the bullet in the case. Even though Cutting Edge says you can run them as hard has their jacketed counterparts, I found you can't even fit enough powder into the case for it to even come close and thats where I started to have issues. I figured I could interchange my Barnes 127gr Lrx hunting load with the 130gr MTH ( the Barnes is longer) and dropped down about a grain to work up. Still at a grain lower I couldn't fit the 130gr MTH into the case without compressing to much and ultimately the bullet would end up getting stuck in the die and had to be punched out. Tried a drop tube, vibrating the case, more tension, more chamfer and nada just ended up with a headache and a broken seating stem.
As I mentioned in another thread, Cutting Edge with send you Quickload data and they run theirs sloooowwww. About 2650fps or so in a 26" barrel. Just for reference, my 127gr Barnes Lrx load is running 2915fps in my 22" barrel and had them running 2968fps in y old 24". I've had the 120gr Nosler Etips around 3000fps with H4350 and could probably squeeze more out of it with a different powder and my buddy had them at 3125fps with Rl16 in a 24".
Also keep in mind that these are with solid hunting bullets which are long ( Barnes 127gr Lrx and 120gr Nosler Etip are 1.399" +) and generally like a lot of jump and faster twists to take advantage of all the BC. I suspect that the match bullets are shorter and may like being closer to the lands and not take up to much case capacity.
Hopefully this helps and maybe save you some money.
The 130gr Cutting Edge are jammed into the lands at 2.664 in the same rifle, right at where Cutting edge recommends the sealing band to be at the case mount with about 0.6415 of the bullet in the case. Even though Cutting Edge says you can run them as hard has their jacketed counterparts, I found you can't even fit enough powder into the case for it to even come close and thats where I started to have issues. I figured I could interchange my Barnes 127gr Lrx hunting load with the 130gr MTH ( the Barnes is longer) and dropped down about a grain to work up. Still at a grain lower I couldn't fit the 130gr MTH into the case without compressing to much and ultimately the bullet would end up getting stuck in the die and had to be punched out. Tried a drop tube, vibrating the case, more tension, more chamfer and nada just ended up with a headache and a broken seating stem.
As I mentioned in another thread, Cutting Edge with send you Quickload data and they run theirs sloooowwww. About 2650fps or so in a 26" barrel. Just for reference, my 127gr Barnes Lrx load is running 2915fps in my 22" barrel and had them running 2968fps in y old 24". I've had the 120gr Nosler Etips around 3000fps with H4350 and could probably squeeze more out of it with a different powder and my buddy had them at 3125fps with Rl16 in a 24".
Also keep in mind that these are with solid hunting bullets which are long ( Barnes 127gr Lrx and 120gr Nosler Etip are 1.399" +) and generally like a lot of jump and faster twists to take advantage of all the BC. I suspect that the match bullets are shorter and may like being closer to the lands and not take up to much case capacity.
Hopefully this helps and maybe save you some money.
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Just got off the phone with Josh at Lehigh. The 121 and the 122 controlled chaos bullets are not a brass/copper mix. They are all copper.
He suggests starting with your current charge for 140ish bullets and go from there. He says the website saying the 121 was for creed only is incorrect. It was only supposed to say that for the 122s. He did say however that the 122s would be a good choice for a 6.5-47L also.
Thanks for the info. I heard they were brass/copper so that clears it up. I bought some 122's since I now have a shorter barrel with a faster twist but haven't got around to using them.
No worries, just trying to clear up any rumor. I'll probably order some 121s but won't get any testing done till the fall.
What are you guys trying to do with low mass solids?
Nothing is a free lunch, chasing all the BC in the world does little if you can't see the information you need.
If your shooting steel at long range let me toss in a few observations, your millage may vary.
Lets make a couple of assumptions:
Assumption A-
Your system is good:
1a.That shooter is solid
2a. The load is nailed with relatively high velocities
3a. Self-spotting is completely wired regardless of bullet projectile weight A or B
Assumption B-
The information from the shot is very important to you:
1b. You would like to see the misses
2b. Frag signature off the plate is an import hit and wind read tool to you
3b. You want to see the watermarks left on the plates
As distances increase, misses, plate movements and impact frag are diminished and harder to see. Mass is your friend when spotting the moment of impact. A 300gr 338 is way easier get feedback from than a 55gr 223, I don't think there would be any argument.
We're are all familiar that on heavy plates at longer ranges that 6mm 105gr bullets can sometimes be a bit harder to spot.. than lets say a 6.5mm 140grain. But solids are WAY HARDER to spot as they do NOT create anywhere near the same frag signature or watermarks as their lead core counterparts. They all share one common issue, caliber to caliber. They have less mass and do NOT frag anywhere close to the same caliber your are shooting.. My 6.5 might frag like a standard 223 on a plate at 500m.
Here are some real examples of frag.. Note that we could see the frag signature in our scopes on both the 285gr and 168gr lead cores, but not the solids even though it was 200y closer.
Here is an example of a 338 285gr lead core 2240. Look at the miss, but really the frag signature coming off the bottom of the plate.
Here is an example at 2200; 200 yards closer than the above sample with a 338 267gr SOLID.. look at how much smaller the watermark is, but really how little and fast the TINY frag clouds is and disappears.
Now back to a 7mm only 168gr 2400y. 200y further than the SOLID example above.. look how much more frag. signature a smaller standard projectile shows than the zippy Solid 338
I've shot more solids that I want, as I live in an area were it is law for hunting.. I also went down the path BC and speed chasing for both long range and ELR. Between those three, I have time on 6/6.5/308/270/7/300/338s. They all share one common issue, caliber to caliber. They have less mass and do NOT frag anywhere close to the same caliber your are shooting.. Solids might be ok .30 cal and up, but a 6.5/6 is really low mass and your really giving up things in Assumption B.
Soooo - if your looking for increase long range performance on steel.. Maybe think of another caliber first.. then when need more but the next caliber's recoil starts to threaten stuff in assumption A, move to solids.
Nothing is a free lunch, chasing all the BC in the world does little if you can't see the information you need.
If your shooting steel at long range let me toss in a few observations, your millage may vary.
Lets make a couple of assumptions:
Assumption A-
Your system is good:
1a.That shooter is solid
2a. The load is nailed with relatively high velocities
3a. Self-spotting is completely wired regardless of bullet projectile weight A or B
Assumption B-
The information from the shot is very important to you:
1b. You would like to see the misses
2b. Frag signature off the plate is an import hit and wind read tool to you
3b. You want to see the watermarks left on the plates
As distances increase, misses, plate movements and impact frag are diminished and harder to see. Mass is your friend when spotting the moment of impact. A 300gr 338 is way easier get feedback from than a 55gr 223, I don't think there would be any argument.
We're are all familiar that on heavy plates at longer ranges that 6mm 105gr bullets can sometimes be a bit harder to spot.. than lets say a 6.5mm 140grain. But solids are WAY HARDER to spot as they do NOT create anywhere near the same frag signature or watermarks as their lead core counterparts. They all share one common issue, caliber to caliber. They have less mass and do NOT frag anywhere close to the same caliber your are shooting.. My 6.5 might frag like a standard 223 on a plate at 500m.
Here are some real examples of frag.. Note that we could see the frag signature in our scopes on both the 285gr and 168gr lead cores, but not the solids even though it was 200y closer.
Here is an example of a 338 285gr lead core 2240. Look at the miss, but really the frag signature coming off the bottom of the plate.
Here is an example at 2200; 200 yards closer than the above sample with a 338 267gr SOLID.. look at how much smaller the watermark is, but really how little and fast the TINY frag clouds is and disappears.
Now back to a 7mm only 168gr 2400y. 200y further than the SOLID example above.. look how much more frag. signature a smaller standard projectile shows than the zippy Solid 338
I've shot more solids that I want, as I live in an area were it is law for hunting.. I also went down the path BC and speed chasing for both long range and ELR. Between those three, I have time on 6/6.5/308/270/7/300/338s. They all share one common issue, caliber to caliber. They have less mass and do NOT frag anywhere close to the same caliber your are shooting.. Solids might be ok .30 cal and up, but a 6.5/6 is really low mass and your really giving up things in Assumption B.
Soooo - if your looking for increase long range performance on steel.. Maybe think of another caliber first.. then when need more but the next caliber's recoil starts to threaten stuff in assumption A, move to solids.
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Your argument is valid. And you are not the first one to point that out to me. I'm not trying to use he lighter bullet to reach farther out there like some might be. My thought is to run a bullet up to the speed limit of a steel match and chest the wind as much as possible. Inside 1000 mostly. First round hits.
Do you have any comparison for a 105 6mm standard bullet to a 120ish 6.5 solid? If I can get impact signature close to a 105 I'd be ok with that.
Do you have any comparison for a 105 6mm standard bullet to a 120ish 6.5 solid? If I can get impact signature close to a 105 I'd be ok with that.
As mentioned about 500m my 6.5 with solids seem to indicate frag like a 223; I've sent lots of 130 and 140 grains solids going 3150fps, can see the plate move, drive up later and see the nice copper watermarks.. But thru the scope... not so much.
It will not be close to a 105 as far as the frag goes. So if your match has small light plates your ok as they dance to show the impacts, but if the plates are heavy at the longer ends and the mirage running.. hum - the RO probably will not see it, don't forget those guys also use your the frag signature too.
What you'll be giving up is the wind read from the frag and if your lucky to get on a plate before it is beat up (or not painted grey) the watermark. What you gain in a 10th or 2 of wind is lost in the intel.
For legal reasons.. yep solids; Bragging rights, OK.. big bore to get a little extra at ELR ranges, makes sense.. PRS/NRL type matches? Maybe not so much..
Again, it is just my observations..
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Where and for what game animals are solids "law" for hunting besides maybe Africa?
Other than a tipped bullet with a solid body like a TTSX, GMX, MTH ect. (that creates frags signatures as poorly as any non-tipped solid) what have you used that frags like a traditional lead target bullet?
Just curious ~ everything I have seen that has a decent BC and is CA approved is still a solid
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Thanks - not that it matters, but the ATF came after several MFGs using tungsten tips, cores or any other secondary material that had a weight ratio that put it into a banned class.
Anyway, for steel matches it is the soft lead that grenades on impact giving us or super important feedback.
I wish the light solids provided more frag and watermarking - I really wanted the 6.5 to be more valuable to me. I had the same conversation with a noted MFG; when they were kinda debating on releasing a 6mm before the 6.5..
Anyway, not every one cares about shooting lots of plates quickly and needs the wind intel. So I am not in anyway bashing the high BC solids.
HI Steve,
Of course, I have shot way more plates than animals. I still have't put together what the perfect combination is of speed and solid for hunting, but I suspect all of our experiences are antidotal at best. My son and I primarily hunt pigs in CA. The short answer is they die, but I am still not convinced they are as good if you go too slow, OR too fast.
6.5: I have shot the 120 TTSX with H4350 hand loads and 120GMX factory loads. My 6.5 actually likes the factory GMX better, it is faster and really precise. However, I have only taken pigs with the TTSX..
I see and hear wonderful things about the TTSX just dropping things, but to be honest, I am still a bit skeptical if solids, especially higher BC solids, work as well.
Here is a pig I shot about 500ish with a 7mm with a 140TTSX MV 3200. So I have to assume the velocity was about 2200. The hart was shot, The animal bleed out internally, the bullet broke apart and exited in tiny parts, but no "large exit wound", even inside, the wound cavity was not huge like I would have expected with a 168 Berger hunter.. and no blood trail.
Shot under the oak tree in the meadow below - son in picture
Jim
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Back to the frag thing. I found an image I put together from one of our plates when I was having this same conversation about what is happening with solids that is causing such a low frag signature off steel.
Note: The 6.5 had a ton of misses at the distance show but did empty the lead when it hit the plate. The 338 having over 2x the weight didn't leave a frag signature any better that the 6.5, but did swing the plate. We were using target camera to review and spot the 6.5s.
Note: In the MUCH smaller sampling of animals I am NOT finding solids that look like they do when the hit a plate. The solids seem more intact when they hit steel far off (lower velocity) and close just fractured (hard to find).
I hope some of this is helpful as you guys on small calibers decide if solids are for you.. just trying to share what I have found by spending WAY to much time and money..
Note: The 6.5 had a ton of misses at the distance show but did empty the lead when it hit the plate. The 338 having over 2x the weight didn't leave a frag signature any better that the 6.5, but did swing the plate. We were using target camera to review and spot the 6.5s.
Note: In the MUCH smaller sampling of animals I am NOT finding solids that look like they do when the hit a plate. The solids seem more intact when they hit steel far off (lower velocity) and close just fractured (hard to find).
I hope some of this is helpful as you guys on small calibers decide if solids are for you.. just trying to share what I have found by spending WAY to much time and money..
I've never used them but there's DRT bullets. They don't have a selection but they use a powder core and are CA approved.
That is super interesting! Thanks I not sure these are any better for plates, but I'll see if I can look them up and get them.. Unfortunately, we have another issue in CA and it make mail order almost impossible.
Thanks
I live in CA also. I just looked at their website and they used to have more bullet options. I recall awhile ago they were supposed to be making .264 and .284 bullets and saw they had a 147gr terminal shock loaded for the 6.5 creedmoor.
https://www.drtammo.com/DRT-Store/Product-Viewer/65-Creedmoor-147gr-Terminal-Shock-20-Rnd-Box
https://www.drtammo.com/DRT-Store/Product-Viewer/65-Creedmoor-147gr-Terminal-Shock-20-Rnd-Box
Not to derail this thread to much but I emailed DRT about the .264" 147gr Terminal Shocks. The bullets are 1.310" long with a .576 G1 Bc and should be put on the website for individual sale this week. BUT, the website says they'll only ship the projectiles to an ffl in CA, which doesn't make sense to me so I asked but was just told they'll ship them to Ca.
I think we already derailed it sorry OP
Are you ordering some? Love to learn more.
FYI - Something does not make sense .264 only 1.31" yet has a BC of .576? With that length, it should be in the .4-ish G1. Could the listed length be way wrong?
The best TTSX in .264 @ 1.32" I think are .412 (Barnes = almost always low BC) ; Berger 140s 1.42" .607BC to .59 depending on 140 type.
I think I may try some. It's already starting to get hot down here in the central valley so maybe I'll just suck it up some.
Thats just the information i was given and the title said the email was from the president of the company. Their loaded creedmoor ammo is saying they have a G1 Bc of .576 and are pushing 26-2650 fps. I just wanted to acquire about the length to make sure they were going to be to long but was told they were 1.310". Being that my 147gr Eld-m load is about 2840ish or so with Rl26 in my 22" barrel, I think I'll use the information I have for the Hornadys and see if it translates to the DRT 147's.
Right now in my creedmoor I run the 127gr Lrx and they're 1.399". Barnes G1 is .468 and I have them @2915fps in my 22" 7.5 twist creedmoor.
Thats just the information i was given and the title said the email was from the president of the company. Their loaded creedmoor ammo is saying they have a G1 Bc of .576 and are pushing 26-2650 fps. I just wanted to acquire about the length to make sure they were going to be to long but was told they were 1.310". Being that my 147gr Eld-m load is about 2840ish or so with Rl26 in my 22" barrel, I think I'll use the information I have for the Hornadys and see if it translates to the DRT 147's.
Right now in my creedmoor I run the 127gr Lrx and they're 1.399". Barnes G1 is .468 and I have them @2915fps in my 22" 7.5 twist creedmoor.
Central Valley - we'll be shooting a local mach Sunday at Avenal.. Have you shot those? - Maybe we know each other. If you haven't, PM me for details..
Ya, I suspect they are much longer than 1.31" if the weight is 147 and the BC as high as they say..
