DDm4 V7 Groupings

[GoatLD259]

Good Afternoon Hide

I recently purchased a DDm4 V7. I finally got some time to shoot it as I have been working a lot lately.

I want to know if these grouping are ok. I was using my DDm4 V7, with an EoTech HWS 518-2 with a G33 magnifier. I was using my Armageddon shooting bag on the rear, and a backpack on the front. The Ammo I was using was 69 grain .223 Rem BTHP. The rifle is a 1/7, 5.56 caliber.

This was my grouping at 50 yards,

This was my best grouping at 100 yards. I’m just concerned if this is good or not? I feel it should be better.

Yes, I know the targets I was using were intended for 25 and 50 yards, but it all works the same.

So, is my 100 yard grouping off, or about right?

Thank you.

Goat

 

[Trigger Monkey]

It's fine, I don't see anything there to be concerned about.

 

[GoatLD259]

I was just concerned because my buddy was talking about hitting 10” steel at 400 yards with his JP, using only 55 grain. I’m not sure what optic he was using though. I’m just concerned if the groupings should be tighter at 100 yards.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Don't try to compare what a DD can do compared to a JP, it's not apples to apples. The DDM4V7 isn't exactly a match grade set up but you were still pulling off about 1 3/4" with a magnified EOTech, I'm guessing DD's standard trigger, and somebody's 69 BTHP load, that ain't bad.

 

[GoatLD259]

Yes, it is DD’s standard trigger, and the ammo was Winchester 69 grain match ammo. That’s also why I was questioning it.

 

[Swamppy]

I feel you are good for the optic you are using. I have a 1x8 on my and it shoots sub half MOA. I think your optic is limiting you on tiny groups.

 

[Molon]

. . . the ammo was Winchester 69 grain match ammo.

Most quality factory loaded ammunition topped with the 69 grain Sierra MatchKing is capable of producing sub-MOA 10-shot groups when fired from a precision AR-15. That doesn't mean that your chrome-lined, NATO chamber barrel will do the same.

...

 

[GoatLD259]

Everyone, thank you for the input, it is very much appreciated. I did consider maybe the optic could be limiting me as well.

And yes, it is not a match grade barrel.

Goat

 

[Asiparks]

Your group at 25 is tight, I'd guess because the size of the dot relative to the target allows you to aim more precisely at the same point on the target. I have a DDm4V7 10"-ish barrel, on occasion I've done 1" at 100, sometimes 2", depending on ammo and coffee.
I find that more magnification ( like a 1-6 or 1-8) and an etched reticle helps me be sure that I'm aligning my POA at the same spot consistently. My eyes can't do that with a red dot.
I dont really shoot for groups - if I can put two mags into a fist sized group at 100 yards, that's plenty good enough for me.
There's also the ammo, it might be great with the 69 boat tails, it might be better ( or worse) with something else. I have no doubt that you could regularly hit a 10" target at 400- that's just practice.

I hated the trigger. It's appaling for a gun that cost this much- I dropped in a cheap, single stage Rise 140, that made everything 200% better

 

[GoatLD259]

Your group at 25 is tight, I'd guess because the size of the dot relative to the target allows you to aim more precisely at the same point on the target. I have a DDm4V7 10"-ish barrel, on occasion I've done 1" at 100, sometimes 2", depending on ammo and coffee.
I find that more magnification ( like a 1-6 or 1-8) and an etched reticle helps me be sure that I'm aligning my POA at the same spot consistently. My eyes can't do that with a red dot.
I dont really shoot for groups - if I can put two mags into a fist sized group at 100 yards, that's plenty good enough for me.
There's also the ammo, it might be great with the 69 boat tails, it might be better ( or worse) with something else. I have no doubt that you could regularly hit a 10" target at 400- that's just practice.

View attachment 7577085

I hated the trigger. It's appaling for a gun that cost this much- I dropped in a cheap, single stage Rise 140, that made everything 200% better

Thank you for the response. However, that tight grouping is from 50 yards. I know the target says 25, but it’s what I had at the time.

I’m considering purchasing a Giessele SSA-E trigger, but not sure if I want a two stage or single stage trigger.

Goat

 

[Trigger Monkey]

It’s kind of hard to beat a Geissele SSA or SSA-E. I run SSA-E triggers in my SPR and Recce carbines because it works very well in those roles where I need a lighter trigger, no adjustments to come loose, and excellent ignition reliability. I have two “GP” carbines that aren’t really match grade guns, they shoot about like yours, but at the end of the day they’re blasters so they get single stage triggers and they work just fine. One of them breaks at about 5 lbs in stock form, the other one I dropped a JP Enhanced Reliability spring kit into and it dropped it from about just under 7 lbs to right about 5 1/2 lbs.

 

[GoatLD259]

It’s kind of hard to beat a Geissele SSA or SSA-E. I run SSA-E triggers in my SPR and Recce carbines because it works very well in those roles where I need a lighter trigger, no adjustments to come loose, and excellent ignition reliability. I have two “GP” carbines that aren’t really match grade guns, they shoot about like yours, but at the end of the day they’re blasters so they get single stage triggers and they work just fine. One of them breaks at about 5 lbs in stock form, the other one I dropped a JP Enhanced Reliability spring kit into and it dropped it from about just under 7 lbs to right about 5 1/2 lbs

I was considering this trigger

https://geissele.com/ssp-m4-curved-bow.html

The question I am curious about is the trigger breaks at 3-3.75 lbs. Would I have to be selective on my Ammo that I use? For example, on my CZ Shadow 2, I have an ultra lite kit from Cajun Gun Works, with the lightest hammer spring they offer. It is recommended I only use Ammo that uses federal primers as they are the lightest in the industry. Would the trigger above be the same scenario? The trigger is so light I could only use federal primers?

This gun is just a blaster, not my precision rifle.

Goat

 

[Trigger Monkey]

No, in my experience Geissele triggers are not ammo sensitive. If I remember correctly I watched a video from Geissele where Bill said he uses what are essentially GI weight springs so that the hammer velocity is kept up to ensure reliable ignition.

 

[Last Chance]

Everyone, thank you for the input, it is very much appreciated. I did consider maybe the optic could be limiting me as well.

And yes, it is not a match grade barre

Thank you for the response. However, that tight grouping is from 50 yards. I know the target says 25, but it’s what I had at the time.

I’m considering purchasing a Giessele SSA-E trigger, but not sure if I want a two stage or single stage trigger.

Goat

The mil-spec trigger on my inexpensive Windom Arms AR-15 was HORRIBLE...I put in a Giessele 2-stage trigger and it made all the difference in the world.... Well worth the money!!!

 

[bfoosh006]

It could very well be, your rifle doesn't like the Winchester 69gr.

IE , try not to draw any conclusions from a sample of "one".

I also would allow some additional barrel break-in.

I also use the top of the dot ( 12:00 ) as my aiming point, so I don't cover the point of aim with the glowing blob of the dot. ( Molon taught me this in one of his threads )

 

[308pirate]

I was just concerned because my buddy was talking about hitting 10” steel at 400 yards with his JP, using only 55 grain. I’m not sure what optic he was using though. I’m just concerned if the groupings should be tighter at 100 yards.

You sound like someone pretty new to shooting. Am I right?

 

[GoatLD259]

You sound like someone pretty new to shooting. Am I right?

I grew up hunting, spent a few years in the Marine Corps, and just started USPSA last year, this will be my second season. I was not as in depth into shooting until I’d say about two years ago. And I’m still learning a lot.

Why do you ask?

Goat

 

[308pirate]

I grew up hunting, spent a few years in the Marine Corps, and just started USPSA last year, this will be my second season. I was not as in depth into shooting until I’d say about two years ago. And I’m still learning a lot.

Why do you ask?

Goat

I always like to know the context of the question before I give an answer. The questions you were asking are indicative, to me, of someone with not a lot of rifle experience.

Those groups are fine considering the rifle that you shot them with.

 

[GoatLD259]

I always like to know the context of the question before I give an answer. The questions you were asking are indicative, to me, of someone with not a lot of rifle experience.

Those groups are fine considering the rifle that you shot them with.

Ok ok. Thank you though. I’m always open to advice and am still learning a lot.

Goat

 

[tuckybill]

If your going to use factory ammo try to find some black hills 77 sierra. Sit down at a range on a still day without wind. A trigger won't make your rifle one tiny bit more accurate just makes it easier to draw the accuracy out of the gun. A nice 10+ power scope is the same way. Really your groups are not bad. Don't be believing in the "1/2 MOA steel cased ammo all day" postings. Your DD is shooting fine.

 

[houndog]

As others have said, nothing wrong with your groups considering your current set-up. Geissele (or LaRue MBT) trigger should help tighten things up. So would a 10x or greater scope with the right reticle. And experiment with different types/brands of ammo. 69gr and 77gr FGMM. Hornady 68gr or 75gr Match, Black Hills, etc. With a 1/7 twist I suspect bullets that are 60gr and up will work best. For something cheaper try PPU Match or IMI Razorcore. (Well, it used to be a little more reasonably priced). If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, you can start loading your own.

Plus, the more you shoot the better your own technique will be. (If you're like me I suspect .2-.3 MOA of most 5 shot groups you shoot will be on you not the gun). Before you know it you may find your groups shrinking down to around 1 MOA, which is honestly more accuracy than you need for a rifle that's designed for reliability and that will be shot primarily under 100 yards with occasional steel out to 400.

 

[Near miss]

My advise, buy some bulk and build your shooting position so that the sight always returns on target. When that is done, start refining it with some match ammo.

 

[diggler1833]

1. Anything under 2 MOA with a red dot (even with a magnifier) is perfectly fine. That would, in theory, be more than enough to reliably hit 10" steel at 400 yards...in real world application though environmental factors as well as your ability to see the 10" plate may contribute to a few more misses.

2. Not all "match" ammo is all that damn "match". As others have said, find some other brands and weights and give those a try. When I was peckering around with factory match ammo back in the day, I only had one rifle ever show a preference for the Winchester stuff.

3. Even buddies may exaggerate from time to time on how accurate their rifle is, how big their trophy fish was, the size of their last shit etc... Don't break the bank on your combat rifle chasing something that somebody else claims with a purpose built rig for target/competition.

FWIW, I have a DDM4V7 with EOTech as my HD rifle (no magnifier), and it is a very solid 2 MOA rig (10 shot groups from a rest) at 50 and 100 yards with just about every premium defensive load I've tried in it. I suspect that I'm the limiting factor, but it is still way more accuracy than needed for in and around my house.

 

[whawk]

Sounds right. I've got the DD heavy barrel and it groups just a bit tighter.