Defiance Action - Cerakoted and rough - Need Help

[Kimber.204]

Hey folks,

I have a Defiance Mutant action in an Eliseo tube gun chassis. I bought the action and the chassis used from a guy who had a job change and was unloading some guns. The action looked like it had just been cerakoted and never assembled into the chassis.

My issue is this: The bolt sticks at various points in normal operation. Several areas are wearing through the cerakote and I've had to clean the cerakote shavings out of the action several times. But, after 300 rounds and almost double that in dry firing, it really isn't getting smoother, it's getting worse. I've tried running it dry, I've tried running it wet and wet but wiped down.....nothing is helping. I have a Bighorn TL3 and it is so smooth and fast that when you open the action you think it's doing it all on it's own. As it stands the action is a bear to try and use during rapid fire stages (I shoot NRA Highpower) - so I need to resolve this otherwise this gun will be forever a safe queen.

I'm looking for a recommendation on what to do to resolve this issue, so I spoke to the folks at Defiance and they didn't really have a recommendation. They did say that if I wanted the cerakote off I could send the action back and they could tumble and polish it for me again.

My question to the community is:

1. Am I expecting too much from this Defiance action? Should it be as smooth and fast as my Bighorn TL3?
2. What do you all recommend? Send back and have it polished? Deal with it? Something else?

Please help!!!
Regards,
Ross

 

[RyanM]

I am not an expert as have only had defiance actions for a couple of months but they are tight actions.

I would recommend putting on a couple of movies you like and cycling the crap out of that thing. 600 cycles won't make much of a difference.

I am looking forward to any other responses as well.

 

[padom]

This is a broken record and happens all the time with cerakoting Defiance actions that haven't been properly spec for cerakote. They are too tight as they come to be cerakoted and the end result is what you are experiencing. I have 2 buddies that have experienced this very issue without knowing any better and the cerakote had to be removed from the inside of the action and the bolt.

When ordering a Defiance you can spec the tolerances you want and you need to do that taking the thickness of cerakote into account and you wont have an issue.

If I were you I would send that action back to Defiance and have them clean it up and you'll be good as new.

 

[Fig]

This is a broken record and happens all the time with cerakoting Defiance actions that haven't been properly spec for cerakote. They are too tight as they come to be cerakoted and the end result is what you are experiencing. I have 2 buddies that have experienced this very issue without knowing any better and the cerakote had to be removed from the inside of the action and the bolt.

When ordering a Defiance you can spec the tolerances you want and you need to do that taking the thickness of cerakote into account and you wont have an issue.

If I were you I would send that action back to Defiance and have them clean it up and you'll be good as new.

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This...but, I don't understand how this is a recurring problem at all. To me this is the height of idiocy, and unless it's done at home I would think any place that professionally cerakoted would refuse to do it to an action whether already treated or in white unless it was specifically designed for it, in which case it would almost defeat the purpose. It is practically intentionally trying to ruin an expensive, custom action. I put it right there with the glock fanboys who destroy their pistols by melting them because they think it looks kewl.

You need to strip it all out of there. Is there some release agent for cerakote?

 

[padom]

From what I understand it needs to be blasted/tumbled and polished.

 

[nexusfire]

I love when people say their actions are "tight tolerances". I have one that is polished or whatever they call it that does this same thing. The bolt gets hung up when cycling it, especially when moving the bolt forward to chamber a round. I just think that their quality control is lacking.

 

[PDXGS]

You need to remove the cerakote.....Call Defiance and see what they suggest.
They have great product and great customer service.

 

[Edds]

If it was mine, I would generously coat the bolt and the inside of the receiver with some very fine, 800-1200 grit, valve lapping compound and cycle the bolt back and forth until it was smooth. After this you will want to give it a serious washing.

 

[BCX]

This is the only reason I sold my GA Precision rifle. Even w Slip 2000 on it it would bind in a couple spots. I spoke w defiance on the issue as I wanted to order a 2nd bolt in Wsm bolt face. I asked for extra clearance and they told me NO. They also told me the action would need to be sent in for the bolt to be fitted. WTH!’n I’m stocking w Surgeon actions from here on out. I have one now and it’s slick. I wanted GAP to build my rifle w a Surgeon originally they talked me out of it. I should have went w my gut feeling. lol

 

[PDXGS]

I'll buy your screwed up Defiance off of you...

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

I've owned the TL3 and Defiance. Yes, the Defiance does bind a little more than the TL3, but it shouldn't be as bad as you describe, I found the two fairly comparable in smoothness to be honest. The TL3 felt looser and faster, especially when it was dirty. The Defiance liked to be run a little slower, but it sure felt good.

Personally I'd send it back to Defiance asap and have them take that crap off and re-polish it. Thing is, I don't know what that would cost, so perhaps that could be a factor. They do have great customer service though.

No matter what you do to try and fix it up to run "acceptably", it will never be as good as having Defiance freshen it up. They also offer DLC coatings now through the same guy who did my TL3. That stuff helps too, but it won't change the tolerances of the action. A tight action is a tight action, the Cerakote just made it even tighter.

 

[nexusfire]

This is the only reason I sold my GA Precision rifle. Even w Slip 2000 on it it would bind in a couple spots. I spoke w defiance on the issue as I wanted to order a 2nd bolt in Wsm bolt face. I asked for extra clearance and they told me NO. They also told me the action would need to be sent in for the bolt to be fitted. WTH!’n I’m stocking w Surgeon actions from here on out. I have one now and it’s slick. I wanted GAP to build my rifle w a Surgeon originally they talked me out of it. I should have went w my gut feeling. lol

Surgeons just work.

 

[Terry Cross]

Get the CeraKote off of the bolt body and if possible, the receiver raceway.

Also consider shortening the bolt handle. I am a firm believer that excessively long bolt handles cause a ton of binding in all types of actions (I have even seen it in R700 acitons). Grabbing a knob on the end of a long handle puts your forward pressure so far off axis with the bolt travel that you will induce a bind especially when the bolt is all the way to the rear and you are starting your forward stroke.

If your bolt to receiver fit is on the tight side, the action can be very susceptible to binding from this.

 

[nexusfire]

Get the CeraKote off of the bolt body and if possible, the receiver raceway.

Also consider shortening the bolt handle. I am a firm believer that excessively long bolt handles cause a ton of binding in all types of actions (I have even seen it in R700 acitons). Grabbing a knob on the end of a long handle puts your forward pressure so far off axis with the bolt travel that you will induce a bind especially when the bolt is all the way to the rear and you are starting your forward stroke.

If your bolt to receiver fit is on the tight side, the action can be very susceptible to binding from this.

This post is win. Damn long ass handles LOL.

 

[Tack425]

Tagged. Ill be building my Defiance action soon and am looking at options now.

 

[Kimber.204]

Well, I'll admit that I put a longer bolt handle on the rifle. The new handle has a better shape for rapids.....or maybe it doesn't, I'll put the original one back on and try it out.

If that doesn't fix it then I'll tear the gun down and ship the action back to defiance.

I will say that I have a really long bolt handle on my Bighorn action .....it's almost absurdly long, until you see me work the bolt and be ready to shoot by the time the gun settles down from the recoil.....then you think it might not be too long, maybe just right!!!

Thanks for all your comments folks.
I'll let you know how I make out.

Regards,
Ross

 

[PDXGS]

Still here for you.....by buying your POS Defiance action for double the scrap weight value.....the bastards....

 

[Nittynate]

You

I love when people say their actions are "tight tolerances". I have one that is polished or whatever they call it that does this same thing. The bolt gets hung up when cycling it, especially when moving the bolt forward to chamber a round. I just think that their quality control is lacking.

You must have a Savage!!

 

[Kimber.204]

Just a little update on my Defiance action....

I've been shooting the Eliseo tube gun a lot lately as I shoot it better in standing than any other rifle I own (I'm shooting NRA HighPower matches).
As suggested I tried using the original bolt handle and had the same issue, so I put the longer one back on. I tried pushing the bolt closed with my thumb riding along the side of the tube chassis to reduce the torque on the bolt and this helped a fair amount....for a while.

Yesterday I was doing some load testing and chronograph work on the bench and the bolt was hanging up when I was working it relatively slowly.
Well that pissed me off so I tore the gun down and hosed the SOB (bolt and action) off with BoreTech eliminator. Guess what the problem finally resolved. With it assembled in the chassis I couldn't really see how much carbon (Thanks RL26!!!) combined with bits of Cerakote was on the bolt and ways of the action. After I cleaned the bolt and the ways they felt notably smoother to the touch. There was a visible change in the the surface finish and texture as well. I guess what I was using to wipe the bolt and action down previously wasn't touching that carbon.

It's still not as fast as my Bighorn was, but I don't feel the need to send it back for tumbling/polishing now. But I still want to send it back and have a .223bolt fitted to it, so it might get tumbled if that happens.

Thanks for all you feedback
Regards,
Ross

 

[kthomas]

Get the CeraKote off of the bolt body and if possible, the receiver raceway.

Also consider shortening the bolt handle. I am a firm believer that excessively long bolt handles cause a ton of binding in all types of actions (I have even seen it in R700 acitons). Grabbing a knob on the end of a long handle puts your forward pressure so far off axis with the bolt travel that you will induce a bind especially when the bolt is all the way to the rear and you are starting your forward stroke.

If your bolt to receiver fit is on the tight side, the action can be very susceptible to binding from this.

On the other side of the coin, actions that are properly designed don't exhibit these issues with long bolt handles. My ARC Mausingfield has an aftermarket bolt knob from LRI (which is very long), which the most bind resistant action I've ever put my hands on. My TacOps rifle with tweaked R700 action has the standard large TacOps bolt knob, and it doesn't exhibit much traits of binding either (though not quite to the level of the Mausingfield). I know Mike puts a heck of a lot of work into those actions to get them the way he wants them, so not a fair comparison to a stock R700.

Some actions will definitely exhibit binding, especially if you increase the leverage of the handle. That is a design flaw of the action.

OP, glad you got it sorted out. Sucks to have an action, which is the heart of the rifle, not perform to your expectations.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I went through and stripped (120 grit Aluminum Oxide, 80 PSI) the Cerakote off of my TL-2's and sent them back to Bighorn to be DLC'd. Just got them back, problem solved. I will never paint (of any type, including Cerakote) a bolt, or the interior of an action again. Cerakote is fine for barrels, exterior of actions and parts, but a no go on the interior. DLC is your friend.

 

[kthomas]

A lot of superior coatings to Cerakote these days. Great time to be a precision rifle shooter.

I wouldn't let Cerakote touch any of my actions these days, with all the better options out there.

 

[Nitrosteel]

You mention better options available than ceracote. I am currently planning a build - what are the better options and why?

 

[Xander3Zero]

You mention better options available than ceracote. I am currently planning a build - what are the better options and why?

I think he was probably referring to other coatings/treatments such as DLC or nitriding. Those are probably the two most common receiver/action coatings available from the manufacturers.

 

[kthomas]

I think he was probably referring to other coatings/treatments such as DLC or nitriding. Those are probably the two most common receiver/action coatings available from the manufacturers.

Exactly. The lubricity of actions with DLC or nitride treatment are a lot better than Cerakote, and is a lot thinner than Cerakote.

Cerakote provides a bit more protection from things such as rust, but if you take care or your action, that shouldn't really matter.

All my latest actions have been DLC'ed, no way I would go back to Cerakote on any current or future actions.

 

[Kadams1563]

My defiance is DLC or nitrided (can’t temember lol) but it is very slick. Much more slick then the polished actions. I don’t have any binding or locking up that I have felt with the polished ones either.
When I try and run the bolt fast from standing over the rifle I get binding but it’s never happened while shooting.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

Take some lapping compound on the raceways and cycle the bolt back and forth a few hundred times, but do not NOT NOT close the bolt

My stock savage 10BA is smooth as butter... I can probably chamber a round by flicking the bolt knob.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

That's just user error with an action that has tight tolerances!
Or you need to clean it. Once they get at all dusty, they run like shit

User error, like he is making it “ feel” rough and catch? Seriously? High tolerances should not mean it cycles like shit.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

Like the other user said.. He had problems cycling the bolt when not shouldered. When shouldered it runs fine. So yes.. User error, or just unfamiliarity. I can purposely get mine to bind up by cycling it improperly.. Or letting it get too sand or dusty.

I will gladly save my money and keep my stock action that feels smooth regardless of environment. This shit cracks me up!

 

[Kadams1563]

^^^ keep your stock action until it won’t extract or eject. Lol

Been there done that and Defiance is probabaly the most popular custom action around. You think if they were all that terrible you would see them at ALL the major builders.

 

[nexusfire]

That's just user error with an action that has tight tolerances!
Or you need to clean it. Once they get at all dusty, they run like shit

You are retarded, I know how to cycle a fucking gun. I have Surgeons and BAT's that dont do this so what do you make of that numb nuts?

 

[dworrel]

I have used lapping compound on multiple actions that were running a little bit rough. I had a custom build from GA precision and was initially pretty disappointed. Defiance action.

I also was initially only mildly impressed by my DLC coated Mausingfield. I used a little lapping compound on it and it is the smoothest action I have ever seen at this point.

 

[PDXGS]

I have an H&M Precision Nitride treated Defiance Deviant action that's as smooth as it gets.
It can get dirty and with New Mexico dust but is easy to clean and shows no signs of wear.
Forget the coatings have the Nitride surface treatment done.

 

[nexusfire]

Aww, I guess I offended you princess! What do I make of it? You're incompetent and should stick to stamp collecting in your parents basement instead of shooting.

The more you talk the more you sound like an idiot.

 

[Lesco Brandon]

Eric, you DO sound like a giant blubbering vagina.