Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

[MaritimeGuy]

As this is my first post i'd like to say hello to everybody here and thanks for all the great information, I've already learned a great deal!

I'm looking at picking up my first rifle and I'm hoping to receive some info from someone with a lot more experience than me in these matters and this forum seemed like the best option.

I'm currently looking at two different rifles, the first which I have completely fallen in love with is an original Tula SVT-40 sniper variant manufactured in 1942. It does not come with the scope or mounts but I've already sourced original ones elsewhere from the same year. The rifle is being sold from a reputable dealer here in Canada for $400. It's been arsenal refinished, comes with a original mag pinned to 5 rounds, has "Two Re-enforcing screws at pistol grip area to repair the stock", and the "Bore is dark with pitting".

The second one i'm looking at is a Mosin Nagant M91/30 with bent bolt handle to accommodate the scope (which is not included) but once again I've sourced original scopes for it. Its arsenal refinished, rated as "very good - excellent" condition, with a very good bore for $225

Both rifles would mainly be a show piece that I would bring to the range now and again I love long distance shooting but sadly the biggest range around here is 600m. Would i run into problems shooting the SVT-40 at all with the bore in the shape its in, and is there anything I could do to repair it? Another thing to think about is an excellent condition non sniper version runs around $300 here, but i just love the look of them with the original optics.

Any info or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Mark

 

[Joop]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Mark,

For the SVT, I have big doubts that it's a real sniper, for that price (even in Canada, that would be a steal for such a piece). The first thing you need to understand, is that almost all early SVTs had the slots for scope mounts machined into the sides of the rear receiver. This practice was abandoned some time in 1942, IIRC, when they stopped producing the SVT as a sniper. But, even of the early ones with the slots, very very few of them actually became snipers and those that did would also have a notch at the top rear of the receiver, for the mount (which are pretty much unobtanium, nowadays, but there are a lot of very convincing repros out there). As for the bore, most SVTs have at least a some frosting of the bore, since they're more difficult to take apart and clean. With that in mind, I would be even more concerned with the gas system. If the bore is bad, the gas system is probably even worse. With the availability and price of these, "north of the border", I think you can afford to be more picky about bore condition. Granted, few/none of them will be perfect, but you have more of them to choose from than us Yanks, so it shouldn't be hard to find one that's at least acceptable.

On the 91/30, is this a standard rifle with a bent bolt and standard irons sights, a sniper (repro or real), or an ex-sniper? For just a standard rifle with a bent bolt (assuming it's a more recent job and not an original sniper bolt), I think that price may be a little high. However, I'm not sure what the market is for them up there. So, I could be off. In any case, I would want to find out more details before making a decision. What year/arsenal and is it an actual sniper, etc.

John

 

[DerMeister]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Who put the screws in the stock on the SVT? That might explain the low price.

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mark,

For the SVT, I have big doubts that it's a real sniper, for that price (even in Canada, that would be a steal for such a piece). The first thing you need to understand, is that almost all early SVTs had the slots for scope mounts machined into the sides of the rear receiver. This practice was abandoned some time in 1942, IIRC, when they stopped producing the SVT as a sniper. But, even of the early ones with the slots, very very few of them actually became snipers and those that did would also have a notch at the top rear of the receiver, for the mount (which are pretty much unobtanium, nowadays, but there are a lot of very convincing repros out there). As for the bore, most SVTs have at least a some frosting of the bore, since they're more difficult to take apart and clean. With that in mind, I would be even more concerned with the gas system. If the bore is bad, the gas system is probably even worse. With the availability and price of these, "north of the border", I think you can afford to be more picky about bore condition. Granted, few/none of them will be perfect, but you have more of them to choose from than us Yanks, so it shouldn't be hard to find one that's at least acceptable.

On the 91/30, is this a standard rifle with a bent bolt and standard irons sights, a sniper (repro or real), or an ex-sniper? For just a standard rifle with a bent bolt (assuming it's a more recent job and not an original sniper bolt), I think that price may be a little high. However, I'm not sure what the market is for them up there. So, I could be off. In any case, I would want to find out more details before making a decision. What year/arsenal and is it an actual sniper, etc.

John </div></div>
John,

Thank you very much for the info it's greatly appreciated! In the description for the rifle it mentions a notch on the rear of the receiver but i just assumed they meant the slots. here's a copy of the description incase i'm overlooking anything else.

"Russian SVT-40 semi-auto rifle, cal. 7.62x54R, Tula dated 1942, Rare Original Issue Sniper rifle with notch on rear of receiver (Mounts and scope not available), only a very few rifles in stock, in VG+ condition inside and out and comes complete with ammo pouches, sling, and oil bottle , it is Arsenal refinished with electro-pencil numbers typical of Russian Post-War rebuilts, Matches except for magazine, Original un-butchered full lenght magazine pinned to 5 rounds, Two Re-enforcing screws at pistol grip area to repair the stock, Bore is dark with pitting, $400.00 Can + shipping. (Canadian F.A.C. or P.A.L. required). Firearms sold only to Canadian Buyers."

I'm also pretty skeptical seeing as i can't even find any others for sale and this spot has 3 different ones in stock right now. I'll probably request some pictures of it to get a better feel for what i'm looking at.

As for the 91/30 it is listed as an "Ex-sniper" but doesn't list the year or arsenal. I'm going to request more info on that one.

Thanks again for all the info!

Mark

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DerMeister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who put the screws in the stock on the SVT? That might explain the low price. </div></div>

I'm not sure who put them in, or when for that matter lol

 

[Joop]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MaritimesGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DerMeister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who put the screws in the stock on the SVT? That might explain the low price. </div></div>

I'm not sure who put them in, or when for that matter lol </div></div>
It sounds like typical Russian arsenal repairs. Not uncommon to find them on SVTs, or 91/30s. However, if I had to choose, I would take one without (with all else being equal, but "buy the bore" is my usual motto). The "cheap" price is due to the fact that they're in Canada, where they are still being imported. There haven't been any imported here for years and probably won't be. Therefore, our prices are about double.

I'm always skeptical of "the notch", but if one came in with a lot of refurbs that has it, but the others don't, it could be legit. Most of the ones I've seen, however, are fakes. But with a price difference in the thousands, you can see the appeal in faking them.

Let us know what else you find out. I'm not sure if you're familiar with what to look for on an original 91/30 sniper, but feel free to drop me a line if you need to.

John

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MaritimesGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DerMeister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who put the screws in the stock on the SVT? That might explain the low price. </div></div>

I'm not sure who put them in, or when for that matter lol </div></div>
It sounds like typical Russian arsenal repairs. Not uncommon to find them on SVTs, or 91/30s. However, if I had to choose, I would take one without (with all else being equal, but "buy the bore" is my usual motto). The "cheap" price is due to the fact that they're in Canada, where they are still being imported. There haven't been any imported here for years and probably won't be. Therefore, our prices are about double.

I'm always skeptical of "the notch", but if one came in with a lot of refurbs that has it, but the others don't, it could be legit. Most of the ones I've seen, however, are fakes. But with a price difference in the thousands, you can see the appeal in faking them.

Let us know what else you find out. I'm not sure if you're familiar with what to look for on an original 91/30 sniper, but feel free to drop me a line if you need to.

John </div></div>

It's too bad that people would hack up an original rifle to try and make it look like something it's not. I've sent an email off on both of the rifles and requested pictures of the notch. For the 91/30 am I correct in saying that I should be looking for a CH stamped on the receiver and plugged scope mounting holes to say it was a sniper at one point? I'll update this thread when I get a response email on the two.

Mark

 

[Joop]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

On the 91/30, what you'll be looking for will depend on a few things. If a true "ex-sniper", it will have the mount screws welded over and they may only be visible from inside the receiver. The pattern of these screws will depend on the type of mount, date of build and the arsenal in which it was built. The most common are the wartime PU snipers, which should be fairly easy to spot. The earlier PEM should be easy, as well, as they are also a side mount, but longer (however, the visible holes are actually closer together, or only one may be visible until you look up into the chamber area). A PE top mount can be harder to spot, since the mount was attached to the front of the receiver, by three screws on each side. These screws did not usually go all the way through, so you won't be able to see them from the inside. The remnants of the holes can sometimes be seen from the outside, but they've been welded over and refinished. I've seen some that were obvious and others that were invisible in all but the best lighting/angles.

Here are some examples to compare with.

Firt off, an ex-PU sniper (actually, two of them):

Here's a picture of a Tula arsenal, ex-PEM. You can see that only one main screw is visible in the bolt area and the other is near the chamber, hidden the forward receiver, unless you look inside. Now, on an Izhevsk arsenal PEM, there will be two screws visible, really close together, in the bolt area. However, this is actually the screw and the retaining pin for the base. Izhevsk usually drilled the pin holes all the way through the receiver, whereas Tula was less likely to do so.

Here are some photos of PE "top mount" snipers/ex-snipers. First, a Finn captured '36 Tula hex receiver, with the holes still present:

Here's a 1934 Tula Ex-PE sniper. Note the grind marks on the receiver. Not the best picture to show the welded over holes, but it does show remnants of a scope number. A number in this location (right front of receiver) is only found on Tula PE snipers and would have been underneath the mount base, once assembled:

PE with the mount/scope installed:

Markings are going to vary between arsenals and years. Tula made production snipers from 1932 to 1944. Most will be marked with the "Cn" (cyrillic SP) from '32 to '40 and "CH" (cyrillic SN) from '42-44 (and, if anyone finds a '41 Tula sniper, in any form, I have two testicles that you can have in trade!).

Prewar markings on a'36 Tula PE ("SA" and "D" marks are Finn):

Wartime markings on a '43 Tula PU:

Now, the most common snipers are Izhevsk arsenal and they did things a little differently. First off, I don't think they were doing full production of snipers until at least '41 or '42 and these would be PEM rifles, with PUs coming very late in '42. Izhevsk did not use the "Cn/CH" markings. However, most of them will have a scope number, remnants of one, or possibly more than one, on the left side of the barrel shank (chamber area), but NOT the receiver. It's important to make this distinction, as some importers have marked serial numbers on the left front of the receiver and they can be mistaken for a scope number by those who are not sure of what they're looking for. Scope numbers were sometimes ground off during refurbishment and the area may show evidence of that. Also, they may be lined/ or "*" over the numbers and a new number added (or not). A scope number on an Izhevsk PU should look something like this:

And, the Izhevsk arsenal markings are the triangle with arrow below date and serial number, as well as wreath/laurel with hammer/sickle above:

This is just a crash course and certainly nothing definitive. I would still strongly recommend getting good pictures and descriptions before buying, so that you can determine exactly what it is. There are plenty of variations and exceptions to the rules, but there are just as many puzzle pieces that could verify or debunk a specific piece.

John

 

[RMPSTRAT]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

I think the actual SVT40 snipers have a stamp in the top cover slot as well, indicator of an real SVT sniper

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Thanks so much for all the info, my knowledge has increased 10x since i posted this topic!

I received a response on both rifles today. The seller has a few ex-sniper 91/30s all war time Izhevsk examples.

I also received some pictures of the SVT-40!

Please share your opinions or any points you notice about the pictures,

Thanks

Mark

 

[Joop]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

The notch looks right, to me and I don't think this is being sold as something that it's not, especially at that price. The screws in the stock are the standard Russian repair for such a crack. The bore looks dark, but will probably clean up quite a bit with some TLC. Hard to say it's exact condition from the pics, though. Even if the notch was faked, it's still a good price for a rifle that's ready to build a sniper on. As for markings that were used specifically for SVT snipers, I really don't know for sure. Such things are a closely guarded secret among a few experts, given all the fakers out there. The man who could tell you would be Vic Thomas, over at Gunboards. PM him with the pics and see what he says.

John

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

I like the SVT-40, once did some limited handloading for one, and it responded quite nicely.

I tried a B-Square scope mount and conventional modern scope, and could never get the mount to stay put.

Popular wisdom about the SVT-40 is that as a Garand-equivalent, it falls short from the durability standpoint. If I wanted a .30 cal semiauto, I'd pick the Garand, and if I wanted it to be a sniper I'd go with the M1C configuration. The SVT-40 I worked with got shot some, for awhile, and has since languished in the rifle cabinet. My Garand comes out to play several times every year.

Pitted bores have tended to shoot better than I expected. I'd be more concerned about throats and crowns. Bore pitting and corrosive ammo go hand in hand. I'd shoot and clean as normal, and skip any 'repairs'; heirloom firearms please me best in their original state. Historic military firearms, even snipers, are still service rifles, and accuracy expectations should remain relatively modest.

If I wanted a Military bolt gun, I'd be looking at the Swedes first. They shoot really well when they're in a respectable shape.

Greg

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The notch looks right, to me and I don't think this is being sold as something that it's not, especially at that price. The screws in the stock are the standard Russian repair for such a crack. The bore looks dark, but will probably clean up quite a bit with some TLC. Hard to say it's exact condition from the pics, though. Even if the notch was faked, it's still a good price for a rifle that's ready to build a sniper on. As for markings that were used specifically for SVT snipers, I really don't know for sure. Such things are a closely guarded secret among a few experts, given all the fakers out there. The man who could tell you would be Vic Thomas, over at Gunboards. PM him with the pics and see what he says.

John </div></div>

Thanks, i just sent a message off to him and i'm interested to see what he says. Even if it doesn't turn out to be a real sniper I might pick it up anyway and put an original scope on it for a display/odd range day piece.

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the SVT-40, once did some limited handloading for one, and it responded quite nicely.

I tried a B-Square scope mount and conventional modern scope, and could never get the mount to stay put.

Popular wisdom about the SVT-40 is that as a Garand-equivalent, it falls short from the durability standpoint. If I wanted a .30 cal semiauto, I'd pick the Garand, and if I wanted it to be a sniper I'd go with the M1C configuration. The SVT-40 I worked with got shot some, for awhile, and has since languished in the rifle cabinet. My Garand comes out to play several times every year.

Pitted bores have tended to shoot better than I expected. I'd be more concerned about throats and crowns. Bore pitting and corrosive ammo go hand in hand. I'd shoot and clean as normal, and skip any 'repairs'; heirloom firearms please me best in their original state. Historic military firearms, even snipers, are still service rifles, and accuracy expectations should remain relatively modest.

If I wanted a Military bolt gun, I'd be looking at the Swedes first. They shoot really well when they're in a respectable shape.

Greg </div></div>

Thanks for the info, I love the Garands as well but they don't seem to be as common up here north of the border. I've found only one after looking for awhile, an International Harvester with the barrel dated 8-53 for $995.

I've got a thing for Russians though, so the SVT40 is alittle more appealing to me lol

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

I've always been intrigued by the SVT- but I've "read" that there can be real issues with the gas systems from the corrosive ammo.

To the effect that they can be badly damaged (eaten away from corrosion) and basically making the rifle useless...

Is there any truth to this, and if so, how would a buyer inspect, or protect, himself in this regard?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Can't say, the only Russian design I currently own is a Norinco SKS Simonov), which I love, but has no place in a Sniper Rifle discussion.

SVT-38/AVT-40/SVT-40

Greg

 

[Joop]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

In order to inspect the gas system, you'll have to do a complete tear down of the rifle. Unfortunately, it doesn't just take itself apart like an AK or SKS. This is exactly why cleaning them was often neglected. You can buy spare and even aftermarket parts to replace the commonly corroded/damaged ones.

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't say, the only Russian design I currently own is a Norinco SKS Simonov), which I love, but has no place in a Sniper Rifle discussion.

SVT-38/AVT-40/SVT-40

Greg </div></div>
Thanks for the link, lots of interesting information on there!

 

[DerMeister]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Those screws are Soviet. The bore doesn't look too bad IMO. It's what I would call frosted. If it hasn't been shot in a while, it may smooth out with some shooting. It won't affect anything.

Then again we can't exactly see the entire bore.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

I don't favor the AK for a few reasons.

The barrel is about 4" shorter than the basic SKS, whose barrel is the same 20.5" length as my Savage Scout rifle chambered for almost the same carrtidge (my Simonov uses the .311 bore, the Savage a .308).

By avoiding the D/M question, some issues are moot, and my SKS feeds adequately fast with strippers. One can even flip it belly up, pop the fixed magazine cover latch, drop in ten loose rounds, close the mag cover, and can call it a reload. Not elegant, but also faster than replenishing the mag from the top one round at a time through the open action.

I was able to gain insight into glassbedding my Garand by first subjecting my SKS to the process. The SKS responded very positively by simply adapting the Garand process. I used the adapted rifle to shoot several N/M Highpower Matches as my proof of marksmanship practice so I could apply for my DCM Garand. The little SKS hung in with the Garands at 200yd, and only slipped a bit at 300. For such medium distances, I think it exceeds the AK's performance by several notches.

I wouldn't even know where to begin with trying to accurize an AK via glass bedding. My best guess is that there's very little to be gained by trying to go that route.

Greg

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Got a message back from Vic at gunboards today, and he said everything looks good and he believes it's authentic! I'm kinda surprised to tell you the truth haha. Now I just need my license to hurry up and get here

 

[Joop]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MaritimesGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a message back from Vic at gunboards today, and he said everything looks good and he believes it's authentic! I'm kinda surprised to tell you the truth haha. Now I just need my license to hurry up and get here </div></div>

WIN!

....and, yes, I hate you!

John

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MaritimesGuy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a message back from Vic at gunboards today, and he said everything looks good and he believes it's authentic! I'm kinda surprised to tell you the truth haha. Now I just need my license to hurry up and get here </div></div>

WIN!

....and, yes, I hate you!

John </div></div>
A win for sure! I just hope it doesn't sell before my licences gets here. They can take up to 4-6 months to process in my area, i think the firearms office is gonna end up memorizing my number from the amount of times I've been calling asking what stage its in haha

 

[MaritimeGuy]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Well I can finally update this thread! I received my firearms license in the mail a few weeks ago(around the same time I was called away for the summer with the military) and while looking at a gun shop near the base I found myself a 1942 SVT-40 in awesome shape for $400 so naturally I had to pick it up along with 2 crates of Surplus ammo that was selling for a great price. As I was leaving the owner mentioned that he just got a shipment of Mosin Nagants that were still in the crate and covered in packing grease and offered me one for $50 because of all the business I just gave him. I jumped on it and said sure and walked out the door with a 1944 Izhevsk. As I got back "home" and started removing the layers of grease I found myself with a rifle in amazing shape and a very good bore. And upon further cleaning I realized I noticed the welded scope mounting holes and ground off scope number! I had just purchased an ex sniper for $50! I had some good luck on this trip for sure!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Dark Bore With Pitting SVT-40

Russian service firearms suffer from an unfair;y dark shading as the result of a lot of Cold War propaganda. Few, if any, ever died from Russian stupidity in the area of Russian service rifle shortcomings. They ere embodiments of Stalin's adage that 'Quantity has a quality all its own'. Just good enough and plenty of it became a large part of the Russian front line supply strategy.

Some of the age's Russian military artifacts fulfilled that adage in a grand manner. Some, like the SVT/AVT's, fell just a tad short. They worked well, but really needed a bit more beef to them.

I seem to seldom run short of amazement at the simple, sturdy functionality of Russian service gear. Having been at the American end of the two-way range facing Russian service equipment, I can tell you they are no joke. Americans can bleed just as red when shot with them.

Greg