Rifle Scopes Damaged Optic? w/ shot progression

[R_A_W]

UPDATE
Rather than keep bumping this to the top of the forum, I’ll just edit this post up top in bold.

Burris' repair process was about as hassle-free as it can get. Although I'm very please with Burris' response & how fast they turned the scope around, I'd rather not need any customer service in the first place. I'm probably just an outlier failure case, but this XTR3 will now be mounted on a Bergara B-14R & used for practice.

_____________________________________
4/11/23 Burris sent an RMA # and prepaid label within 24 hours of my filing a claim.
4/20/23 Burris received scope.
5/8/23 Burris repaired optic, free of charge & no questions asked. Repair notes to be mailed with scope. Shipped.

5/11/23 Repaired optic delivered with repair notes:

• Damaged elevation turret replaced. No explanation regarding the damage.
• Parallax & windage functioned properly.
• Suggest that the bottoming-out may have resulted from user error due to maxed out elevation (while mounted on a B-14R in my videos below). While I suppose this is possible & it does correlate to the direction of adjustment in the videos... I'm skeptical. 90MOA total internal adjustment range * 1/2 - 30MOA base = 15MOA remaining "Down" = ~3.75" @25yds. Since the POI were <2.5" high (~10MOA @ 25yds) prior to making any adjustment, this would require an adjustment shortfall of at least ~4MOA. In reality, the shortfall would have to be even greater than this 4MOA to account for drop, however minimal the drop of a .22LR is @ 25yds.
• Grinding noise due to "pin on the elevation turret was digging into the knob. This is caused by applying too much force onto the knob when setting the zero" - this doesn't sound like I over-tightened the Allen screws, so I don't have a clue what this means. I pushed downward too forcefully while resetting the zero stop? I may give Burris a call.

I've attached 3 more images from a quick tracking test. Point of Aim was the lower right target for all 6 groups. 5 rounds on each, shot from upper-right across to upper-left, then down to lower-left and back across to lower-right. Range @ muzzle was 50.5yds. B-14R isn't great with Eley Tenex, all 30 shots are @ 0.8" (1.6MOA).

END OF UPDATES (unless the scope breaks again)
_____________________________________

I fired sub-MOA groups @ >600 yards on Saturday, then drove around feeding cattle with the rifle in the passenger seat. I later missed two shots @ 250 yards on two different coyotes & knew something was off. I figured I just bumped the optic & lost zero, so I fired the 13 shots in the chart & recorded the results. I remounted the scope after shot #7.

Does the attached shot progression look like the results from a damaged optic? Or could this be the result from an improperly torqued stock?

I have >700 rounds through this .308 Win M700 5R, ~650 being hand loads. This rifle is my ranch gun & sees more abuse than use. Despite that, has consistently shot ~0.3 to 0.4 MOA through multiple optic changes & removal/reinstall of the factory HSP stock (bedded in 2009 @ ~100 rounds). I also double checked the COAL/CBTO/shoulders on the remaining 50 rounds from this batch of reloads, they're to my specs.

FWIW this is a new scope from a good manufacturer with less than 200 rounds on it. I'm hesitant to mention the manufacturer/model at this point and throw them under the bus before I've even contacted them. It's my understanding they have good CS, but wanted to check in here first. In the meantime, I'm considering mounting it on a .22LR & running a tracking test. It was probably going to end up that .22LR anyways...

 

[Milf Dots]

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but the heat of a vehicle's interior or trunk on hot sunny days is enough to cause epoxy/bedding, stocks, kydex holsters, polymers, to soften and lose strength & rigidity. Some holster makers even have that on their websites, and printed materials included with their holsters.

 

[R_A_W]

That isn't too surprising to me. However, in this case the temperature range was 55 F to 70 F, so I doubt that was the issue.

I'll add the following: Shot #1 was cold bore, but a 0.4mil/0.4mil POI shift for cold bore would be far greater than typical. There are about 150 116 rounds through the barrel since the last cleaning. The 13 rounds were fired pretty slowly, so the barrel never got warm. I'm using Varget, so 20 F temp swings shouldn't matter in that department.

 

[Milf Dots]

150 rounds since last cleaned might not sound like a lot, but it's the easy thing to eliminate from the equation. And if the rifle sat for any length of time, the bore may have oxidized a bit.

 

[R_A_W]

Cleaning was 3 months ago (early Feb), using Shooters Choice MC7.

I checked my log book for actual round count... 116 rounds since last cleaning, including these 13.

It's a 5R barrel that just doesn't seem to foul quickly, so I don't think that is the issue.

ETA - I've never had an issue like this, so open to any ideas & I appreciate your responses

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I would pull the optic and try another and see if the results change. I would say it's most likely an optic issue.

 

[Milf Dots]

Good troubleshooting is often a process of elimination, and that's why it's smart to start with the easiest first:
1) Clean the bore
2) After cleaning the bore, shoot some quality factory ammo to test it

If the problem persists, at least you'll have some process of elimination to tell the scope company.

Cleaning was 3 months ago (early Feb), using Shooters Choice MC7.

I checked my log book for actual round count... 116 rounds since last cleaning, including these 13.

It's a 5R barrel that just doesn't seem to foul quickly, so I don't think that is the issue.

ETA - I've never had an issue like this, so open to any ideas & I appreciate your responses

ETA: Did you use known good rings with the new scope, or new rings? Any signs of slippage in the rings?

 

[R_A_W]

Rings are BNIB Seekins 34mm high, base is the same Seekins 20MOA that has always been on the rifle. The gun shot fine with this scope and this batch of hand loads (mostly sub-0.5MOA w/ a few @ just sub-1MOA @ 600yds), then magically became a 2.5 MOA gun.

I generally agree w/ the "start w/ easiest first", but I'll get rid of any .308 that fouls badly enough to open up to 2.5 MOA in just 101 shots. I guess I'll clean it anyways, but I'm going to put the NF that was on it back on & do a quick tracking test.

 

[XLR308]

Rings are BNIB Seekins 34mm high, base is the same Seekins 20MOA that has always been on the rifle. The gun shot fine with this scope and this batch of hand loads (mostly sub-0.5MOA w/ a few @ just sub-1MOA @ 600yds), then magically became a 2.5 MOA gun.

I generally agree w/ the "start w/ easiest first", but I'll get rid of any .308 that fouls badly enough to open up to 2.5 MOA in just 101 shots. I guess I'll clean it anyways, but I'm going to put the NF that was on it back on & do a quick tracking test.

So two differenr scopes had similar results ?
Sorry i read your original post again just the newly mounted scope.
I would go back and check all fastener torque values inluding action screws and run a tracking test.

 

[R_A_W]

No, the old scope (NF) tracked fine for 15 years. It was removed to try out this new scope, which worked fine for 2 months & 101 rounds, then went to the results above.

I compared the POI to the anticipated POI following each of the adjustments. If I did the math correctly, there's a 0.8mil height variance & 0.5mil windage variance... on a gun that typically shoots around 0.1-0.125mil groups.

 

[R_A_W]

I would go back and check all fastener torque values inluding action screws and run a tracking test.

I did when I remounted it.

This essentially was an informal tracking test, no? Assume I have a perfectly accurate rifle & I achieve the following:

POI 0.5mil low, dial 0.5mil up
POI 0.3mil low

Then the scope isn't tracking; it's off by -0.3mil following the second shot

right?


edit

I would say it's most likely an optic issue.

The more I'm thinking about this, the more I'm feeling like this is the case. Nevertheless, I'll be a little surprised.

 

[XLR308]

No, the old scope (NF) tracked fine for 15 years. It was removed to try out this new scope, which worked fine for 2 months & 101 rounds, then went to the results above.

I compared the POI to the anticipated POI following each of the adjustments. If I did the math correctly, there's a 0.8mil height variance & 0.5mil windage variance... on a gun that typically shoots around 0.1-0.125mil groups.

Got it, no manufacturer regardless of reputation is perfect and shit happens.
I have had a few over the years that i had utmost confidence in, one in paticular that i swapped to a sporter 300wm that pulled its pants down in less than 10 rounds.
Thankfully it was a range and not hunting.
Me personally i would also take the advice that was given to give the barrel a quick cleaning since that is simple and quick and surely would hurt.

 

[R_A_W]

Thankfully it was a range and not hunting.

Best way to find out. Unfortunately, we lost another calf that night 1000 yards from where I missed those 2 coyote shots @ 250 yards.

edit

what the hell, why not

Just ordered an ATACR.

 

[Chris1972]

This sound a whole lot like an issue I had recently with a new scope. Sent it back to the manufacturer and they rebuilt the erector and called it good. I never shot it again and sold it with a clean bill of health from……Leupold.

 

[R_A_W]

If it turns out to be the optic, I'm confident this mfg will remedy it without question.

I won't have the confidence to field it on a utility or hunting rifle, but I'll probably still keep it & just throw it on my .22LR practice rifle.

 

[R_A_W]

Update - It's the scope.

I mounted the scope on my B-14R and fired 5 quick shots @ 25 yards. POI was ~3.6" high & 1.5" left, so I reset the elevation zero stop at 4.0mils. The elevation turret bottoms out before reaching the true zero stop, but with a noticeable grinding over the last 0.2mils down that sounds like grinding broken glass (only on the first attempt, barely audible in the second video with the turret starting @ 2mils). The elevation turret is not bottoming out consistently, either. The windage turret seems to function properly. See the 3 videos below of the elevation turret bottoming out in 3 different positions prior to reaching the zero stop.

I also hadn't run the parallax to minimum range until just now. It's supposed to be 22yds, but the target was extremely blurry. It was not this way a week ago.

The scope didn't take a significant bump at any point, so this is a little disappointing. I know Burris will repair it, but it's centerfire days are over.





I can't get the embedded videos to play, so here are direct links:
Video 1 @ 8mils
Video 2 @ 2mils
Video 3 @ 4mils

EDIT: The parallax seems to be working fine. I believe I was just picking up a ton of mirage from part of the driveway, even though it was cool out & completely shaded. I just assumed "no way the mirage could have been that bad over 25yds", but I'm a complete amateur to shooting with magnified optics inside of 100 yards...

 

[redneckbmxer24]

That sucks, I kinda figured it was going to be that Burris that you had mentioned in another thread. Yeah, they’re so great.

@Birddog6424 I guess you can add this to your count of “a handful” of XTR3’s that have gone back… that Burris somehow had enough failed and refurbished units of to sell a batch of to Natchez recently

 

[R_A_W]

Yeah… I didn’t mention Burris initially because I wasn’t certain the issue was theirs.

Given there wasn’t any significant bump or impact, I’ve lost confidence… especially after throwing caution to the wind for last 10-15 years beating the hell out of NFs without a single issue.

To make matters worse, I missed two shots that may well have cost a calf its life & us $.

 

[Chris1972]

I hate to say it but that calf pays for the upgrade. They all fail though. The only scope that I’ve had that hasn’t eventually failed was a super chicken 5-20. On that that note I do have a SS 10x that’s gone tits up and I need to send it back.

I haven’t owned a NF and I haven’t owned the ZCO long enough to tear it up. Give me a minute.

 

[R_A_W]

I hate to say it but that calf pays for the upgrade. They all fail though. The only scope that I’ve had that hasn’t eventually failed was a super chicken 5-20. On that that note I do have a SS 10x that’s gone tits up and I need to send it back.

I haven’t owned a NF and I haven’t owned the ZCO long enough to tear it up. Give me a minute.

You know I’m kicking myself over this haha

Almost ordered a ZCO for this, went with the ATACR for now. It’ll make its way to a different rifle in about a year & I’ll either get a ZCO or baby ATACR for the subject 308

 

[Birddog6424]

That sucks, I kinda figured it was going to be that Burris that you had mentioned in another thread. Yeah, they’re so great.

@Birddog6424 I guess you can add this to your count of “a handful” of XTR3’s that have gone back… that Burris somehow had enough failed and refurbished units of to sell a batch of to Natchez recently

Haha, stop being such a baby Let it go already. You're still all alone grinding your axe, and it's getting a little weird.

Scroll up a few posts to the guy who had the same thing happen with his Leupold.

To the OP. Reach out to Burris, they'll take care of it pretty quickly for you. The XTR is a proven optic, sorry you got the lottery ticket on that one.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Almost ordered a ZCO for this, went with the ATACR for now. It’ll make its way to a different rifle in about a year & I’ll either get a ZCO or baby ATACR for the subject 308

I was considering the same two and ended up going with the ZCO for my 300 PRC (bought from @CSTactical). As a point of reference, three weeks ago we were out in the hills shooting. At the end of the day we had picked up our 2200 yard target and were heading out down a barely (and not this year) used road that had had a lot of grass growing on it thanks to all the rain we've gotten. The grass hid a deep hole that we hit so hard in my jeep that at least one of my rifles hit the rear top light and turned it on. When I got home and opened the PRC rifle bag, I thought, "why is my rifle upside down?" I guess it was the one that turned the light on...

Last week I took it out again and tested it at 100 yards to see if there was any POI movement. It was dead on. I'm sure the ATACR would have done the same.