Defiance deviant or Accuracy International

[Backspace]

AIs are awesome (I have one) and so are TRGs (I had one). They are well built, tough as nails (the AI more so than the TRG), and as accurate as any custom.

However, if you are doing PRS comps I think the needs requirement is a bit different. Yes there are a few guys out there who run AIs quite successfully but word on the street is they are not stock guns (lighter triggers, etc.). Seeing as you are looking to replace a 300WM you probably are not doing PRS matches with them.

If you don't shoot in really dusty conditions all of the time a Defiance/ARC/Bighorn is going to do all that you need to do for less money.

You can't go run with an AI though and if you get the AXMC and don't like it you can probably recover the majority of what you spent.

I am a member of team AI and have shot an AX for 3 years and shot out a dozen or so barrels. I shoot a standard trigger on a standard rifle with standard barrels. The only modifications I have done to date are tune the trigger using the adjustment screws, remove the plastic forward grip, and add a HRD gear ARCA Swiss/RRS rail and SAP +2 round holder. I've never finished outside of the top 15 for a PRS season. Last year, I won K&M with a stock 6.5x47 and won Allegheny Sniper Challenge with a stock 308 shooting 118LR. As a rifle system, it is as accurate as any custom out there. As to the durability, I would disagree. The finale last season was very tough environmentally. Not 1 AI that I know of had an issue. Many customs went down (mainly trigger failures). I will admit that there are definitely some improvements that could be made to the AX as far as a rifle for PRS but in reality, that is not what the rifle was designed for. They are designed to meet a military spec and just flat out work no matter what. I own a lot of customs and 3 AIs. The AIs are the only ones that have never gone down for me in any way, shape or form. Usually the weak point I've found in my customs are the triggers and bolt assemblies (bolt fitment, handles, firing pins, ...etc). What I like about the AI is that barrels are abundant and easy to replace and the system will return to zero when changing barrels out. If you need a new barrel, you can have one in 2 days, not 2 months or more depending on the smith. They run with AW mags all the time and never skip a beat. Finally, everything about the system is adjustable. The downfalls are that it is a stock rifle... You can't pick a trigger, chassis/stock, ...etc. Also, they are expensive.

If the chassis is for you and you can swing an AI, I highly recommend the AXMC for the OP. It can (would say will but everyone knows you always"need" another rifle) be the last rifle you ever need because you can swap barrels, bolts, mags and run anything from a BR to a Lapua mag. If the 2 stage trigger, price, and/or other limitations are a no go for you, you can definitely build a custom that can equal it in accuracy and possibly in reliability.

OP, if I can help out in any way, let me know. I will give you a straight answer on either side AI or Custom and if I have no experience with something, I'll tell you. If you are close or going to a match I'm shooting, you are welcome to shoot any of my rifles. Just shoot me a PM.

 

[kRcu]

No you don't get it. AI makes great rifles. Their pricing is just ludicris. If you read what I wrote instead of projecting words in my mouth you see this.

“Much less viability than 20 years ago.”
“Waste of money”
“Same performance available for considerably less”
“AI is nothing special”
“Buying an AI is a waste of money”

(Some paraphrasing, but most are direct quotes from your posts)


Doesn’t seem like I’m putting words in your mouth at all. Seems like I get your points just fine.

 

[Primus]

No you just can't read and are making logic leaps. Show me where I said they are junk or bad products. Your inabity to comprehend written words is not my problem, it's yours.

 

[kRcu]

No you just can't read and are making logic leaps. Show me where I said they are junk or bad products. Your inabity to comprehend written words is not my problem, it's yours.

If I say something is a waste of money, it would be an improper logical leap for someone to assume I dislike it.

Got it.


.

 

[RyanScott]

Matches should begin with a drop test.

 

[RyanM]

I do agree with @Backspace that if the chassis and trigger work for you that there really is nothing out there that is going to best an AI.

The only reason I switched this year is that I find the MPA chassis (and traditional stocks like the T3/T4/A5 as well) to be more comfortable/easier to shoot. Some guys are doing the AI into the MPA swap but I could never bring myself to do that.

I may have been misinformed about the trigger but I have heard about it from a few places - would love to know the truth. The whispers I have heard is that it is still a stock trigger but adjusted in a proprietary way.

One thing I have always wondered though is that Defiance is the #1 action in PRS but yet the reports of them binding/failing is also super high.

 

[RyanScott]

What’s ridiculous is $5000 for a rifle in a Fiberglass stock. Unless it’s a Simillion.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I do agree with @Backspace that if the chassis and trigger work for you that there really is nothing out there that is going to best an AI.

The only reason I switched this year is that I find the MPA chassis (and traditional stocks like the T3/T4/A5 as well) to be more comfortable/easier to shoot. Some guys are doing the AI into the MPA swap but I could never bring myself to do that.

I may have been misinformed about the trigger but I have heard about it from a few places - would love to know the truth. The whispers I have heard is that it is still a stock trigger but adjusted in a proprietary way.

One thing I have always wondered though is that Defiance is the #1 action in PRS but yet the reports of them binding/failing is also super high.

i dont think there is anything proprietary about it...Ive adjusted mine down to where the first stage is really light, and the 2nd stage breaks around 1 3/4 lbs...i could go down lighter around 1.5 but i dont like mine that light...i like a light 1st, and ~2lb 2nd...K. Shep (team AI) showed a few of my shooting buddies how to adjust theirs at the LSF match last year, as well...it makes quite a bit of difference in the trigger feel...i adjusted a shooters trigger this past weekend who is used to using the trigger tech specials and he said the AI feels much better after being adjusted

 

[Smooth_87]

No you don't get it. AI makes great rifles. Their pricing is just ludicris. If you read what I wrote instead of projecting words in my mouth you see this.

Would be great if they were cheaper yes.

Also, your points regarding ARC are likely to do with Mauser style action qualities which for an actions reliability should not be argued. I agree.

 

[kRcu]

It’s ridiculous to buy anything besides ARC. We get it.

 

[Timo Turl]

i dont think there is anything proprietary about it...Ive adjusted mine down to where the first stage is really light, and the 2nd stage breaks around 1 3/4 lbs...i could go down lighter around 1.5 but i dont like mine that light...i like a light 1st, and ~2lb 2nd...K. Shep (team AI) showed a few of my shooting buddies how to adjust theirs at the LSF match last year, as well...it makes quite a bit of difference in the trigger feel...i adjusted a shooters trigger this past weekend who is used to using the trigger tech specials and he said the AI feels much better after being adjusted

Morgan, does your trigger pass the drop test when you run it that light ? Not judging you, just curious. Thx

 

[pizfiz]

I would like to know as well. As soon as I get below 3lbs it won’t pass the 6 inch drop on the butt pad.

 

[morganlamprecht]

 

[stephewc]

Any instructions on how do you adjust the 1st stage? Thanks.

 

[Timo Turl]

Dude that’s good to see. Guess those AI guys did some good work and they obviously know something the rest of us don’t when it comes to adjusting it down. Good to know it can be done. Now I need to figure out how !

 

[morganlamprecht]

ill just post it here since im getting PMs about it, but to get the trigger like this what i did was play a little give/take between trigger weight (straight one) and sear screw (angled one)

I took the skins off, adjusted the sear screw and watched it move...tightening it shortens the first stage travel...loosening it increases the first stage travel...i found the sweet spot where the sear will release really clean and still have the weight screw backed out quite a bit...it’s touchy tho, once i got the sear screw to the right spot, small 1/8 turns would change the pull weight like 1/4 lb at a time, and it didn’t take much to change the drop test resistance also...i just went back and forth between pull weight and sear until i got it just right

** if you get it wrong your trigger wont be safe and will feel like crap so i wouldnt mess with it unless youre willing to risk it, and have some idea of what youre doing...id take careful notes and pay attention to what you adjust so you can reverse it if need be...if you get it too wrong you might have to send it back to AI, so IF you start messing with it, its on you after that...i dont want a bunch of PMs about guys who trashed their AI trigger, this is the warning lol **

 

[jlficken]

No you don't get it. AI makes great rifles. Their pricing is just ludicris. If you read what I wrote instead of projecting words in my mouth you see this.

You say the pricing is "ludicris", however, having priced out quite a few customs there is very little cost difference if you compare them with similar chassis, triggers, actions, barrels, etc. Not to mention that I can have an AI delivered in under 3 days while a custom will take 3-12 months in most cases.

If you like the AI package then there is no reason whatsoever to buy a custom. I also have zero interest in actions that have over a 70deg bolt throw now as well after having a couple of AI's.

I still have an AIAT, Bighorn TL-2 (in 223), and Tikka T3 in my collection but I have contemplated selling them all to get an AXMC. The Tikka weighs 10lbs, the TL-2 weighs 13lbs, and the AIAT weighs 17lbs all with scopes, mags, slings, and bipods.

The AIAT is heavy but lots of that weight comes from the Gen II Razor on it while the others have much lighter optics.

If AI made a 223 I would own one in a heartbeat.

 

[pineoak]

"If AI made a 223 I would own one in a heartbeat."

YES.

 

[DOA]

Would be great if they were cheaper yes.

A custom bolt gun is going to run $3200 or so depending on the smith. An AI AT will run approx. $4k. New barrel on an AI is about $800 and a custom bolt action re-barrel with barrel will run approx. $750. I'm not seeing where the AI is VASTLY more expensive. I'm not speaking about pre-fits or anything like that.
You could buy 2 customs with optics (2 diff calibers say .308/6.5CM) or buy 1 AI AT with a replacement barrel (2 diff calibers) with optics and save the extra on training and ammo.

 

[Bradu]

A custom bolt gun is going to run $3200 or so depending on the smith. An AI AT will run approx. $4k. New barrel on an AI is about $800 and a custom bolt action re-barrel with barrel will run approx. $750. I'm not seeing where the AI is VASTLY more expensive. I'm not speaking about pre-fits or anything like that.
You could buy 2 customs with optics (2 diff calibers say .308/6.5CM) or buy 1 AI AT with a replacement barrel (2 diff calibers) with optics and save the extra on training and ammo.

I am curious to see where all the smiths are at that will build on a Defiance action along with a quality stock or chassis and trigger for $3200. Most are $4k plus and some even closing in on $5k. I agree with you on all the rest though and Robert Gradous even offers button rifled barrels for the small tennon AI's at $575.

 

[TheOE800]

To be fair a short action AX is over $7K retail.

 

[Primus]

A custom bolt gun is going to run $3200 or so depending on the smith. An AI AT will run approx. $4k. New barrel on an AI is about $800 and a custom bolt action re-barrel with barrel will run approx. $750. I'm not seeing where the AI is VASTLY more expensive. I'm not speaking about pre-fits or anything like that.
You could buy 2 customs with optics (2 diff calibers say .308/6.5CM) or buy 1 AI AT with a replacement barrel (2 diff calibers) with optics and save the extra on training and ammo.

An AI in an actual usable caliber (6.5) is $4500.

If u go the custom route. A chambered, cut rifled barrel from LRI is $575 with a threaded muzzle. PVA is doing prefits for like $475, although they are button barrels.The cost Delta's are bigger then you claim. Each barrel you shoot out widens that cost Delta's.

You can drop a barreled mausingfield with a Huber or Calvin elite into an AX chassis ( not that AT half ass shit) for less and IMO get way better features. AI are still great rifles, they are just a shitty value. Same as GAP rifles and Hensdolt optics.

I would rather have 2 dedicated rifles than have to fuck with swapping barrels, zeros on optics ext. Plus 2 is 1 and 1 is none.

 

[Bradu]

An AI in an actual usable caliber (6.5) is $4500.

If u go the custom route. A chambered, cut rifled barrel from LRI is $575 with a threaded muzzle. PVA is doing prefits for like $475, although they are button barrels.The cost Delta's are bigger then you claim. Each barrel you shoot out widens that cost Delta's.

You can drop a barreled mausingfield with a Huber or Calvin elite into an AX chassis ( not that AT half ass shit) for less and IMO get way better features. AI are still great rifles, they are just a shitty value. Same as GAP rifles and Hensdolt optics.

I would rather have 2 dedicated rifles than have to fuck with swapping barrels, zeros on optics ext. Plus 2 is 1 and 1 is none.

I just have to quote this..."An AI in a usable caliber (6.5)"...Just shut up already

I figured I would edit just to mention that I guess I have a custom in an unusable caliber? Someone should have informed me a lot sooner, now I might as well see if I can pay someone to take it off my hands lol.

 

[Covertnoob5]

@Primus lol you’re still stuck with an r700 style trigger. Good luck with that when it gets dirty.

 

[kRcu]

Primus is a builder/smith. You guys need to respect what he says. Even though he himself builds overpriced rifles based on R700 actions in meh stocks for about what an AI AT costs.

Value is in the eyes of whoever is making the purchase. For example, nothing I saw on your site, Primus, I would say is worth any amount of my money. You would likely argue otherwise. As pointless of an argument as arguing that an AI is of not a value for their going rate.

 

[Ledzep]

Defiance Deviant- $1350
Trigger Tech- $145
PVA Prefit- $525
ARC Barloc- $120
Manners T4a mini-chassis- $1200

Total: $3340

Shop around a little, or change the manners T4a for a KRG Bravo, Xray, T4a (non-mini chassis)+DBM, etc... and you're well under the quoted $3200

 

[Primus]

@Primus lol you’re still stuck with an r700 style trigger. Good luck with that when it gets dirty.

Yea those poor fucking scout snipers and B4/sotic guys in regiment are dropping like flies in combat when all their triggers fail........

 

[Fig]

These?

http://www.utahrifle.com/Custom_Rifles.html

 

[kRcu]

What?... random as fuck...

I live and shoot in Colorado. TL-3's rule the day here. I shot the finale in Utah. It was dusty and windy as hell. What sucked dick in the dust were mags. The actions were less so. To spend what you would have to to on an AI, you could have two of the average top-shelf comp rifles. When one gets dusty you could throw it over the hillside and pull a brand new rifle out to shoot....

I was being sarcastic in response to Primus

Unless you need a gun to jump or dive with...

 

[kRcu]

What?... random as fuck...

I live and shoot in Colorado. TL-3's rule the day here. I shot the finale in Utah. It was dusty and windy as hell. What sucked dick in the dust were mags. The actions were less so. To spend what you would have to to on an AI, you could have two of the average top-shelf comp rifles. When one gets dusty you could throw it over the hillside and pull a brand new rifle out to shoot....

Again, the AX isn’t the only AI produced. Everyone acts like the AT isn’t in the same price ballpark as every other custom rifle. AX’s are another jump of a $1k or so I know.

My TL3 that MHSA built for me (scope, Mount, and Bipod excluded) came in at $3800 for the barreled action, trigger, and chassis. Literally $200 under an AI AT....which is partially what got me thinking of why I didn’t just go with an AI to begin with.

 

[Bradu]

These?

http://www.utahrifle.com/Custom_Rifles.html

Lol $3400 for a trued 700 in an hs precision stock? When we are talking customs on a defiance action to compare to an AI, I'm referring to having smiths building a complete rifle not assembling it yourself.

 

[kRcu]

Yea those poor fucking scout snipers and B4/sotic guys in regiment are dropping like flies in combat when all their triggers fail........

The same guys are probably doing alright with “unusable” calibers too, huh? Huh, Primus?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Pro tip of the day: You will experience far less retard in life if you put primus on your ignore list.

He's a tool but the ignore feature is a more useful tool.

 

[Primus]

I just have to quote this..."An AI in a usable caliber (6.5)"...Just shut up already

I figured I would edit just to mention that I guess I have a custom in an unusable caliber? Someone should have informed me a lot sooner, now I might as well see if I can pay someone to take it off my hands lol.

Truth is, no one is buying .308s anymore. It's a dying caliber. AI charges a premium for a "usable caliber". Don't be so dramatic.

 

[Primus]

Pro tip of the day: You will experience far less retard in life if you put primus on your ignore list.

He's a tool but the ignore feature is a more useful tool.

Pro tip: no one cares what you think. Ignored but still living rent free in your head....

 

[Bradu]

Truth is, no one is buying .308s anymore. It's a dying caliber. AI charges a premium for a "usable caliber". Don't be so dramatic.

Lol must be a creedmoor fanboy. Plenty of 308s sold because a lot of people run that worthless ass caliber in an AR platform and want a bolt gun in the same caliber. That way they don't have to buy more dies or different types of ammo. Btw, that's not being dramatic. That's just showing you how fucking stupid you sound ?

 

[Fig]

Percision claims from builders of .5 MOA on a three shot group is pretty standard and worthless. Some claim 1/3 MOA, again worthless from 3 shots. This is the first builder I’ve ever seen who advertises a rifle @ .0 MOA. Why not from a three shot group? If I shoot thirty three shot groups with any of my built rifles I’m bound to have some sub .1 groups. But, I don’t even see the Bat and Panda action BR builders, on 20+ lb rifles, putting that in print, and that’s certainly the first ever on a field rifle.

 

[DOA]

Again, the AX isn’t the only AI produced. Everyone acts like the AT isn’t in the same price ballpark as every other custom rifle. AX’s are another jump of a $1k or so I know.

My TL3 that MHSA built for me (scope, Mount, and Bipod excluded) came in at $3800 for the barreled action, trigger, and chassis. Literally $200 under an AI AT....which is partially what got me thinking of why I didn’t just go with an AI to begin with.

Awhile back I had SAC build me a .308 on a Defiance(Alpha 11) with Bartlein, Jewell (I only compete against myself), AT stock and it ran about $3200 or so. That's where my figure came from. Now am considering keeping the .308 for 1-600yds and getting a 6.5CM for longer ranges but kinda wished I would have just ponied up for the AT in the first place. I'm not made of money and its my only real splurge.

 

[Primus]

Lol must be a creedmoor fanboy. Plenty of 308s sold because a lot of people run that worthless ass caliber in an AR platform and want a bolt gun in the same caliber. That way they don't have to buy more dies or different types of ammo. Btw, that's not being dramatic. That's just showing you how fucking stupid you sound ?

Lots of people are ignorant, dumb and retarded.

Let me rephrase this. Informed shooters, competitors, the military(those that actually get into engagements) and anyone else not living under a rock since 1962 have and are moving onto ballistically superior calibers. Almost everyone here has a whole slew of .308 rifles but very few will be buying or building another one. Its like buying an 8Track player when everyone who is not a retard, is using CD's.

6.5, .260, ect are superior to .308 in every way possible. Now I can't believe you are this dense and will assume you are just trolling because you are a child.

Now back to the topic of an overpriced an AI VS a dropping a barreled custom into the OP's existing chassis.

 

[Primus]

Awhile back I had SAC build me a .308 on a Defiance(Alpha 11) with Bartlein, Jewell (I only compete against myself), AT stock and it ran about $3200 or so. That's where my figure came from. Now am considering keeping the .308 for 1-600yds and getting a 6.5CM for longer ranges but kinda wished I would have just ponied up for the AT in the first place. I'm not made of money and its my only real splurge.

Or just rebarrel your gun for $5-700 with a premium 6.5mm tube and be done with it. I find it interesting those who rarely shoot out barrels and those pushing AI's have a strong correlation. Not to say the guys shooting comps don't burn up barrels, but I would venture to guess the vast majority of AI shooters are not.

 

[kRcu]

We get it, you hate AI’s.

 

[Rthur]

Just get a John Hancock barreled action. Will cost you under 2k and you can drop right into your existing chassis. Buying an AI is a waste of money. The ARC actions are superior to anything on the market and there is no reason to even consider anything else.

Fairly bold statement concerning the AI.
Jacob, at RO, has an action with over 125k rounds through it.

R

 

[Primus]

At that point the action is irrelevant. You spent over $100k in ammo and barrels. Whats 2k on a new action. Whose to say any of the other customs have been proven to not stand up? AI rifles are built for a purpose and unless you living that lifestyle, there are better options.

 

[kRcu]

At that point the action is irrelevant. You spent over $100k in ammo and barrels. Whats 2k on a new action. Whose to say any of the other customs have been proven to not stand up? AI rifles are built for a purpose and unless you living that lifestyle, there are better options.

What lifestyle does one have to live to acquire one of your custom 0-1/4 moa lasers?



Lemme guess....

 

[jlficken]

Pro tip of the day: You will experience far less retard in life if you put primus on your ignore list.

He's a tool but the ignore feature is a more useful tool.

I didn't know there was an ignore option on here...awesome!!!

 

[Basher]

Lots of people are ignorant, dumb and retarded.

Let me rephrase this. Informed shooters, competitors, the military(those that actually get into engagements) and anyone else not living under a rock since 1962 have and are moving onto ballistically superior calibers. Almost everyone here has a whole slew of .308 rifles but very few will be buying or building another one. Its like buying an 8Track player when everyone who is not a retard, is using CD's.

6.5, .260, ect are superior to .308 in every way possible. Now I can't believe you are this dense and will assume you are just trolling because you are a child.

Now back to the topic of an overpriced an AI VS a dropping a barreled custom into the OP's existing chassis.

Well, I guess I'm ignorant, dumb, or retarded then...

I was gonna stay out of this thread, but that was too broad a brush to ignore.

So I guess all the pilots rocking an E6B, HSI/VOR setup, and paper charts are ignorant, dumb, or retarded for not upgrading to a CX-2 Pathfinder, GPS, and an EFB/iPad too, huh?

If it works for you, and you like it, then rock it. But there's no need to throw out insults over it. A GPS approach is cake compared to a VOR approach, but I know a lot of pilots who can fly a rock solid VOR approach in their sleep, and they've already invested in the panel and practice to use it. Why spend a ton of money to change if you like it and you're good at it?

Likewise, I know a number of guys who have invested considerable time and money setting up for .308, and it works well for them. They know they're not going to win any PRS Finales anytime soon, but they hold their own at local matches and put meat on the table just fine. I fail to see how that makes them retarded.

But I guess I better stop now and go back to being my same ol' ignorant, dumb, retarded self for owning and enjoying a .308 (and an AI)!

 

[kRcu]

.308 AI crew.

 

[Ankeny]

I just ordered an AI AT in 6.5 Creedmoor. Rifle will be here Wednesday. I also ordered a 6mm Creedmoor barrel that will probably be here before the rifle. I am 63 years old and started shooting competitively when I was in junior high school. I no longer shoot in competitions, but I do shoot a ton of prairie dogs. Yup, bought an AT to shoot p-dogs. Might sound dumb, but an AI is on my bucket list of rifles to own. I have never even handled one, but I want one, just because. FWIW, a Ruger precision rifle, or a Savage Stealth, would make more sense for an old fart living on a pension and social security.

My money, my itch to scratch, and my business. I guess I at least got a useful chambering. ​

 

[Bradu]

Well, I guess I'm ignorant, dumb, or retarded then...

I was gonna stay out of this thread, but that was too broad a brush to ignore.

So I guess all the pilots rocking an E6B, HSI/VOR setup, and paper charts are ignorant, dumb, or retarded for not upgrading to a CX-2 Pathfinder, GPS, and an EFB/iPad too, huh?

If it works for you, and you like it, then rock it. But there's no need to throw out insults over it. A GPS approach is cake compared to a VOR approach, but I know a lot of pilots who can fly a rock solid VOR approach in their sleep, and they've already invested in the panel and practice to use it. Why spend a ton of money to change if you like it and you're good at it?

Likewise, I know a number of guys who have invested considerable time and money setting up for .308, and it works well for them. They know they're not going to win any PRS Finales anytime soon, but they hold their own at local matches and put meat on the table just fine. I fail to see how that makes them retarded.

But I guess I better stop now and go back to being my same ol' ignorant, dumb, retarded self for owning and enjoying a .308 (and an AI)!

Almost all my shooting is under 1k so the 308 does just fine for me. I like my 260s as well but there will always be a couple 308s in the safe. Another dumbass AI 308 owner here lol. I have a trg 22 on the way and one of the barrels happen to be a 308 as well lol

 

[Basher]

Almost all my shooting is under 1k so the 308 does just fine for me. I like my 260s as well but there will always be a couple 308s in the safe. Another dumbass AI 308 owner here lol. I have a trg 22 on the way and one of the barrels happen to be a 308 as well lol

I'm pretty sure I heard Frank say in the EDS podcast that he still shoots his .308s quite regularly. Is it the perfect cartridge? No. Are there better performing rounds out there? Yes. But it still works just fine in skilled hands!