Gunsmithing Decent setup for a new builder?

[RobertB]

Looking into starting to build my own rifles.

It's what I've always wanted to do and I have a great place to do it and I'm super blessed to have 2 really great smiths that will mentor me. Both of them build great rifles but they are not setup for fluting which wont be a super big deal to me right now.

I'm wanting to learn how to do it right?

How big of a lathe is recommended for a guy to have to accomplish everything needed for building precision rifles?

Are there any certain models that stand out?
I'm looking on Grizzlys site and see many.

I'm sure that the mill will need to be chosen carefully too.
I know an old man that might can help me get setup when he sells his old kit. Old black and decker said to be made by SOuthBend. I hear they are good and some guys say ehh, not the best.

So what would a one man shop need to do good work. I wouldn't buy my rifles from top name smiths if I didn't care about having the best. I want these machines to be able to produce great rifles. I want to be the weak link for now.


Any info will be greatly appreciated.

THanks!

 

[Matabele]

Have a look on YouTube for some reviews done by Jay Tee, he has a Grizzly G0709 lathe and a G9901 mill. He seems to be extremely happy with his equipment and by the sounds of it, knows machining. Precision Matthews has been getting some great reviews for lathes, they are made in Taiwan which some seem to think is superior to Chinese made equipment. Don't know enough myself to be able to comment on that. We use a old Harrison English made lathe, it must be a 12"x36", for just about everything from making screws, firing pins, custom bolt knobs and threading barrels for silencers. We just got a Colchester Master 2500 retrofitted with a DRO, for a specific task and it's a awesome piece of gear although havnt used it that much yet. Hope that helps some.

Let us know what you decide to go with and good luck on your venture.

 

[Bugholes]

If you have two great smiths to mentor you, I'd be asking them this question. If they use big machines to build rifles than that's likely the way you're gonna learn. You'll find many guys chamberings throught the headstock on machines in the 12x36 to 14x40 size. I don't see or hear of many using machines larger than that. I've switched to a VFD machine and won't ever go back. It's my belief that your mill requirements will be rather low, mill work is almost always small light cuts as is other Gunsmithing work. I have an old Bridgeport, but know several guys who are running newer Enco/MSC type machines and have never encountered any limitations on them. Get a DRO on the lathe, get one for the mill if you're going to be doing Sako/M16 extractor mods, etc

 

[RobertB]

If you have two great smiths to mentor you, I'd be asking them this question. If they use big machines to build rifles than that's likely the way you're gonna learn. You'll find many guys chamberings throught the headstock on machines in the 12x36 to 14x40 size. I don't see or hear of many using machines larger than that. I've switched to a VFD machine and won't ever go back. It's my belief that your mill requirements will be rather low, mill work is almost always small light cuts as is other Gunsmithing work. I have an old Bridgeport, but know several guys who are running newer Enco/MSC type machines and have never encountered any limitations on them. Get a DRO on the lathe, get one for the mill if you're going to be doing Sako/M16 extractor mods, etc

I did that one both agree that I probably cant find the machines they use and can probably work easier with modern equipment. I'm still looking into that but knew that there were several knowledable people here on this site. I'm just trying to get as much info as I can. THeyre saying that 100K wont be hard to spend LOL These are veterans of the trade in local BR stuff and I don't really believe they keep up too much with other equipment. Just know what they use. I want to get something I can learn to use as the new market seems like a good place to shop. But I will keep on with the used. Just hard to check it out and see what kind of condition its in. Thanks.

Is the Grizzly stuff any good?

 

[ugsly]

I did that one both agree that I probably cant find the machines they use and can probably work easier with modern equipment. I'm still looking into that but knew that there were several knowledable people here on this site. I'm just trying to get as much info as I can. THeyre saying that 100K wont be hard to spend LOL These are veterans of the trade in local BR stuff and I don't really believe they keep up too much with other equipment. Just know what they use. I want to get something I can learn to use as the new market seems like a good place to shop. But I will keep on with the used. Just hard to check it out and see what kind of condition its in. Thanks.

Is the Grizzly stuff any good?

What is your budget? If I was going to get a new manual lathe I would look at the 13x40VS sharp lathe

Casey

 

[Boltfluter]

What is your budget? If I was going to get a new manual lathe I would look at the 13x40VS sharp lathe

Casey

+1 sharp makes a great product for the price. Good luck in your new venture. Sounds like a lot of fun and awesome to have a couple of mentors to get you going in the right direction. Let the games begin. Looking forward to some pics of your work in the near future.



Regards, Paul

 

[slayer_21420]

Grizzly stuff can be excellent or it can be kinda crappy. They are one of, if not the largest machinery dealers out there and they offer a wide variety of price ranges. Obviously if you pick the cheapest of everything it might leave you wishing for more.

That being said, the 12x36 G4003G at $3250 is a good little machine and is capable of building an amazing rifle.

I bought it's bigger brother the G0709 14x40 for $4500, and think it's an amazing machine for the $$. More than capable of handling anything I throw at it.

If I wanted to spend twice as much I would've opted for the G0509G 16x40, it's 3 phase and has a greater range of speeds. All in all it seems like a Cadillac of the imported lathe world for gun work.

Keep in mind, you'll be spending at least as much on tooling as you do on the machine so make sure that's in your budget.

I could've bought the 0509 but all I'd be doing is staring at it unable to afford all the other items that go along with this wonderful hobby lol.

What is your price range?

Good luck and have fun!

Steve

 

[MikeeBooshay]

I think you have to ask what is your expected budget? If you are trying to get out on a shoestring, I think I'd give you a couple suggestions one way, if you really do have 100k to spend, I'd probably send you off in a slightly different direction, nicer machines, higher costs, much more capability and ease of operations.

Hard to go wrong with a decent bridgeport mill, there's plenty out there, you can get a refurbed one for only a little more than a old one, and you won't have to fix anything wrong with it, the oilers will all work, backlash should be minimal, etc. Get a modern DRO that does bolt circles etc, you'll be able to make a lot of tooling with this, probably more than actual smith work.

Do you have 3 phase power, or are you going to need a RFC or VFD?

Previous level of machining experience? If little, for sure a DRO, digital readout, installed, you won't have the skills or ability to install one yourself more than likely. Or, you'll do it and have to re-do it later.

And what kinds of rifles are you planning to build? I've got one lathe that I rarely use, except when I have a mongo sized barrel I need to thread and chamber, it's a good piece of equipment, but I wouldn't recommend it for a first lathe or only lathe, it is harder to use, but has a honking big 2" hole thru the headstock/spindle for big barrels. The 4 jaw for it though is 100 pounds plus, you don't just "decide" you are changing that for a spider or something else.

Fluting is not that a big deal - just order the barrel with it already done, if it is a Bartlein. You won't see many BR rifles with it, most of those guys are convinced it doesn't help any, and might hurt. Looks cool though.

Save money for a couple roll around tool chests, resist urge to make it a work bench. It will save you walking across shop to get something you need. Get the side shelf, to add a place to make notes, write in your book etc. I have a book, with a page for every barrel I chamber, I can re-do that barrel with out having the rifle in hand, or action out of a glued in stock, with the data in the book.

Craigslist is your new best friend. Every day, lots of decent measuring tools for sale there. Buy in person, have cash, and get a better deal. Most guys have extra stuff not in the ad, go prepared.

If you can elaborate a bit on your ideas and plans, there are a lot of smart people on here, some are already posting in this thread, I'm sure you'll get some info that will help.

 

[Red_SC]

Grizzly stuff can be excellen
If I wanted to spend twice as much I would've opted for the Taiwan made G0509G 16x40, it's 3 phase and has a greater range of speeds. All in all it seems like a Cadillac of the imported lathe world for gun work.

On the spec sheet, Grizzly lists the country of origin for that lathe as China. They really need to do a better job of advertising which of their lathes are fron Taiwan without having to dig for it.

Edit: looking in the Grizzly book, the only lathe marked "Made in Taiwan" is the G0670 at $14,995.

 

[slayer_21420]

On the spec sheet, Grizzly lists the country of origin for that lathe as China. They really need to do a better job of advertising which of their lathes are fron Taiwan without having to dig for it.

Edit: looking in the Grizzly book, the only lathe marked "Made in Taiwan" is the G0670 at $14,995.

Huh, good to know. I always thought that one was Taiwan but I guess not.

Regardless of country of origin, I have been in the presence of the 0509 and it is a fine machine. If you have a lot of cash to throw around you could get something of higher quality, but I doubt that it'd produce a better part in the end.

 

[jonaddis84]

I thought the same thing about the 509 until I stopped at a showroom to look at one, was greatly disappointed seeing it in person as it looks like such an amazing machine on paper.

 

[RobertB]

Awesome, thanks guys. No I cant spend 100K

I can probably spend 15 or so but I would like to get by as cheap as I can without sacrificing too much. (WHo wouldn't. RIght?)

We own the building that the government rents for the post office that's in out yard and theyre talking about going rural route so the building will become available and we also will be closing down our hair salon that both building are right beside each other and offer a GREAT place to work and expand. I want to do this very bad. It's something that I plan to quit my dayjob over......ONEDAY grin.

I understand the tooling will cost more and that's OK. I will buy somethings over time but I really want to do this. I want to do a few myself and then a few friends will risk some stuff on me. Then after a while...who knows. It's always been a dream and I'm tired of not giving this short and precious life all I got.

I want a rig that can handle any type of precision rifle stuff....Big heavy benchrest stuff to short barrels to maybe making suppresors (legally). But I want to focus on rifles and what it takes to do it.

I cant thank you guys enough for helping me out. If 15K isn't enough to do it let me know so I can plan farther. I will have more to spend later but hate on coming off of too much right now. Good things come to those who wait. Right?

Like I said, I don't want to cut any corners and want to get a capable machine the first time around. I don't think moving those suckers around will be the easiest thing to do.


Again, Thanks!

 

[RobertB]

And I'm not above buying used/refurbed stuff either

 

[Rprecision]

Looking into starting to build my own rifles.

It's what I've always wanted to do and I have a great place to do it and I'm super blessed to have 2 really great smiths that will mentor me. Both of them build great rifles but they are not setup for fluting which wont be a super big deal to me right now.

I'm wanting to learn how to do it right?

How big of a lathe is recommended for a guy to have to accomplish everything needed for building precision rifles?

Are there any certain models that stand out?
I'm looking on Grizzlys site and see many.

I'm sure that the mill will need to be chosen carefully too.
I know an old man that might can help me get setup when he sells his old kit. Old black and decker said to be made by SOuthBend. I hear they are good and some guys say ehh, not the best.

So what would a one man shop need to do good work. I wouldn't buy my rifles from top name smiths if I didn't care about having the best. I want these machines to be able to produce great rifles. I want to be the weak link for now.


Any info will be greatly appreciated.

THanks!

I was in your position about 8 years ago, I have a Lathe + Mill. I am as blue collar as it gets so here is how I got it done.

First Off, before you go all willy nilly, some formal machining education is extremely helpful. I has lucky enough to take some vocational machining classes in High School. What I learned (Manual Machines) has been invaluable in my smithing endeavor. Additionally, I learned a good bit about machines which helped me later too. Classes can be found for fairly inexpensive at most community colleges and vocational schools.

My lathe is a used Rockwell which I bought used from a machining company who was going to probably scrap it. Its a 12-24 which actually has closer to 32" between centers. More important I can stick a 1 3/4" stock through the spindle. Initially, the feed wouldn't work, motor went out. I later learned the lathe was assigned to the army, came with its own stand, chucks, collets, etc. Its a variable belt drive which is wired to run on 110 or 220 single phase. Its ran great on 110. I have done some significant work including a new cross screw, motor and ton lot of elbow grease. I have chambered 6ish guns, so far only one has been flop, which I recently re-chambered and is unbelievably accurate.

Here is what I learned:

1) Take your time and buy the right equipment for you. 2) Avoid cheap Chinese crap, Tooling, Measurment tools, cutting tools, Etc. 3) You can produce quality work on a moderately worn out machine provided you have the right foundation to work with.

I ended up buying a Taiwanese Mill, as far as imports go they are on top. My current limiting factor is my shop which is embarrassingly small. I would have preferred a Bridgeport sized mill but that is life.

Here is my mill

KBC 7x 31 Table Universal Vertical Milling Machine 1.1/2HP Motor 1PH

I found having a mill was not as important as I thought to chambering guns. I did however save money and found it incredibly handy. I built a number of tools including a action truing jig which saved money. I could probably flute on my mill but as was discussed above doing so on a finished blank has never seemed smart to me.

If I had a bigger, or rather when I have a bigger shop, one of the G series Grizzly Lathes may be the ticket. I know they stand behind their product and offer very good customer service.

If you have the money jump right in, if your on a budget make it a process rather then a event. There are a lot of basics you can learn yourself and with the guidance of your friends. Nothing replaces the solid foundation of machining basics, which I often have to learn again.............

Good luck

 

[RobertB]

Thanks sir. Yes, I plan on learning from people classes on not so much on my mistakes...yet. Thanks. So what size lathe does everybody agree on being a good size for making precision rifles. Like I said, that's all I care to do on it.

 

[slayer_21420]

The size of the lathe itselfs doesn't matter all that much, look at the size of the spindle bore, the length through the headstock, and the range of speeds it offers. I feel that those are the most important factors in a lathe to be used for rifle building.

The reason I chose the G0709 is because it has an adequate spindle bore diameter (1-9/16") a decent range of speeds, and I can easily run a 24" blank through the headstock with the 4 jaw chuck, even shorter with a spider chuck. With your budget of $15k I think this machine may be a good option for you. It'll do everything on your list and more for around $4500.

 

[Bugholes]

I started with a cheap Chinese lathe (Birmingham 1440), got it on Craig's list 5 years old, still on the wood skid, had only cut pod, for $3500. I used this machine for years with success; chamberings through the headstock is not very demanding on a lathe. The bed was a little crooked but the carriage only travels the few inches near the spindle, this machine build rifles that shot very well, it has a D1-4 spindle and MT4(?) quill on the tail stock. After making a few bucks, buying a pile of reamers and tooling, I decided to get a better, second lathe. Bought a sharp 1340VS a couple years ago and kept the Birmingham. The Sharp was purposely bought as a D1-4 and MT4 so that tools, chucks, live centers, etc could be interchangeable. This happens very little as the setup time adjusting chucks, etc is inconvenient, but it can save you money a little later on.
I can't imagine working in a shop without the second lathe
I would recommend you find a proper sized used machine to start, keep your startup cost down, get a bigger bang for your buck. I'm confident I could sell the Bham now for what I've paid for it years ago, it's served it's purpose perfectly but it's not for sale. Buy used machinery and have someone knowledgeable look it over. Gunsmithing itself has relatively low demands on machinery, but much higher demands on fixtures, setup, work holding, and tooling
You don't know what you're going to need 5 years from now, get started with something reasonable

 

[RobertB]

Great, so what size should I be looking for? In spindle length, length through tailstock and speed? General?

 

[jonaddis84]

Somewhere betwen 12x36 and 14x40. Its tough to find a compromise between nice heavy machine, and short headstock.

 

[slayer_21420]

Great, so what size should I be looking for? In spindle length, length through tailstock and speed? General?

Spindle bore diameter needs to be able to accommodate the largest barrels you plan on turning, a lot of barrels are 1.250" at the chamber end, a few are larger.

My machine has 8 speeds between 70-2000rpm's.

If really suggest spending some time with the guys you mentioned and watch them thread and chamber a couple barrels if they'll let you. Ask questions, they'll tell you what they like and dislike about the machines they use.

There really isn't a perfect lathe, usually you are sacrificing weight and rigidity for short headstock and cheaper price.

You just have to try to find the best balance that you can afford and run with it.

 

[ajwcotton]

I would look for a decent used machine. I spent at least 4 months looking at craigslist and a ton of used machinery web sights. I was about to pull the trigger on the G0709 when it was on sale a couple of months ago. I decided to wait a couple days and I found a practically new Kent lathe that was perfect for me and it was right in town to boot. Patience is the best policy when shopping. Make sure you budget for a phase converter as well as tooling and measuring tools. A mill is great to have, but for me I don't have enough room in my garage for a full size knee mill so I make due with a small grizzly column mill. It works just fine for cleaning up bedding and inletting I just have to be a little more creative with fixturing.

 

[slayer_21420]

I agree with ajwcotton, you can find some great used machines for really good prices. I looked for over a year and found nothing that struck me as being better than a new import. For 1 I am not familiar enough to be comfortable buying an old used machine that looks a little rough, even though with a little cleanup it might do fine work. With my luck it'd be a flop and need major work. I think for a newb, unless you have professional guidance of course, a new machine may be the better direction to take.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[RobertB]

Thanks guys. I'm going to continue to save my dollars until the buildings are actually available. I'll be looking till then. Any certain tooling yall can recommend to me. I understand somethings are very general but didn't know if there were brands and just have to have items to make the work turn out better or easier?

I'm still out of town working so I cant go hassle my guys just yet, that time will come though.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Is the Grizzly stuff any good?

Yep, it serves many professionals just fine, and doesn't come with some of the headaches a heavily-used US machine often does. Don't forget to budget for tooling, fixtures, measuring equiment, etc. as part of your overall budget - that stuff adds up fast.

 

[RobertB]

What all tools other than reamers are "can't live without" status that I can be pricing? Just wondering. Can't thank y'all enough for yalls time here helping !e out. Means alot

 

[slayer_21420]

This will be in no way a complete list, but it'll give you some things to look at. You'll need An assortment of cutting tools, I bought some of the Arthur Warner HSS insert tools. A couple good dial indicators (interapid, Brown&sharp) Noga magnetic base's for indicators, depth micrometer, dial caliper, reamer holder, bushings for reamers, action truing fixture, high sulfer cutting oil such as vipers venom, machinery handbook with guide, etc..

There are many more things to buy that I didn't list that you will need to get. This isn't a cheap hobby to start up, plan on at least a couple grand to get everything you need to start up.

Don't go cheap on your measuring tools, you'll end up buying the better ones anyway

 

[81STFACP]

What all tools other than reamers are "can't live without" status that I can be pricing? Just wondering. Can't thank y'all enough for yalls time here helping !e out. Means alot

I am in the same boat as you, not a gunsmith nor a machinist, starting in the hobby without any prior experience, other than messing around with my mini mill and mini lathe. Found a 12x36 lathe and BP mill, both used, but not abused for a decent package price. Have not taken the delivery of the machines yet, but have spent close to 2K on the can't-live-without stuff, based on input from a couple of friends who do their own barrels. With my bad eyes up close I opted for digital variety, contrary to what my friends suggested. Those Mitutoyo, Brown and Sharpe, and Starrett aren't cheap, even with the last 30% off from Enco, I still ran up a good bill. Good thing I already have all the reamers I intend to use, have used them on the previous builds.

The intent for me is just the pleasure of doing my own barrels. Unlike you, I have no intent in going into business, at 62 who's been retired for 3 years, I do not need any headache from customers, BTDT.

Good luck in your quest, enjoy the journey.

 

[RobertB]

Thanks guys. I don't plan on quitting my day job any imensoon. I just want to start out for fun and then do a few buddies and if I think I can do a decent job I'll look into some side work. My tab is getting pretty high lol.. I can't wait to spin some up.

 

[Skidmark1969]

I use a South Bend Heavy 10, it's 3 phase 240 and belt driven so it reduces the vibration. You will spend about 2k on a used South bend add $550 for a DRO and $1800 for a good 4 jaw.