Night Vision Day optic of choice when using a thermal clip-on

[Btar21]

I know this question is very subjective but wanted to get some thoughts on your preferred day optic behind a thermal clip-on.

My current set up is a Nightforce ATACR behind a UTC-XII. The the image is good however I am really struggling with the eye box when the clip on is in place. It is a new set up so the troubles may just be something I have not acclimated to. I am thinking of going to something with even less magnification as this is a dedicated night/clip on stick.

-I must assume that different types of scope glass translate the image better than others, what is the general opinion?

-I also must assume certain types of scopes have more eye box forgiveness than others? Does the clip on effect this at all?

-Is there any benefit to lager or smaller objective lens?

-Those with clip on experience, what's your favorite day optic?

 

[cantankerous]

I've only used clip on sights (old Apollo Pro, TigIR, and Simrad) on front of a few scopes, but it seems to me that day scopes with a larger field of view seem to give a slightly better image.
Strangely, between an old IOR 3-18, a Vortex 4.5-27, and an ancient Redfield LE9 (with a stupid big objective lense), the Redfield seems to give the best picture. I'm not completely sure why.

I hope to pick up another, more useful scope with a wide FOV to see if I'm right.

 

[Choid]

I don't think scope glass quality matters much behind a thermal clip on for the simple fact that you are just zooming in on a little video screen, so things like light transmission don't really matter, as you can always increase the clip on gain. It is nice to be able to see the entire menu on the UTC, so getting down to 3-4 is ideal. I like the Kahles k318i as much as I like anything behind mine. With NV clip ons, the scope makes a much bigger difference.

I don't think objective size matters as long as it is larger than the ocular on the clip on. Eyebox is going to affect scope performance in general, but not more with a clip on.

Remember, you are just looking at a computer screen.

 

[Burdy]

Low end of 2.5x, high end of 12-15x or LESS.

 

[wigwamitus]

With UTCs I use

L&S mk6 3-18x
NF NX8 2.5-20x

At about 2.7x you can see ALL the corners of the display, so below 2.7x you are "tunneling" ... 3x you can't see the corners but can see the edges. Somewhere between 3x and 4x you loose the edges.
So I sold all my 4x (on the bottom) scopes.

I normally use the UTCs on my bolt guns (308) and the two above scopes do everything I want to do night or day.

==
Occasionally I use the UTCs on my mk12s ... currently they have

L&S mk4 2.5-8x
NF NXS 2.5-10x

And those work fine with the UTCs ...

The low power is the most important because you don't want the day scope to be the limiting factor for your FOV, but below a certain power there is no benefit.
On the other hand, I want my 308s to be able to reach out to 900yds for record firing or even 1100yds for practice. So, I'd like at least 12x and preferably 15x on them. The 18x and 20x work fine on the top end.

When doing critter control, the vast majority of my shots are on low power ... as I'm normally sitting on low power scanning and have no need to dial up.

I have dialed up for longer shots. I think I dialed all the way up to 10x for a few shots, but had to check the power after the shot as I dialed it while aiming. 10x is the most I've ever used on a critter with the UTCs. For target shooting I've gone up to 16x.

 

[Squibbler]

I think this is an excellent question, and one that is generally overlooked in the scope manufac. biz. I've been on a quest to find that answer-- "What is the perfect clip-on scope?". Answer-- there is none. However, there are ones that are extremely close but not perfect, IMO.

My list of requirements for a perfect clip-on scope.

1. Good glass - don't want day optic glass being limiting factor in optical train
2. Large forgiving eyebox -easy to get behind for fast acquisition from scanner to rifle
3. Reduced overall length - to reach controls on clip-on better
4. Mag ratio to match the clip-on - so FFP reticle sizes match clip-on mag capabilities
5. Locking turrets - no dialing in the dark and accidental index is unacceptable to me.
6. FFP illuminated reticle with easy to see tree and clear identifiable 1mil holdover. I wanted FFP for true to size at all mag settings. Need illuminated to be able to see reticle against varying terrains or different pallette choices. I wanted tree for holdovers. I wanted landmark at 1mil holdover for quicker acquisition at low mags. Especially considering most of fast action target acquisition occurs within 1 mil. Reticles are the main user interface and their design can have a huge affect on the user performance.
7. Reduced weight - rigs are heavy enough with two optics on board, any weight savings is a plus.

Specifically for your question in regards to which scope for the UTC, my answer has been the ZCO 420. It is the best match to my priority list that I have found. The perfect mag ratio for UTC IMO is 3-15x. But I have found that I typically scan with UTC @ 5-6x. I can still see HPR and main menu @ 7x. Still see gain/brightness setting @ 8-9x. Comfortably and quickly acquire the smaller .2mil hash with all backgrounds @ 9-10x. The sweet spot for me with this combo is 10-12x, with regards to image/reticle pairing while aiming at acquired target. On the top end, I have used 15x to focus in on subtle critter movements while PID'ing. Otherwise can do up to 20x, but have not found it to be of further value for this combo.

So, my close second choice was TT315M with Gen 3XR. But non locking turrets was a deal breaker for me.
Third and fourth choice were Leupy Mk5 3.6-18 and ATACR 4-16x42. I no go'd the Leupy due to reticle design and expensive illumination. I canned the ATACR due to eyebox.

My perfect UTC scope would be a short 3-15 ZCO that is 30mm tube with MPCT3 reticle. For a gorgeous eyebox, close to perfect mag ratio for clip on, sub 30 oz. weight, short length, locking turret, mil circles in tree (providing easily identifiable landmarks in all backgrounds and mags for faster acquisition, especially for 1mil), and great glass.

Just some thoughts from my journey.

 

[Btar21]

Gents,
always, thanks for all the informative feedback.

Squibbler,
You noted that you opted away from nightforce due to the eye box. This is something I am specifically struggling with on my ATACR and wasn’t sure if it was just me until you mentioned it. I assume, but would like to confirm, do you find the zco or TT eye box more forgiving?

Does anyone have any time behind the new March wide angle? I am just curious how the eye box is. There is a lot of information around optical clarity but wonder about this particular aspect.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Hensoldt 3.5-26 is about as close to perfect that I have found. The ZCO 4-20 is on my list. I often hunt with LPVOs too.

if you’re scanning over 5x with a UTC, your better off with a dedicated helmet mounted thermal to take the FOV up.

 

[Squibbler]

Gents,
always, thanks for all the informative feedback.

Squibbler,
You noted that you opted away from nightforce due to the eye box. This is something I am specifically struggling with on my ATACR and wasn’t sure if it was just me until you mentioned it. I assume, but would like to confirm, do you find the zco or TT eye box more forgiving?

Yes, specifically in regards to eyebox I felt ZCO > TT > ATACR.

 

[Squibbler]

Hensoldt 3.5-26 is about as close to perfect that I have found. The ZCO 4-20 is on my list. I often hunt with LPVOs too.

if you’re scanning over 5x with a UTC, your better off with a dedicated helmet mounted thermal to take the FOV up.

Curious, what ya like about the Henny?

As far as scanning .... I agree. I should have explained further for my usage. I scan with helmet mounted or handheld on a lanyard for FOV. Then when transition to UTC I scan to last known location of critter. That's where I typically find myself at 5-6x for getting the reticle size I like, so if needed, can be quick on the trigger.

 

[cantankerous]

Keep in mind that the low power setting of the scope isn't the whole story. My IOR for instance, while it goes down to 3x, gives some obvious tunneling and a much smaller FOV than my LE9 (3-9).

With the LE 9 at 3x I can see all but the very corners of the display.
The TIG also has an advantage of the .8 digital magnification.
3x optical times .8 gives 2.4 net mag. Just remember to set it back to 1x digital for holds.

Does anyone have experience with the March 2.5-25 line? I've had my eye on them for clip on use.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Does anyone have experience with the March 2.5-25 line? ...

@Glassaholic

 

[SkyScrapin]

Curious, what ya like about the Henny?

As far as scanning .... I agree. I should have explained further for my usage. I scan with helmet mounted or handheld on a lanyard for FOV. Then when transition to UTC I scan to last known location of critter. That's where I typically find myself at 5-6x for getting the reticle size I like, so if needed, can be quick on the trigger.

Huge eye box, great eye relief, short, illuminated, dare I say… best glass available.

really the only thing I’m not fond of is the CW turrets, but I’m in the hold over camp so not a huge problem for me.

 

[Glassaholic]

@Glassaholic

2.5-25 is a SFP scope, I am just not excited about SFP scopes, switched all of them out years ago for FFP and haven't looked back, that said, I am kinda in love with the new 1.5-15x42 SFP, with the right reticle and turrets that thing would be a dream on a DMR/SPR rig.

 

[Glassaholic]

Huge eye box, great eye relief, short, illuminated, dare I say… best glass available.

How dare you, my TT is better than your Henny and it weighs a pound less, oh wait, I sold my TT

Always wanted the Henny 4-16x56, but Hensoldt needs to fire their reticle designer

 

[upSLIDEdown]

I'd look hard at the Leupy 3.6-18 MK5HD. It will probably be my next night rig scope behind my 30.

 

[cantankerous]

SFP kills it for me.

The 3.6-18 MK5 seems to offer almost everything I want.

I missed a shot once due to bumping and moving my elevation knob, probably when crawling under a barbwire fence. I've been a big fan of locking turrets since.



Edited to add: March has a FFP 3-24 that looks promising.
Guessing it doesn't have locking turrets though.

 

[upSLIDEdown]

Yep. MK5HD is FFP, locks on zero elevation, and windage is capped.

 

[Glassaholic]

Edited to add: March has a FFP 3-24 that looks promising.
Guessing it doesn't have locking turrets though.

I think you'll like what March has coming, rumors indicate some nice updates to the 3-24 on the horizon

 

[Squibbler]

This comment is not aimed at the March, cause I've never had in hand.
So maybe exception to the rule. Generally speaking, I haven't seen the benefits of these huge mag ratios that have been coming out. Especially when considering usage is with a clip on. Too me, high mag ratio is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Get higher mag at the expense of clarity and more tunneling.

For a good clip on scope, I'm looking for simple, clean, and good. Give me low end mag that can take advantage of all FOV that the clip on has to offer (don't want day optic to be limiting factor). Yet, still high enough mag for usage at 1k as a day optic. So, to me, that's like 2.5x 3x, 4x on the low end and 15x, 16x, 18x, 20x on the high end. For a clip on scope I'm more concerned with ease of use - less finicky, (eyebox, tunneling, clarity,) rather than higher mag. The limit for magnification is most likely going to be the clip on. With higher mag ratio scopes, I end up dealing with smaller reticle scale at the top end of my clip on magnification limit. Along with other end user compromises.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Especially when considering usage is with a clip on ...

I can't speak for the OP, but for me, I don't want a scope that is good for clipons. I want the day scopes that meet my requirements and then I want to use them with clipons.

I believe that the scopes I use on my rifles today are actually the same scopes I would use even if I had no clipons.

The full list:

Bolt gun scopes:

L&S mk6 3-18x T3 FFP
NF NX8 2.5-20x T3 FFP

Large Frame Stoner rifle scopes:

VO PST g2 2-10x MIL FFP
Trijicon Credo 2-10x MIL-Tree FFP

Small Frame Stoner rifle scopes:

L&S mk4 2.5-8x TMR SFP
NF NXS 2.5-10x MIL-R SFP

I want low power down there for more FOV. I've got my MK1EB already, so I don't particularly need 1x, I already got that. I want small and light because that gives me more mobility, up and down creek banks ... thru the woods, etc. I want enuff magnification to get first round hits on targets at my "fire for record" distances. But I don't want more magnification than I need because then the scopes get longer and heavier than I need.

 

[Nik H]

Huge eye box, great eye relief, short, illuminated, dare I say… best glass available.

really the only thing I’m not fond of is the CW turrets, but I’m in the hold over camp so not a huge problem for me.

I've been behind a Henny on a couple of occasions. If it had a CCW turret and a better reticle, it would be the best of the best

 

[Btar21]

I’m glad I asked the question, it opened up some new doors for certain. When considering some of the recommended glass that was good for a CO, I ultimately circled back to what Wig references above, of these which is best in daylight hours.

I ended up picking up a couple ZCO’s of two different mag ranges. I am yet to read a single bad review, I like the reticle design, and it appears one of my biggest issues with the NF (the eye box at mag or behind the clip on) should be a drastic improvement. This is not a knock on NF by any means, I have used the brand for many years and it’s an excellent product. It’s more so just some enlightenment, from being a member of the forum, of what’s else is out there and that maybe I don’t have to settle for the couple things I don’t love about it.

In short, I’m not certain if I will gain any advantage over my ATACR at night when the XII is mounted but after a ton of reading/research I do however expect to gain something when it’s not on and I’m using it during the day.

We will see tomorrow when I get the ZCO’s. I’ll give my thoughts once I do both during the day and at night.