DBM why so damn exspensive??

[cap2031]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Dave, Mike,

Your conversation highly interests me, as I think I'll be using both of these on my different tiered rifles.

Mike, is this DBM the one that Defiance is going to start shipping in a few weeks? I took a look at this one at SHOT show and it is very nice! However...talked to Josh last week...and I'm still not over the shell shock. I believe in all the features and from an engineering perspective the design is great.

I'm willing to pay for those features but I don't know about that price...its hard enough to talk customers into a rifle with a custom action and a quality stock, not to mention spending another standard Remington $ value on a DBM.

At the end of the day, we've got mouths to feed, and Dave's DBM helps get that done.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

A well known and respected member of the shooting community producing quality DBM's for $129?? This should get interesting and most likely change things up a bit.

 

[OKbow87]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

^^
Hopefully it will drive down the costs of others.

 

[kiff]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

I have a fellow you all know that will be selling our bottom metal and the stuff we make for Mr Stiller as a group buy in a few days. He will be in touch with me this week . The four of us involved will be shaking thing's up a bit. Jerry stiller has some of the best looking stuff we have ever machined. Take alook at his web site. I will see if we cant offer the Stealth short,Stealth CIP,Our new 338/300WM and Stillers Mil spec BDM's in one big buy. Thanks Dave

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A well known and respected member of the shooting community producing quality DBM's for $129?? This should get interesting and most likely change things up a bit. </div></div>

+1

Dave's comments were awesome, I really appreciate his candor.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Having had the priv. of visiting an operation or two......seeing the CNC machines and materials stockpile........things are not cheap, including programmers/oversight.

Not saying things couldn't be more competitive, just hope quality of materials and end product don't become compromised. Nor the r&d.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

All of us here that own/have owned our own businesses understand that there are a lot of variables that determine the pricing of our product, whatever it may be...

For example, my father was a builder many years ago. He and his partner decided to price their quality product at a rock bottom price- and make their $$ on volume. It worked... There were limited options, absolutely NO customization allowed, and people flocked to them for a lot of years, selling out an entire community on opening day.

By extension, I do believe a LOT of people, myself included, would buy a DBM if the cost were lower. For me, I don't<span style="font-style: italic"> need</span> one, but would <span style="font-style: italic">like</span> one...

So, is it worth a gamble by the manufacturers of these items to lower cost, and anticipate that demand will rise to the level that it generates a profit?

Naturally, the costs are the overriding factor. R&D costs per unit are obviously diluted as the volume increases, but other costs are more fixed- I'm sure there's a certain cost/hour for CNC machine time, the actual cost of the raw material used, etc. that also dictate price.

But I will agree, as someone totally ignorant of CNC machining and the costs associated with it, when you pick up a piece of aluminum the size of a piece of bottom metal, and the price tag
is $250 or more, you wonder why....

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OKbow87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^
Hopefully it will drive down the costs of others. </div></div>

Cheapening a product will never drive down the cost....only the price.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to copy the Magazine Pre-Load....R&D at its finest.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

So this just came to me and it may a really dumb idea but nevertheless its an idea. Is there anyone out there that knows of a material that could be used other than metal products, like composites of some time (something like carbon fiber) that would work well for this application? Could definitely use metal componets for things such as mag release, springs and such... I know if there is such a composite that would be strong enough and versitle enough that it could easily be mass produced and cost/price would drop dramatically. like i said before just a random idea that popped in my head as i was reading through my original post.

 

[johninok]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

There is a guy selling some that look just like badgers metal with AI mags on ebay for around $250, they look pretty well made.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Regarding composite materials, you always have to keep in mind that most guys want to be able to bet their lives on their rifles functionming correctly. Yes, Howa has made synthetic DBM bottom metal, but I'm sure they invested a lot of R&D on insuring it would hold up.

But seeing how many great choices there are now for aluminium DBM kits, I'll stick with a machined product.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Basic Economics of Business 101

When talking similar product lines;

Lower Priced Products, there will always be a market for these, no matter the product. High volume sales & shipping of large quantities are the name of the game.

Mid Priced Products, very small to moderate consumer audience and sales are usually lost to the lower/higher priced product. Sales never equal the high/low priced product lines.

High End, Expensive Products, like the lower priced products, there will always be a market for these. Quality of the product in function and appearance will always sell itself. Consumers that can tell/see the difference and appreciate the quality will always be drawn to this product and come back for more.

If talking the same exact product line, price will always drive the market and a low down dirty cheap price will be the deciding factor.

I'm in it for high end quality and extreme accuracy. Price points are never my deciding factor in component selection, personal or professional, rifles or tools.

And just an FYI, no, I didnt study business economics but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

I would agree....(and I do have a degree in Economics...)

But as I said above, any manufacturer is going to price it's product based at least somewhat upon anticipated volume. It's the only way I know of to spread fixed overhead to a cost per unit...

Guessing that the piece of aluminum that makes up the bottom metal can't be all that expensive, we have the time on the CNC machine to account for and that's the bulk of the direct costs...Indirect costs, OVH & P make up the rest- and I would GUESS, the majority of the cost of these items.

If you spread those costs over 20,000 widgets, instead of 2,000...

Of course, it's up to the manufacturer of the Widgets to know what they anticipate demand would be at "$X" per unit- and that's where the fun comes in...

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would agree....(and I do have a degree in Economics...)

But as I said above, any manufacturer is going to price it's product based at least somewhat upon anticipated volume. It's the only way I know of to spread fixed overhead to a cost per unit...

Guessing that the piece of aluminum that makes up the bottom metal can't be all that expensive, we have the time on the CNC machine to account for and that's the bulk of the direct costs...Indirect costs, OVH & P make up the rest- and I would GUESS, the majority of the cost of these items.

If you spread those costs over 20,000 widgets, instead of 2,000...

Of course, it's up to the manufacturer of the Widgets to know what they anticipate demand would be at "$X" per unit- and that's where the fun comes in... </div></div>

This is all very true and the words of Roscoe ring true as well. For some, the goal is to spread overhead over 20,000 in lieu of a smaller quantity because price is the focus. In order to do this, machining techniques and tooling choices have to support it. Overall, quality and elegance is the cost of a lower price, and this cost is borne by the end user.

There's a huge difference between machining a feature with a key cutter and machining the same feature with a custom made tool that promotes elegance and overall functionality.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Hopefully, the top tier builders that are charging the upper prices are still putting out quality material(s) / products.

The industry doesn't need a bunch of crazy glue sniffers building "Tactical'' labeled products of 7075 or aircraft grade aluminum from china or mexico.
And products don't need a guarantee on the box.........I mean, who knows what's coming next, but I hope someones daughter doesn't get knocked up, i've seen it a hundred times.

In seriousness, I would hope their names - Badger, Surgeon, Seekins etc.....and good old integrity/ingenuity would continue to prevail as why products get built with high grade materials and craftsmanship. I'll pay a fair price for known quality and CS.

(RIP chris farley)

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Quality sells itself, regardless of the manufacturer or price.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

I think "fair" price is where the issue lies.

Based on Dave's comments regarding the quality of a $300+ DBM, and most importantly the PRICEPOINT he's prepared to meet, the current DBM market does appear to be inflated. I've little doubt Dave knows what his costs are, and if he says that price is doable, I believe him.

I realize economies of scale, and do believe price can match the quality of an offering in some instances, but not always. Whatever the case, I am really looking forward to seeing what PT&G comes up with.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Dave is top of tyhe heap in this community and I don't think anyone here can question him, but I do hope someone points out to him the fact that premium scope rings are going for $200.00 as well.

 

[cypriss32]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Its not about the stuff that makes up the product, its only 20.00 TOPS worth of metal. Its all the R&D and Machines used to build this shit. These CNC machines are like 500,000 to 2 million. How you gona sell bottom metal for 100.00 each, you gotta sell a SHIT LOAD..... Trust me, its worth it.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

First, I know Dave has nothing but good intentions. He's trying to do right by his client base and $129 for his DBM is more than a fair price for the product.

Rule 2 though in the business world is charge what the market will bear.

Why else do FFP scopes start upwards of $2,000, some triggers $300, scope ring and base sets $300, Some chassis systems $1,100+.

Supply and demand, the end.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

Ive personally handled one Daves DBMs and without knowing it was his I was extremely impressed. And having owned or used nearly all the DBMs out there his was as well designed, made and finished as any of the ones out there,PERIOD.

 

[darkstar]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kiff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a fellow you all know that will be selling our bottom metal and the stuff we make for Mr Stiller as a group buy in a few days. He will be in touch with me this week . The four of us involved will be shaking thing's up a bit. Jerry stiller has some of the best looking stuff we have ever machined. Take alook at his web site. I will see if we cant offer the Stealth short,Stealth CIP,Our new 338/300WM and Stillers Mil spec BDM's in one big buy. Thanks Dave</div></div>

Hey Dave,
When do you think you will be announcing the group buy? I am sure it will generate a lot of interest.
Best of luck with you product release.
Regards,
DS

 

[Red_SC]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good luck.

I bought a 12 year old rifle, a Dakota Arms Longbow in .338 LM, last month and would like to add a DBM to it.

No dice.

I have contacted no fewer than 8 different manufacturers who have summarily told me no, there's no DBM unit made for that gun. Even the guy who built the gun, now at GAP, says there isn't one.

Here's the thing. Screw the CAD/CAM and all that, how about basic gunsmithing?

A bottom metal unit is made by at least a half dozen companies in that caliber.

How about some simple cutting and welding in an extension to make up the half inch space between a Rem 700 LA action screw spacing and the 8 inches on the Dakota and doing some simple machining to fit, make sure the base metal and magazine line up and work every time.

I haven't found anyone who is up to the task.

You haven't spoken to gunsmiths, and neither have I apparently. I can use a dremel (or a 3 axis mill) to cut and paste to fit a STANDARD unit as well as the next WECSOG gunsmith, but I don't have the welding equipment, skills, or tools and experience to make a NON-standard unit from parts. Couple hours labor, milling, trimming, fitting. Cost? It was a $3,000 rifle. Shoots fine. I just want options and would pay for them.

Rant mode off.

Like I said, good luck. Your fix sounds simple. </div></div>

See here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3206330

 

[kiff]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??

We are talking with the Gent now . Soon very soon...

 

[normbal]

Re: DBM why so damn exspensive??


See here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3206330[/quote]

Good luck.

I saw that.

PM'd him and we're talking.

Thanks.