CZ455 or 22 AR15 upper for Precision Practice

[MMH]

I want to get a precision 22 for cheaper & more convenient centerfire practice. For a while I was thinking about getting a Compass Lake Engineering 22 upper & that it would really give me the same muscle memory, etc. when shooting my AR at 600 yards. I do not do any service rifle type of competition, just F class stuff.

At the same time, I really shoot my bolt guns more than my AR, so with that being the case would I be better off w/ a CZ455? I would spend allot less on the CZ455 than the 22 upper.

I probably am overthinking this, and either one will give practice that I am after, but wanted to seek out some opinions.

 

[kl3309]

Get a Vudoo.

 

[djdilliodon]

First question you gotta ask yourself is what type of accuracy your looking to achieve. Then what configuration you want. Next is finding that configuration that is gauranteed to deliver the accuracy you want. The last part is your budget, If what you find exceeds your budget currently, be patient! Save up and do it right the first time!

 

[MMH]

First question you gotta ask yourself is what type of accuracy your looking to achieve. Then what configuration you want. Next is finding that configuration that is gauranteed to deliver the accuracy you want. The last part is your budget, If what you find exceeds your budget currently, be patient! Save up and do it right the first time!

Good questions! I started this quest as getting a 22 as a trainer for my long range center fire practice. I shoot both semi-auto and bolt at 600 yds. & 1000 yds. I was thinking that if I really can learn how to shoot 22 at 200 yards than my long range center fire shooting will really improve. I was not really sure what type of accuracy was possible but was hoping to get to something 1/2 moa at 100 yards. Will 1 moa be good enough? Obviously, accuracy is related to the budget.

I was quickly surprised as to how much high end 22s cost - Guess that I should not have been. So at the low end of the spectrum, a stock CZ455 for $500 - what kind of accuracy will that get me? Moving up to a CLE 22 AR rifle will be around $1200. At that point started looking at the MPA 22BA - but now we are at $1700!

Anyway, clearly I am just at the soul searching phase. More than anything, I need help in determining how good of a 22 I really need. A little more inclined to a bolt, but only a little. It really would be fun to rapidly blast 10 golf balls at 100 yards w/ a semi as well.

 

[RicosRevenge]

...hoping to get to something 1/2 moa at 100 yards...

Glad to see that you are re-evaluating your expectations. It shows that you are doing your homework.

Do 1/2" 5-Shot groups at 100 yards happen? Yep; I have had more than my share. However, those are an exception not a rule and anyone on here that actually knows what in the hell they are talking about here will agree. Rifles that will accomplish this feat with regularity are few and far between and have been shot A LOT with ammo matched to that particular rifle (the rifles are also matched with skilled shooters).

It is only very recently have you started to see higher-end centerfire rifles with a sub-MOA guarantee. Prior to that a 1 MOA guarantee was a big deal. Rimfire is effected by outside influences much more so even with a capable rifle; things happen. I have a couple thousand documented rounds/groups with my 40X over 4 years and some days things are right... then there's the other days. Overall, my average 5-shot group is 1.08" so even that rifle isn't a true "1 MOA."

With respect to your bolt vs. semi decision... get both, duh. Ha!! But seriously, given the above information; if your concern is with accuracy then the bolt gun would probably be your better fit. Just like centerfire, there are less variables in a bolt gun vs. a semi.

Either way, good luck brother!

 

[justin amateur]

That half moa guarantee for a quality 22lr rifle, is based on using match quality 22lr ammunition.
The other part of the 22lr guarantee is that it is shot at only 50 yards, for good reason.
Due to time of flight of the 22lr at 50 yards, 10 fps difference in mv produces 7/100ths inch vertical difference in poi.
With the majority of retail match 22lr ammo having an ES of about 40 fps, at 50 yards
you can expect a bit more than 1/4 inch vertical spread. That's the 1/2 moa guarantee.
At 100 yards a quality 22lr barrel can only be expected to produce 1 moa from that same box of match ammo.
Yes, you can get a run of tight mv's that will allow 1/4 moa results at 100 yards, but that is the exception.
Shoot across a ballistic chronograph, whenever you punch paper from a bench,
and the variations in the quality of 22lr ammunition we can purchase easily explain the limitations in accuracy.

 

[uncoffeed]

Yeah; decide what you're after. If you want your practice to prioritize accuracy, get a bolt gun. If you wanna fool around, consider your semiauto.
If you go for bolt guns, put it this way: beyond the CZ, the gun isn't usually the deciding factor. The CZ455 will get you more than 90% of what most people are able to get out of a repeating .22lr. An Anschutz will be more accurate, but only a bit. The amount by which an Anschutz is better than a CZ will be difficult to measure in anything but strict bench testing. If you're practicing for your centerfire, you're better off putting the extra money into making your CZ just like your centerfire and buying lots of quality ammo for it.

 

[flatland1]

A used M54 Anschutz prone rifle in good condition would probably help your F-class scores quite a bit. I traded for an Anschutz 1611 years ago that came with an Anschutz aperture sight set. It'd seen a lot of use, but I think not much abuse. It also had the nicest bedding job I'd ever seen, and was capable of cleaning the NRA 100yd smallbore target with ammo that it liked. The 1611 stock was a ringer for the Robertson Composites H&H prone stocks I have on several of my CF LR prone rifles, so practice with the Anschutz was one of the best forms of practice I could get for mid- & long-range highpower matches. At the time (around 2006-7), I traded a CMP H&R M12 + $435 boot for that Anschutz - I still consider it one of - if not the best - trades I've ever made.

OTOH, I bought one of the 22RF AR bbls + modified conversion unit from CLE last year, then assembled a complete upper with parts I had on hand. I haven't shot it that much since putting it together, but on one memorable afternoon, I took it along with a couple of 40X repeaters done to my range and got it to shoot as good as a Stiller 2500XR/Krieger and a 40X/Benchmark custom bbl at 200yds. I'd been testing several lots of SK Std+ in the bolt rifles, and had all the left-overs in a cardboard box - just grabbed one of the 50rd boxes & loaded 10rds in the AR mag, and darned if it didn't match or beat the best groups I'd shot at 200 with either of the custom bolt rifles. Naturally, that was the only remaining box of that lot # of Std+; wish I had a couple of cases of that stuff for the AR22!

 

[Hoser]

Semi autos are harder to shoot well than bolt guns.

My CLE upper will hang with my bolt guns, but you really have to focus. Follow through is critical. Not quite like an air rifle, but close.

 

[MMH]

Yeah; decide what you're after. If you want your practice to prioritize accuracy, get a bolt gun. If you wanna fool around, consider your semiauto.
If you go for bolt guns, put it this way: beyond the CZ, the gun isn't usually the deciding factor. The CZ455 will get you more than 90% of what most people are able to get out of a repeating .22lr. An Anschutz will be more accurate, but only a bit. The amount by which an Anschutz is better than a CZ will be difficult to measure in anything but strict bench testing. If you're practicing for your centerfire, you're better off putting the extra money into making your CZ just like your centerfire and buying lots of quality ammo for it.

So which CZ would be a good starting point? Don't think that I need a barrel longer than 16 & would definitely want it threaded for a suppressor. Something like a 455 Tacticool? Wish it had a picatinny instead of the integral 11mm dovetail.

What else would I do to get it more like my centerfire?

 

[BenY 2013]

I'd recommend 16" especially if you are throwing a suppressor on the end of it. There are several companies that make picatinny rails for the CZ. I went with DP but there are several other options on the market now.

Ben

 

[uncoffeed]

So which CZ would be a good starting point? Don't think that I need a barrel longer than 16 & would definitely want it threaded for a suppressor. Something like a 455 Tacticool? Wish it had a picatinny instead of the integral 11mm dovetail.

What else would I do to get it more like my centerfire?

Not super familiar with the models, but I think the Tacticool is the only threaded version. Maybe the Precision Trainer too. Either is fine- basically the same gun. You'll want to get it pillar and glass bedded, which ever way you go. Unless you're going to pop it into a chassis. If your centerfire has a chassis, you can find something very similar. McRees, XLR, KRG, and MPA all make chassis systems for the CZ. The dovetail's no big deal. You can get a pic rail if you want or just a set of rings that fit. It's about 13mil to 300y, so most good scopes will dial that far without a canted base.
The Yo Dave trigger kit is awesome.
For scopes, a lot of guys put SWFA fixed or 3x15s on their guns. Otherwise, just match reticles with your centerfire (Vortex Razor Gen II centerfire = PST Gen II, ATACR H59 = HDMRII)
With a rifle set up this way, you may lose points on a BR target but you'll never miss a piece of steel or an egg that you would have hit with a more expensive rifle. For <$1000, you can have an amazing trainer with scope and bedded Boyds stock. For a few hundred extra, you can be matching reticles and/or chassis.

 

[MMH]

Not super familiar with the models, but I think the Tacticool is the only threaded version. Maybe the Precision Trainer too. Either is fine- basically the same gun. You'll want to get it pillar and glass bedded, which ever way you go. Unless you're going to pop it into a chassis. If your centerfire has a chassis, you can find something very similar. McRees, XLR, KRG, and MPA all make chassis systems for the CZ. The dovetail's no big deal. You can get a pic rail if you want or just a set of rings that fit. It's about 13mil to 300y, so most good scopes will dial that far without a canted base.
The Yo Dave trigger kit is awesome.
For scopes, a lot of guys put SWFA fixed or 3x15s on their guns. Otherwise, just match reticles with your centerfire (Vortex Razor Gen II centerfire = PST Gen II, ATACR H59 = HDMRII)
With a rifle set up this way, you may lose points on a BR target but you'll never miss a piece of steel or an egg that you would have hit with a more expensive rifle. For <$1000, you can have an amazing trainer with scope and bedded Boyds stock. For a few hundred extra, you can be matching reticles and/or chassis.

My bolt stocks are not chassis - Manners T4 & B&CM40. So is the existing CZ455 stock good after bedding or will the stock need to be updated?

 

[MMH]

Not super familiar with the models, but I think the Tacticool is the only threaded version. Maybe the Precision Trainer too. Either is fine- basically the same gun. You'll want to get it pillar and glass bedded, which ever way you go. Unless you're going to pop it into a chassis. If your centerfire has a chassis, you can find something very similar. McRees, XLR, KRG, and MPA all make chassis systems for the CZ. The dovetail's no big deal. You can get a pic rail if you want or just a set of rings that fit. It's about 13mil to 300y, so most good scopes will dial that far without a canted base.
The Yo Dave trigger kit is awesome.
For scopes, a lot of guys put SWFA fixed or 3x15s on their guns. Otherwise, just match reticles with your centerfire (Vortex Razor Gen II centerfire = PST Gen II, ATACR H59 = HDMRII)
With a rifle set up this way, you may lose points on a BR target but you'll never miss a piece of steel or an egg that you would have hit with a more expensive rifle. For <$1000, you can have an amazing trainer with scope and bedded Boyds stock. For a few hundred extra, you can be matching reticles and/or chassis.

My bolt stocks are not chassis - Manners T4 & B&CM40. So is the existing CZ455 stock good after bedding or will the stock need to be updated?

 

[MMH]

Semi autos are harder to shoot well than bolt guns.

My CLE upper will hang with my bolt guns, but you really have to focus. Follow through is critical. Not quite like an air rifle, but close.

CLE makes good stuff & Frank & his wife are top notch! CLE 5.56 ARs will hang with most bolt guns too. I have a CLE 22" heavy Bartlein barreled AR that is a legitimate 1/2 moa gun. The gun is, I am not...

So what got me on this journey was a need for a 22 trainer, but let me back up a bit. I couple of years I got a precision AR as a trainer/backup for my 308 bolt. I was beginning to shoot allot of F class and at 600 yards figured I could learn allot on follow through & wind by shooting a 5.56 semi-auto. Now I want to extend that 'training' and learn how to shoot a 22LR at 200 yards. The other real allure of a 22 is that with a suppressor, I will be able to shoot in my back yard. Something about the ability to shoot when I only have 15 minutes instead of turning everything to a dedicated range trip. I shoot in my back yard now (and can legally do so - closest neighbor is 100 yards away), but hard for me to get to much past 100 or 150 yards, and if I start shooting several times a week, I will want to be 'hollywood' quiet. Thus the need for a 22 trainer w/ a can.

I know that if I truly want to master one gun, I need to stick to one gun. At the same time I enjoy shooting allot of different guns. In addition, there is benefit in learning to deal with shortcomings of one platform that pay dividends on other platforms. For instance, if I learn good follow thru by shooting an AR10, than the follow thru on a 22 bolt will be under control.

With all of the above said, I think that I will be OK w/ an AR 22 upper or a CZ455. And by the time the CZ is improved, the money will be about the same... One argument in favor of the AR is for rapid precision shooting, such as in Project Appleseed type of courses.

Now that I have thoroughly hijacked my own thread, I would like to thank everyone that has responded. I learned allot about 'long range' 22 trainers and the various arguments presented helped me appreciate the various facets.

Thanks again!