Gunsmithing Defiance Machine

[wnroscoe]

Cant say enough good about Glen Harrison and crew at Defiance Machine. They just keep getting better...............and busier.

Some of his latest work, the bolt lift is super slick and smooth. This receiver is slated for a 6.5 Creedmoor build for an LEO. Enjoy.

 

[nutzo396]

Re: Defiance Machine

Love the integrated rail and the deep flutes on the bolt. Please tell me it has a 60 degree bolt lift.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

Standard two lug design, lifts like a 700. Glen would appreciate the rail comment, it's held in place with 8x40 screws and 2 pins. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[nutzo396]

Re: Defiance Machine

LOL.It really looks like a small radius above your logo leading into the rail. Nice work either way. Any thought of making a 3 lug short throw?

 

[neeley205]

Re: Defiance Machine

glad to hear these are thought of so well. i just ordered a rifle from George and threw down the extra coin for the defiance built action. im looking very forward to it.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stiggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL.It really looks like a small radius above your logo leading into the rail. Nice work either way. Any thought of making a 3 lug short throw? </div></div>

I have been thinking about pushing Defiance to do a 3 lug design and after some thought I really dont see a justifiable difference to do so. In my opinion here are the pros and cons.

Pros
60 Degree bolt lift

extractor placed in the correct position

Good feeding from a magazine



Cons
Possibly more expensive to manufacture

Not quite sure if 3 lugs is stronger or weaker than 2

Stiffer bolt lift because the bolt is unlocking, cocking and extracting in 60 degrees instead of 90.


So the only real benefit that is 100% true is proper extractor placement and a 60 degree lift is physically shorter than a 90.
I dont know if the benefits outweigh the cost and time to tool up a whole new design.

Just some thoughts.

Mark

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nly205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">glad to hear these are thought of so well. i just ordered a rifle from George and threw down the extra coin for the defiance built action. im looking very forward to it. </div></div>

You spent wisely grasshopper. Now, add the AW cut and you'll really be in high cotton.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Defiance Machine

Wow! Looking good. I ordered my LHRP Defiance action last month, should be done soon, hope it looks that good.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Defiance Machine

Nice to see they turned the flutes around on the bolt.

It looks good.

 

[nutzo396]

Re: Defiance Machine

Is the bolt lift on a Sako 995 really that much harder than a Rem700 or Win70? I met a guy at the range once with a 995 and the shorter bolt throw seemed like a great idea, but I admit that i didn't try manipulating the bolt.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Defiance Machine

The throw on my sako's is super easy to work, way easier than my badgers, personally I prefer the 60 degree throw over the 90 degree bolts but I will say that the Defiance actions I have handled have been very slick

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice to see they turned the flutes around on the bolt.

It looks good. </div></div>

Thats a change I made.

 

[LRI]

Re: Defiance Machine

Working for Glen at Nesika was a real treat.

Very determined individual. Glad to see him and Lisa doing well.

I've built a half dozen or so rifles on the Defiance actions. All have worked exceptionally well.

Great folks, great company.

C

 

[gamma]

Re: Defiance Machine

Yes Glenn and Lisa are two great people, there actions are becoming a huge favourite with my customers. Amazing people at Defiance Machine, seriously brilliant quality components, unbelievable customer service and great turnaround times, not to mention great prices for such top notch kit.

 

[bohem]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Cons
<span style="font-weight: bold">1 </span>Possibly more expensive to manufacture

<span style="font-weight: bold">2 </span>Not quite sure if 3 lugs is stronger or weaker than 2

<span style="font-weight: bold">3 </span>Stiffer bolt lift because the bolt is unlocking, cocking and extracting in 60 degrees instead of 90.


</div></div>

Mark-

I've done quite a bit of detailed hand calculations and finite element analysis on various lug configurations (up to, and including 6 locking lugs for a 30* throw).

With modern tooling #1 is really a non-issue.

#2 can be stronger or weaker, the configuration of the lugs, mating geometry in the receiver, materials, etc. have a large amount to do with the "strength" of an action. Taking the Sako TRG42 for example though, it is a very stiff bolt head. The Remington 700 has a stiff bolt head as well.

The difference that would drive me into a Sako design over a Remington design is the receiver lockup region and the stiffness of the design there.

There are a lot of things to consider between a 2, 3, or 4 (RPA Quadlock for example) but they can all be made sufficiently "strong" to never worry about stretching out the receiver under even what most consider harsh conditions.

The issue with #3 is recurring. You have a lot of room to do the work needed for cocking and extraction in a 90* bolt throw. The 60* requires that work to be done in 2/3 the distance and therefore all else being the same, the bolt lift will "feel" 50% heavier. On the RPA Quadlock the work is done in 50% of the distance and the bolt lift (again, everything else being equal) would feel to be twice as heavy.

There are ways to help mitigate these things as we've seen from the Badger Gen 2 action updates and the David Tubb replacement parts that many guys have run in them, but the fact remains that a short bolt throw causes a lot of "work arounds" to be employed.

This is probably the single biggest issue that many shooters and other engineers that I've discussed the topic with come back to. That is user interface and the tribology (generally perceived as the "feel") of the system.

ETA: The above comments are pretty far "off topic" from Mr. Roscoe's initial posts, so I'd like to just say in addition:

VERY NICE! I have a receiver on order from Skunkworks (also a Defiance procured action) and I have been dreaming about the day it arrives for some time now. I can't wait to get it in hand.

 

[holy cow]

Re: Defiance Machine

That action looks very nice and i swear the rail does look as if it was machined into the action. Mike Bush is building a rifle for me with a Defiance action and i can"t wait to try it out. He also is building another rifle but it is being built on a Bat action with the recoil lug and rail incorporated in it. I will like checking the difference out between the 2 actions when i get them. Have you worked with any of their actions and what is your take on them. I have had a few and like them very well. Never had a Defiance and i hear nothing but rave about them. They just may be the action i use for my builds after i get this 1 back. I would like to see or have an option to have a recoil lug on the bottom as my Bat to build a switch barrel varmint rifle and not have to deal with a recoil lug inbetween the barrel and action. That is just my personal preference. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant say enough good about Glen Harrison and crew at Defiance Machine. They just keep getting better...............and busier.

Some of his latest work, the bolt lift is super slick and smooth. This receiver is slated for a 6.5 Creedmoor build for an LEO. Enjoy.

</div></div>

 

[RBros]

Re: Defiance Machine

You guys will love the Defiance actions! Just finished up 3 more builds today built on our signature receiver that they build for us. Have more receivers on the shelf, always amazes me how smooth they are and the finish is flawless.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

Yea, been running them for a few months now and they do shoot. I talk to Glen on a fairly regular basis and he's always talking about raising the bar. I swear each receiver I get from him is a little better than the last and the first was stellar.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Cons
<span style="font-weight: bold">1 </span>Possibly more expensive to manufacture

<span style="font-weight: bold">2 </span>Not quite sure if 3 lugs is stronger or weaker than 2

<span style="font-weight: bold">3 </span>Stiffer bolt lift because the bolt is unlocking, cocking and extracting in 60 degrees instead of 90.


</div></div>

Mark-

I've done quite a bit of detailed hand calculations and finite element analysis on various lug configurations (up to, and including 6 locking lugs for a 30* throw).

With modern tooling #1 is really a non-issue.

#2 can be stronger or weaker, the configuration of the lugs, mating geometry in the receiver, materials, etc. have a large amount to do with the "strength" of an action. Taking the Sako TRG42 for example though, it is a very stiff bolt head. The Remington 700 has a stiff bolt head as well.

The difference that would drive me into a Sako design over a Remington design is the receiver lockup region and the stiffness of the design there.

There are a lot of things to consider between a 2, 3, or 4 (RPA Quadlock for example) but they can all be made sufficiently "strong" to never worry about stretching out the receiver under even what most consider harsh conditions.

The issue with #3 is recurring. You have a lot of room to do the work needed for cocking and extraction in a 90* bolt throw. The 60* requires that work to be done in 2/3 the distance and therefore all else being the same, the bolt lift will "feel" 50% heavier. On the RPA Quadlock the work is done in 50% of the distance and the bolt lift (again, everything else being equal) would feel to be twice as heavy.

There are ways to help mitigate these things as we've seen from the Badger Gen 2 action updates and the David Tubb replacement parts that many guys have run in them, but the fact remains that a short bolt throw causes a lot of "work arounds" to be employed.

This is probably the single biggest issue that many shooters and other engineers that I've discussed the topic with come back to. That is user interface and the tribology (generally perceived as the "feel") of the system.

ETA: The above comments are pretty far "off topic" from Mr. Roscoe's initial posts, so I'd like to just say in addition:

VERY NICE! I have a receiver on order from Skunkworks (also a Defiance procured action) and I have been dreaming about the day it arrives for some time now. I can't wait to get it in hand. </div></div>

Well thought out response. Looking forward to meeting up at SHOT, heck I might even let you buy me a beer! haha.

Mark

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dan Tucker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to see or have an option to have a recoil lug on the bottom as my Bat to build a switch barrel varmint rifle and not have to deal with a recoil lug inbetween the barrel and action. That is just my personal preference. </div></div>

Call Glen and ask about my "20x" receiver. It's a single shot that Glen and I worked on as a switch barrel BR & F-Class Open receiver. I think you'll be pleasently surprised. No recoil lug to bother with and a coned bolt / breech design. There are several other design features simular to my LPR1.

 

[bohem]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Cons
<span style="font-weight: bold">1 </span>Possibly more expensive to manufacture

<span style="font-weight: bold">2 </span>Not quite sure if 3 lugs is stronger or weaker than 2

<span style="font-weight: bold">3 </span>Stiffer bolt lift because the bolt is unlocking, cocking and extracting in 60 degrees instead of 90.


</div></div>

Mark-

I've done quite a bit of detailed hand calculations and finite element analysis on various lug configurations (up to, and including 6 locking lugs for a 30* throw).

With modern tooling #1 is really a non-issue.

#2 can be stronger or weaker, the configuration of the lugs, mating geometry in the receiver, materials, etc. have a large amount to do with the "strength" of an action. Taking the Sako TRG42 for example though, it is a very stiff bolt head. The Remington 700 has a stiff bolt head as well.

The difference that would drive me into a Sako design over a Remington design is the receiver lockup region and the stiffness of the design there.

There are a lot of things to consider between a 2, 3, or 4 (RPA Quadlock for example) but they can all be made sufficiently "strong" to never worry about stretching out the receiver under even what most consider harsh conditions.

The issue with #3 is recurring. You have a lot of room to do the work needed for cocking and extraction in a 90* bolt throw. The 60* requires that work to be done in 2/3 the distance and therefore all else being the same, the bolt lift will "feel" 50% heavier. On the RPA Quadlock the work is done in 50% of the distance and the bolt lift (again, everything else being equal) would feel to be twice as heavy.

There are ways to help mitigate these things as we've seen from the Badger Gen 2 action updates and the David Tubb replacement parts that many guys have run in them, but the fact remains that a short bolt throw causes a lot of "work arounds" to be employed.

This is probably the single biggest issue that many shooters and other engineers that I've discussed the topic with come back to. That is user interface and the tribology (generally perceived as the "feel") of the system.

ETA: The above comments are pretty far "off topic" from Mr. Roscoe's initial posts, so I'd like to just say in addition:

VERY NICE! I have a receiver on order from Skunkworks (also a Defiance procured action) and I have been dreaming about the day it arrives for some time now. I can't wait to get it in hand. </div></div>

Well thought out response. Looking forward to meeting up at SHOT, heck I might even let you buy me a beer! haha.

Mark </div></div>

Lookin' forward to it

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: Defiance Machine

I have a Defiance "Rebel" action on a 6.5 and it's the best action that I have ever owned as far as feel and function.

 

[salmonaxe]

Re: Defiance Machine

I really want one of these actions. 700 footprint. AW mags. Helical cam surface. Extended bolt knob.

I have been wondering if they are one piece bolts. (In regards to the handle.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Defiance Machine

The bolts are 1 piece bolts from solid billet.

You will be very pleased, the surface finish is excellent also.

Mark

 

[scotharr]

Re: Defiance Machine

He made me a tubegun action that has been just a dream to use. Got three of his actions and not a single problem with any of them.

I recently decided to stray from the path a little and picked up a Barnard s action for a prone rifle. I've heard the Barnard is a real good action, but I KNOW all my Defiance actions are flawless.

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: Defiance Machine

I have one on my .338 "quiet". Like jewlery.

 

[KYS]

Re: Defiance Machine

^^^^^^^^^ MY EYES!!!! ahhhhh

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Defiance Machine

if bolt lift is so much harder in a three lug, can making the bolt handle a bit longer help reducing the feel by having more leverage. If so, it wouldn't be a situation
what say you?

PS: I am saving $ for one of these beauties.

 

[bohem]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if bolt lift is so much harder in a three lug, can making the bolt handle a bit longer help reducing the feel by having more leverage. If so, it wouldn't be a situation
what say you?

PS: I am saving $ for one of these beauties. </div></div>

Yes, that was one of the work-arounds that I was hinting at in my post above. Work is Force*Distance and spring energy is Spring Rate * (position2^2-position1^2)

So to get the same striker energy out of the spring for a shorter cocking cam, you need to run a stiffer spring and/or preload it a bunch more.

Then, given a specific length handle, the cocking force "feels" heavier. So you have to run a longer handle to make it "feel" the same.

I don't mean to get too far off topic in Mr. Roscoe's post, but these are some of the considerations involved with running a 3 lug over a 2 lug.

There are many others, this is just 1 of them (and incidentally, probably one of the easier ones to solve).

Thanks for the interest, like I said above. I can't WAIT to get my UGSW action in for my 7/300 WSM build... it's going to be a shame spraying a coating over that gorgeous finis.

 

[neeley205]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nly205</div><div class="ubbcode-body">glad to hear these are thought of so well. i just ordered a rifle from George and threw down the extra coin for the defiance built action. im looking very forward to it. </div></div>

You spent wisely grasshopper. Now, add the AW cut and you'll really be in high cotton. </div></div>

Oh yes sir. . . That was part of it. I'm pretty exited about it.
6.5CM
AW cut
Modified tubb contour 27"
MCS-T5A w/minichassis.
CG Jackson trigger.

I honestly couldn't justify not getting the defiance action. By the time I bought a standard action and paid for truing, bolt handle, side bolt release, extractor upgrade, and whatever else needed to be done, plus the scope base I would have spent about the same money without the benefit of the superrior materials and purpose built prefection.

 

[John L]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He made me a tubegun action that has been just a dream to use. Got three of his actions and not a single problem with any of them.

I recently decided to stray from the path a little and picked up a Barnard s action for a prone rifle. I've heard the Barnard is a real good action, but I KNOW all my Defiance actions are flawless.

</div></div>

Scooter,
You will like the Barnard as much as your Defiance actions. Very easy bolt lift, and smooth as butter. Just not as easy on the eyes.

 

[scotharr]

Re: Defiance Machine

I got a chance to fondle a Barnard today. Suprisingly, the bolt lift was easier than my Defiance action. I'm not sure how that is possible since it is a 3-lug action, but it was. Interestingly, the person who had the Barnard won the F-Class match with a 593-35: nice! I asked the owner about any problems with the action jamming or gumming up because a lot of "precision" actions are so tight they handle dirt poorly. He said he's had no problems and shoots a lot of places out west and does not clean until matches are over.

 

[bohem]

Re: Defiance Machine

Barnard runs a roller bearing on the cocking cam I believe.

 

[71firebird400]

Re: Defiance Machine

William- Have you ever considering doing an integrated recoil lug on the Defiance? Or is it not as important as some believe? Just wondering because it seems like a good idea (along with an integrated rail) but it's tough to say how much these things matter in the real world.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">William- Have you ever considering doing an integrated recoil lug on the Defiance? Or is it not as important as some believe? Just wondering because it seems like a good idea (along with an integrated rail) but it's tough to say how much these things matter in the real world.</div></div>

I've thought about it quite a bit and did consider the 591's as my main receiver. While Preston and gang at Surgeon make a killer product I wanted something slightly different.

My scope rail and recoil lug are double pinned for the same reason that the 591 incorporates the integral features.

From time to time I have clients that request the 591 and I build the rifle to their specs. Although I love my receivers the fact that Surgeon is a first class operation is obvious. I use their DBMs exclusively on my builds and try to maintain a good business relationship with them.

 

[John L]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnard runs a roller bearing on the cocking cam I believe. </div></div>

There is no roller on my Barnard. It was purchased 1 1/2 years ago.After having this action I cannot figure out why people say that 3 lug bolts have a harder lift. I will say that the Barnard is the only 3 lug I have ever had in my hands so maybe others are harder, just not the Barnard. Too bad they are so damn ugly.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Defiance Machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnard runs a roller bearing on the cocking cam I believe. </div></div>

BAT Machine

 

[skeetlee]

Re: Defiance Machine

Glen and his wife are great people to deal with and the experience was a pleasure. However i decided not to keep my defiance action, for various reasons. Lee