defenition of a "cold bore shot"

[Zeyphex]

Hi guys, a friend of mine asked me what I would consider a coldboreshot and how cold the barrel had to be (relative to the environment) to be consitered cabable of a coldboreshot again
I would say the first two shots and then wait approx ten minutes for cooldown.
What are your criteria for a coldbore shot?
And how close to the enviro-temp do the barrel have to be?
All opinions are appreciated

Thank you

 

[bohem]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

My opinion is a cold bore shot is when the shooter is "cold" and that a rifle with a cold bore issue has something wrong with it.

I have a few rack grade rifles with cold bore issues... namely they shoot well for a couple shots and then turn into 1-2 MOA shotguns.

I don't own any custom built, high quality rifles that have cold bore issues.

Every one of my rifles shoots the first shot from a clean/oiled bore in a slightly different spot than the subsequent rounds. It is one of the many reasons that I avoid cleaning until the rifle's repeatability opens up.

 

[fargo007]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

In training and in the tactical competition circuit, there is always only one cold bore shot per day.

I believe that's all you get. One cold bore each day the rifle is fired.

Bohem correctly points out "cold shooter" in addition. You can't have a legitimate cold bore shot with a warmed up shooter.

--Fargo007

 

[Lowlight]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Cold Bore is often confused with a Clean Cold Bore. Two different animals.

Cold Bores, are rarely a function of heat, in some cases it can be combined with a poorly made barrel, and improper threading to create a variation in impact from one round to another, but the traditional thinking on what a "cold bore" is, has been proven to be highly flawed.

The concept of one round being off and 4 other rounds going center in a tight group makes very little sense logically so it has been shown that other factors are at play, including shooter anticipation or what is cold a "cold shooter".

If you think about it, the difference in heat between round 1 and round 2 is not nearly as much as the difference between round 3 and round 5. So, that sort of throws a wrench in the "cold" versus "warm" theory. Some manufacturers have taken to increasing the torque on the threads between the barrel and the action to well over 100 inch lbs to eliminate the problem. Where other disciplines will have barrels torqued to 35 inch pounds or less. This change in build practices along with changes in the cut of the threads has helped show it's not so much heat as much as how you build it. Which is why the problem appears in factory guns more so than custom ones. Factory builds have no caught up to the new practices yet.

Clean Cold Bores represent a physical change, the barrel may have cleaning solutions present, oil, in the bore which will expand with the heat. Once they are burnt off, this will bring the barrel to more natural state. Also, most clean bore have had the "good" copper removed which has been placed there to fill in any imperfections in the bore from tooling. The good copper is helpful, and only after hundreds of round does the bad copper build up enough to effect accuracy. So this condition needs time to "season" the bore again after heavy cleaning to return the good copper to a state the barrel likes.

Short answer there is no one reason or solution, especially in a factory rifle. The long answer can go well beyond what is written here.

 

[Loopm5]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Well in law enforcement the rifle is cleaned every time it is fired and placed in its case. When a call up is issued you are in place for a live shot you don't have time to practice or shoot the rifle for the range you are targeting. A precise shot is needed "COLD BORE" on the NOSE so to speak. So when I practice the cold bore shot the rifle has been cleaned and it is setting in it's case. And if my rifle does not shoot on the nose for a given range COLD BORE I am going to be very concerned.
This is my definition and my humble opinion. My practice consists of 1 cold bore and 1- 3shot groups at a time. I may add a additional 3 shot group for fun.

 

[bohem]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

So you have a CLEAN BORE wit a COLD SHOOTER, that's what you're practicing.

Perhaps it would be more applicable for your practice time to be Shoot 1, clean.


Wait an hour, have lunch, jaw on the range for a while...

Shot 1, clean.


Repeat.

 

[Loopm5]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Not really, if there were consecutive targets after the first target you want to know were your rifle shoots after the cold bore. But you could practice only cold bore shots if you like. The rifle should only have very minimal shift from the cold shot but if it does, I would like to know its placement.

 

[bohem]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Do you find your clean bore shot to be consistent each time?

 

[Loopm5]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

With in .50 depending on my skill and conditions. My log book show that there are some deviations from week to week but none out of spec for the rifle. Now that said I have had a bad pull or two or I am having a bad day ect. If everything is going well in set up then it is not that off .50 in any direction.And .50 is most of the time max. Last cold bore that was placed on Sat. of this last week and was barley above the BALL of the nose. 2 weeks prior it was dead on the ball. The rifle is a A5 with a Leupold TMR FFP scope.

 

[vferguson3006]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Clean Cold Bores represent a physical change, the barrel may have cleaning solutions present, oil, in the bore which will expand with the heat. Once they are burnt off, this will bring the barrel to more natural state. Also, most clean bore have had the "good" copper removed which has been placed there to fill in any imperfections in the bore from tooling. The good copper is helpful, and only after hundreds of round does the bad copper build up enough to effect accuracy. So this condition needs time to "season" the bore again after heavy cleaning to return the good copper to a state the barrel likes.
Very interesting question!
The last shoot I attended was over a 4 day period, and the rangemaster was US Army Sniper Trained, FBI Designated Marksman trained.
When he declared the range hot each morning around 8am for the initial first competition of the day he actually said "all shooter's this is "cold bore" followed by the total number of rounds for scoring.
We cleaned our weapons just once at the end of the day.
Each competition was held "cold bore" each morning. Of course there was much more shooting during each day, unknown distances, etc.
Interesting he used that phrase ea. morning. With LowLight's explanation above it sort of makes sense to me now.
JOE

 

[Lowlight]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Problem with LE is they are stuck in 1982 with a lot of their thinking, let alone their training.

There are smarter ways to operate, new techniques that go largely ignored. Its one of the primary reasons you won't see a majority of LE around any type of civilian competition because it bruises their ego when they can't hold their own very well.

Issues most tactical shooters see as a detriment to accuracy go largely unnoticed because they simply don't train effectively and miss these problems. They are happy to be within that 1 MOA regardless of reasons, and in any direction. Not all, and I don't mean this to be a blanket statement, and much of it is out of the individual officers hands, but they are definitely behind the curve when it comes to employing a precision rifle.

A lot of their classes preach cleaning after a very low number of shots, and really, preach over cleaning which is far worse for a precision rifle than shooting it dirty will ever be. It's institutional incest that creates training scars and those scars are handed down -- over and over again, for a very long time now. If you are cleaning it with less than 10 rounds down the tube, and cleaning it with solvents, you are way behind the times. These solvents begin to attack to the bore because really, there is nothing else there for them to work on. It's a sad state of affairs when a guy is taught to operate this way. Much of comes from the old days in the military when down time was taken up cleaning weapons to inspection clean status. Nobody put together it was simply to keep 20 year olds busy so they won't get into trouble and not because it was healthy for the system. When there is nothing else to do, you can always clean a weapon, this carried over. Luckily you don't see it as much in the military as they progressed in this regard, LE not so much.

The question I would ask would be, what process have the two posters who do this do to insure a bore free of solvents. Are you using 97% alcohol after to remove any oils, or you are cleaning and either leaving some oil in the bore, or just running a dry patch at the end until it appears "clean"... are you using harsh solvents to stripe the bores clean after just a few shots >20, or are you just using something light to remove the perceived carbon ? Stripping copper ?

 

[Dagsta]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

+1 on Frank's assessment above. SOP at our department was clean after every session. Therefore every first shot was a Clean Cold Bore. Now so far as bruised egos, my first experience with that phenomenon was 25 yrs ago at the very first IPSC match I entered.

How could in fact a bunch of civilians outshoot me a LE Firearms Instructor??? Well guess what, I learned more on that humble day than most all of the training I had.

And just when you think it can't happen and you think you might know a little bit about what your doing you attend a class at Rifles Only, and realize that what you thought you knew was only in your dreams.

I will agree that although LE training has in fact progressed quite a bit in past years, still a lot of the thinking is years behind. If I would have known then a little of what I have learned now, I would have been scared to death with some of the rules and applications that were practiced then.

 

[Graham]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

Cold Bore is the first shot of the day, regardless of barrel temperature.

An acquaintance from a sister department was at the range the other day. He was sawing the cleaning rod in the barrel with a patch wrapped around a bronze brush. He said he needed to get it to 'cold bore spec'. 'OK,' I said, 'sure.'

Some agencies now shoot 'fouling shots' before they put their rifles away. Progressive? Not really. Know your rifle and you won't have to practice the voodoo.

To paraphrase Malreaux, LE is much more about the strength of organization than it is about the strength of knowledge and experience. It is, after all, government work, which in my experience has its own inbred logic in favor of mediocrity.

And yes, I include myself in that statement.

 

[Loopm5]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

I would agree with the above statements for some situations.I think my 40x in .22 only shoots precise with about 200 to 300 rounds down the barrel.And I foul the barrel in my bench rest .308-6mmPPC,.223 but I don't think that the way I preform the COLD CLEAN barrel shot is because of a by gone 1982 era. I choose to follow the procedure of the person who built the rifle.

And on a second note I think allot of L.E departments follow some rules not because they want to it is because they have to. I assume if you don't follow a procedure and your in court it would have some bearing on the case. Unfortunately if you cleaned your rifle that day or what ammo was used or even lot number is brought up if a actual event takes place. Lawyer's love detail.

I am not saying the way I do things is the right way it is just the way I choose to. And it has worked for me so far.

 

[Graham]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...my 40x in .22 only shoots precise with about 200 to 300 rounds down the barrel.</div></div> A .22LR is a different kettle of rifle. If your center fire rifle, even with moly bullets, takes 50+ rounds to establish a zero, or to shoot precisely, then there's something wrong with it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume if you don't follow a procedure and your in court it would have some bearing on the case. Unfortunately if you cleaned your rifle that day or what ammo was used or even lot number is brought up if a actual event takes place. Lawyer's love detail.</div></div>Lawyers love detail. At least some of them do. But whether you cleaned your rifle doesn't matter as long as you can explain why you did what you did. Bad shoots are not the result of rifle cleaning procedure or ammo lot variations.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

manufacturers offer cleaning procedures mainly for the owners' peace of mind. This includes break in as well.

They are not telling you to clean it a certain way do to some form of insight, but mainly because that is what is expected of them.

It has been discussed at length to include input from barrel makers and builders, the clean regiments suggested are not for the reason most agree.

Gale McMillan has stated publicly that break in and over cleaning is a fabrication

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gale McMillan
Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in</div></div>

 

[ashland]

Re: defenition of a "cold bore shot"

I fell for that break in shit when I shot benchrest. I quit that after going to RO. I would love to know who that barrel maker was so I could not use him.