Desired humidity % for inside safe

[remington patriot]

I keep my safe in the garage and keep something between it and the bare floor. I have an 18" golden rod and a rechargeable dehumidifier inside. I have a digital humidity sensor inside that reads 53% humidity in the summer and about 40% in the cooler months.

What is the ideal humidity to maintain within the safe?

 

[pinklbd]

Don't know the ideal... I am in the same situation and mine stays at 50% or lower year round. On my little scale it says 40-60 is ideal, but I don't know.

 

[LanceS4803]

NRA museum says 70 degrees and 50% humidity.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940963/conservationinfo.pdf

 

[remington patriot]

NRA museum says 70 degrees and 50% humidity.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940963/conservationinfo.pdf

Cool, so I am not doing too bad. May add some window weather stripping or one more dehumidifier to do the trick.

 

[Shoottothrill]

I would say zero would be ideal?

 

[WyGuy]

I would say zero would be ideal?

Not if you have anything with a wood stock.

 

[Pinecone]

The difference between 50% and 53% is MINIMAL.

Anything under 80% will prevent rust (actually under 90% would work).

The problem with high or low humidity is wood stocks. High humidity makes them swell. Low humidity makes them shrink and crack.

 

[Strykervet]

NRA museum says 70 degrees and 50% humidity.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940963/conservationinfo.pdf

50%... 30% and below causes dry rot in wood and higher humidity will lower your dew point while at 100% humidity, your temperature IS the dew point, meaning condensation WILL happen. Ultimately, it's control of the dew point you want, the point where water condenses (on metal in this case, thus causing rust). It's a function of temperature vs. relative humidity.

The intention of the rod is to raise the temperature in the safe to approx. 10deg. higher than that of the ambient temperature outside the safe. This raises relative humidity, but lowers the dew point. Desiccant can lower the humidity within the safe at any fixed temperature, thus further lowering the dew point.

Problems using both is that the desiccant has to be changed (for me a it's a lot) and if the safe is big enough, you may need two rods: one on the bottom, one 2/3rds the way up. Even heating inside helps prevents air exchange. Slightly warmer inside and 45-55% humidity is what you want to aim for.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Anything under 90-80% prevents rust?
Anything over 60% is going to rust most bare metals over time.

Only two kinds of safes, sealed and unsealed, knowing which you have is where you start. Fire seals have to swell to seal. In fact most safes use water in their liners to protect the contents under extreme heat.
That's right, a majority of fireproof safes come loaded from the factory with high humidity liners. In a fire that is released to protect the contents. Think saving paper and documents, folks.
Ever seen a fire proof safe's contents after a real hot fire? You are better off claiming insurance.

Anyway.....when it comes to rust prevention, the issue is sealed and unsealed safes.

The vast, vast majority of safes are unsealed and the use of any heating element will draw cooler, wet air in from the bottom as the dryer, warm air escapes through the top.
A perfect cycle of exactly want one does not want dry air exiting and dragging wet air in. If the air being dragged in is dry air......you do not need to heat it...I haven't used a golden rod in decades.

A sealed safe with a heating element takes whatever humidity is in the safe and circulates it with the warm air. Dry inside? fine, you don't need the heat. Wet? Think hot, airless jungle.
A perfect environment for exactly want you do not want.

The only real way to manage a gun safe in a high humidity area is to to be sure that you use gasketing materials and produce a sealed safe and then dry it out with desiccants.
But it all starts with an excellent hygometer that is accurate and, while you are at it, has an external alarm function. Everyone has a favorite, here is an example.
Cheap Indoor Hygrometer - Best E04 019 Digital Thermo Hygrometer Indoor Outdoor Temperature Online with $14.62/Piece | DHgate
Anything under 50% is just fine, anything under 75 degrees is just fine. The trick is to get there and not have to deal with it for months on end.

Storing perfectly at sea level, hell in the middle of sea is possible, but seal it and dry it.
The days of being able to buy stainless steel rechargers are long gone, now we are left with aluminum container systems.
No plug it in system has enough silica to do the job, making the recharging a common affair. Go BIG and get it done.
750 grams is as large as it gets now, you will need a couple.
Silica is what is used because some of the "garment bag big box store dryers" gas off a wonderful corrosive environment that will piss you off.
Hydrosorbent Silica Gel Desiccant Dehumidifier 750 Gram (Protects 57.

Dry is dry, sealed, desiccants and a good meter.
Go in you safe multiple times a day? You are better off with a cage and an oil cloth.

 

[Pinecone]

50%... 30% and below causes dry rot in wood and higher humidity will lower your dew point while at 100% humidity, your temperature IS the dew point, meaning condensation WILL happen. Ultimately, it's control of the dew point you want, the point where water condenses (on metal in this case, thus causing rust). It's a function of temperature vs. relative humidity.

The intention of the rod is to raise the temperature in the safe to approx. 10deg. higher than that of the ambient temperature outside the safe. This raises relative humidity, but lowers the dew point. Desiccant can lower the humidity within the safe at any fixed temperature, thus further lowering the dew point.

Problems using both is that the desiccant has to be changed (for me a it's a lot) and if the safe is big enough, you may need two rods: one on the bottom, one 2/3rds the way up. Even heating inside helps prevents air exchange. Slightly warmer inside and 45-55% humidity is what you want to aim for.

Changing the temp of the air does NOT change the dew point. Warming the air just ensures that the air never gets down to the dew point.

The only way to change the dew point is to change the amount of moisture in the air. More moisture, higher dew point, less moisture is lower dew point.

Desiccant removes moisture from the air, lowering the dew point. But removing moisture from the air in the safe will pull more moisture into the safe. You can help out by reducing the moisture content in the air outside the safe. use AC or a dehumidifier to lower the dew point/moisture content in the air in the room with the safe.

 

[Outlaw45]

I'm so confused after reading all this. I just bought a big Fort Knoxx safe and a dehumidifing rod. The safe will be in my finished basement, should I get desiccant also?

 

[mark5pt56]

I'm so confused after reading all this. I just bought a big Fort Knoxx safe and a dehumidifing rod. The safe will be in my finished basement, should I get desiccant also?

In the finished basement, a good idea is a room dehumidifier. As Pinecone stated, your just conditioning the air in AND around (room) the safe. I want a freaking basement so bad!

 

[RollingThunder51]

Outlaw,

Pinecone says " But removing moisture from the air in the safe will pull more moisture into the safe. "
This is for unsealed safes. Using a heater exacerbates this enormously as the heater sends the warm air out the top of the safe and draws in much more air from the bottom.
Think through his logic.... if one dehumidifies the air outside the unsealed safe and that room is not sealed then.....the air from outside the unsealed room moves into the room and....into the unsealed safe.
Simplify, seal the safe.

Dew point is of course temp sensitive..
"At a given temperature but independent of barometric pressure, the dew point is a consequence of the absolute humidity, the mass of water per unit volume of air. If both the temperature and pressure rise, however, the dew point will increase and the relative humidity will decrease accordingly. Reducing the absolute humidity without changing other variables will bring the dew point back down to its initial value. In the same way, increasing the absolute humidity after a temperature drop brings the dew point back down to its initial level. If the temperature rises in conditions of constant pressure, then the dew point will remain constant but the relative humidity will drop. For this reason, a constant relative humidity (%) with different temperatures implies that when it's hotter, a higher fraction of the air is water vapor than when it's cooler."
Re-read the last 16 words, twice, out loud..... facing a person that will beat you with a Golden Rod if the words don't sink in.

But we still do not care about dew point as we do not want to use a heater.

A sealed safe is.....sealed.
A sealed safe is not effected by the outside environment.
A sealed safe can only be dried with a desiccant.
SEAL your safe and keep it from freezing.

Buy a couple of 750 gram silica.
Buy a hygrometer.
Dry your sealed safe out, if it is a typical fire proof safe, that could take months.
Once done you will have a stable, dry sealed safe.

Return your heater to the store you bought it from.

 

[Strykervet]

Changing the temp of the air does NOT change the dew point. Warming the air just ensures that the air never gets down to the dew point.

The only way to change the dew point is to change the amount of moisture in the air. More moisture, higher dew point, less moisture is lower dew point.

Desiccant removes moisture from the air, lowering the dew point. But removing moisture from the air in the safe will pull more moisture into the safe. You can help out by reducing the moisture content in the air outside the safe. use AC or a dehumidifier to lower the dew point/moisture content in the air in the room with the safe.

WRONG! OP, forget what this guy said, he's got partial facts but a weak understanding of what they mean. Pay attention from here on! I won't get in a pissing match over this and this'll be the last time I write on this thread as this area of thermodynamics was settled a few hundred years ago.

Read up on dew point on Wikipedia and perhaps look at a humidity/temp table that yields the dew point. Dew point is a function of temp. vs. humidity. Basically you can lower the dew point by increasing the temperature or by reducing the relative humidity at that same temp or higher. Either will fuck up the equation and render the dew point off in your favor. Follow the chart, you'll see.

Heat = lower dew point + increase relative humidity, and note that at 100% relative humidity, you are at the dew point at that temperature as well --you need desiccant if this becomes a problem even if using a rod. Heat plus desiccant = lower dew point +increase in relative humidity (minus part of this increase via desiccant) and overall you have lowered the humidity and the dew point. I can't explain it any simpler.

You can increase humidity with the rod. If the water is in the air, it isn't collecting on rifles. You can also remove some of this excess moisture (ideally humidity should be around 50% give or take a few points) from the air via desiccant if it gets too high, too moist. That's what I'm doing, I had a thread on here looking for simple commercial solutions for a similar problem and found that, short of controlling the temp/hum. in the room with the safes in it, that using the rods in tandem with the desiccant is about the best option currently.

Good luck. Look up my thread if it helps you any. Try to avoid using battery powered devices in your safe, particularly rechargeable ones. I know some of you use 'em and like 'em, but electrically speaking, a proper 110/120v installed device is better/safer.

 

[Pinecone]

Nope, the dew point is the point where the air is saturated with water. The warmer the air, the more moisture it can hold. The colder, the less. If the dew point is 50F, then cooling the air to 50F will cause the water to condense. If you say the dew point is temp dependent, then when you cool the air to 50F, the dew point would be lower and the water would not condense.

The RELATIVE HUMIDITY changes as the temp changes, as this is the ratio of the amount of water in the air versus the amount of water the air can hold.

 

[MJY65]

I believe that all you are trying to accomplish with a Golden Rod is to raise the temperature inside the safe (and the guns with it) by a few degrees over the room temperature. That will keep any moisture from condensing on the metal surface regardless of the ambient humidity/dew point.

 

[pinklbd]

Easy solution.... Buy a dehumidifier. Screw the dew point.

 

[Pinecone]

I believe that all you are trying to accomplish with a Golden Rod is to raise the temperature inside the safe (and the guns with it) by a few degrees over the room temperature. That will keep any moisture from condensing on the metal surface regardless of the ambient humidity/dew point.

Basically. Even if the outside air was saturated (fog), raising the temp inside the safe will prevent condensation.

 

[Outlaw45]

Just got my safe today and loaded it up. I plan to get a hygrometer to put in it. I have a golden rod in the bottom, may get another, and then plan to get some desiccant.

Does the rod cancel out the work of the desiccant by pulling in cooler air by exchange of air?

The safe does have a seal around the door in addition to the fire seal, it appears air tight.

 

[BDA2]

I think the easiest solution is to move to Colorado... We don't need any of that shit here.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Yea, Colorado....that's the place to be...soon you won't even need a gun safe in Calirado.
Its the real American West, open, free and, well... just THE place to be right now.

Federal judge upholds Colorado's new gun-control laws
By Kirk Mitchell and John Aguilar
The Denver Post
Posted: 06/26/2014 03:10:37 PM MDT1459 Comments | Updated: 29 days ago

A federal judge on Thursday upheld Colorado's new gun-control laws that mandated background checks for all gun sales and limited the capacity of ammunition magazines to no more than 15 rounds.
U.S. District Chief Judge Marcia Krieger issued her 50-page ruling on the 2013 laws after a two-week civil trial in late March and early April in Denver.
The lawsuit was originally filed by plaintiffs including sheriffs, gun shops, outfitters and shooting ranges. Krieger ruled last year that the sheriffs could not sue the state in their official capacities but they could join the lawsuit as private citizens. Krieger determined that the plaintiffs lacked standing in their lawsuit. Colorado Attorney General John Suthers' office represented defendant Gov. John Hickenlooper, who signed bills into law last year that expanded background checks and created ammunition magazine limits.

"Like Judge Krieger, the Colorado Attorney General's Office has never asserted that the laws in question are good, advise or sound policy. As it does in all cases, the AG's Office has fulfilled its responsibility to defend the constitutionality of the Colorado law in question," Suthers said in a news release.

"The Attorney General's Office fully expects the case to be appealed and looks forward to final resolution of the issues as soon as possible."
Sen. Mary Hodge, D-Thornton, who was the Senate sponsor of the bill, praised the judge's decision.

"This is public safety. Having people have to pause to reload saves lives," Hodge said. "These school shooters, for the most part, did not know how to reload their weapons, so this limit on large-capacity magazines is good. Besides, the air here is really, really dry so the rust issue is non existent. It is a choice, no rust or C-Mags, but you can't have both. Besides, Beyonce is going to appear at the Westminister Theater soon to raise funds to have them stop using wolves as their mascot, the doggies really hate it, so who really cares about....about....what was I just talking about?"

Plaintiffs claimed the new laws impinged on their right to keep and bear arms. They promised a new legal challenge in the 10th Circuit Court.
"While we respect the judge's ruling today, we believe that it is plainly wrong on the law and on the facts," Weld County Sheriff John Cooke said at a Denver press conference Thursday. "John Hickenlooper knows that the (former New York City Mayor Michael) Bloomberg anti-gun laws are a failure." Cooke, who made headlines last year when he said he wouldn't enforce the new gun control measures, said the laws are convoluted and impractical. "They are still unenforceable," he said. "And that is borne out in that there has not been one arrest on these two laws to date."
Chad Vorthmann, executive vice president of the Colorado Farm Bureau, said the measures put an undue burden on farmers and ranchers in the state.
It's not practical or fair, he said, to ask a ranch hand to drive hours to the nearest federally licensed firearms dealer to do the necessary background checks before being able to use his employer's gun. "The use of firearms on Colorado farms and ranches is integral to the success of their operations and a part of normal, everyday activities," he said. "A sweeping ban on magazines and the unworkable system of background checks for temporary transfers and private sales of firearms places an unconstitutional burden on our members." Krieger's ruling says "the Supreme Court does not equate the Second Amendment 'right to keep and bear arms' to guarantee an individual the right to use any firearm one chooses for self-defense. That choice is best made by an elected official that has never owned a firearm but is a really good fund raiser.'"

The Supreme Court had previously ruled that the Second Amendment did not authorize a right to keep and carry "any weapons whatsoever."[/I][/U][/B] It allows legislatures to prohibit civilian use of certain weapons commonly used in military service, such as M-16 rifles. When asked if the court knew what an M-16 rifle was, the answer was the model after the M-15.

The Second Amendment guarantees the use of weapons commonly used "at the time" for self defense. Krieger noted that no evidence was produced at the two-week trial that indicated a person's ability to defend himself is seriously diminished if magazines are limited to 15 rounds. "Of the many law enforcement officials called to testify, none were able to identify a single instance in which they were involved where a single civilian fired more than 15 shots in self defense," she noted. "I believe that we can work on getting that number up considerably, perhaps by increasing the number of assailants or making gun owners wear glasses that have very dark lenses."

Defendants argued that legislators passed laws to increase public safety following mass shootings including the Columbine High School massacre in 1999 and the Aurora movie theater shootings in 2012. Advocates for the legislature's tougher gun laws, including Dave Hoover, the uncle of AJ Boik, who was killed in the Aurora Theater shooting, lauded Krieger's decision.

"As I have said repeatedly, no one is losing their rights by having to reload their gun, but with this simple measure we can reduce the number of victims killed in mass shootings," Hoover said in a statement.

Eileen McCarron, president of Colorado Ceasefire Capitol Fund, said the lawsuit was a waste of time and resources.

"This was a politically-motivated lawsuit that has been grasping at straws from day one," McCarron said in a statement. "These laws are reasonable protections against gun violence that many states have adopted and have repeatedly passed the test of constitutionality."

 

[Double3]

Just got my safe today and loaded it up. I plan to get a hygrometer to put in it. I have a golden rod in the bottom, may get another, and then plan to get some desiccant.

Does the rod cancel out the work of the desiccant by pulling in cooler air by exchange of air?

The safe does have a seal around the door in addition to the fire seal, it appears air tight.

You will be fine with just the goldenrod.

 

[jakhamr81]

Just oil your firearms up, then you don't have to worry about any of this. If you live in a moist climate and store your firearms in the AC, you will need need to oil them up when you take them out or put them away anyways.

Here is a great preventative:

RUST PREVENTIVE No. 2? | Brownells

I moved to Arkansas where the humidity level averages between 80-90%, my safe is in the garage. I have not had a problem with rust; even with my wife parking her car in the garage after driving in the rain.

 

[Strykervet]

Nope, the dew point is the point where the air is saturated with water. The warmer the air, the more moisture it can hold. The colder, the less. If the dew point is 50F, then cooling the air to 50F will cause the water to condense. If you say the dew point is temp dependent, then when you cool the air to 50F, the dew point would be lower and the water would not condense.

The RELATIVE HUMIDITY changes as the temp changes, as this is the ratio of the amount of water in the air versus the amount of water the air can hold.

I think you have this confused. Look at a dew point chart and it should make sense. When the RH is 100% the air is saturated at that temperature and begins to condense. If you have 100% RH, you will need to remove at least some of that (preferably half of that) in order to make use of the rods, which modify the dew point by increasing the temperature and raising RH.

The dew point, by definition, is the point in which water condenses from the air at a given temp. and RH to form dew. This is because dew can form at a range of temperatures with respect to the RH, not only when the air is saturated at 100%. Otherwise we wouldn't need a chart and the dewpoint would just be x temp. at 100% RH. But that's not the case.

RH won't stick to your weapons. Condensation that occurs from temperature swings in relation to the RH will. That's what the rods are for. Now if you use the rods to increase the temp in the safe 10deg. or so higher, along with desiccant to remove excess humidity the rods will create, then you should be able to prevent condensation since if the RH inside the safe is the same or lower than outside the safe, but the temp is slightly higher, then even if the dewpoint is reached outside the safe, it likely won't be reached inside the safe. You can also get a cheap mechanical humidistat at the hardware store in order to monitor it too.

Finally, the more controlled and stable the temp and humidity in the storage area, the easier it will be to control the environment inside the safe. That's my goal.

 

[MJY65]

I think you have this confused. Look at a dew point chart and it should make sense. When the RH is 100% the air is saturated at that temperature and begins to condense. If you have 100% RH, you will need to remove at least some of that (preferably half of that) in order to make use of the rods, which modify the dew point by increasing the temperature and raising RH.

Increasing the temp of a given air mass LOWERS RH

The dew point, by definition, is the point in which water condenses from the air at a given temp. and RH to form dew. This is because dew can form at a range of temperatures with respect to the RH, not only when the air is saturated at 100%. Otherwise we wouldn't need a chart and the dewpoint would just be x temp. at 100% RH. But that's not the case.

RH won't stick to your weapons. Condensation that occurs from temperature swings in relation to the RH will. That's what the rods are for. Now if you use the rods to increase the temp in the safe 10deg. or so higher, along with desiccant to remove excess humidity the rods will create, (The rods cannot create humidity. The quantity of water in the air mass is unchanged) , then you should be able to prevent condensation since if the RH inside the safe is the same or lower than outside the safe, but the temp is slightly higher, then even if the dewpoint is reached outside the safe, it likely won't be reached inside the safe. You can also get a cheap mechanical humidistat at the hardware store in order to monitor it too.

Finally, the more controlled and stable the temp and humidity in the storage area, the easier it will be to control the environment inside the safe. That's my goal.[/QUOTE

There's a whole lot of partial facts and misconceptions in this entire thread. This really comes down to physics, not witchcraft. Goldenrods work. Dehumidifiers work. Oiling the heck out of your guns works. Doing all three works the best.

 

[Pinecone]

Just oil your firearms up, then you don't have to worry about any of this. If you live in a moist climate and store your firearms in the AC, you will need need to oil them up when you take them out or put them away anyways.

Here is a great preventative:

RUST PREVENTIVE No. 2? | Brownells

I moved to Arkansas where the humidity level averages between 80-90%, my safe is in the garage. I have not had a problem with rust; even with my wife parking her car in the garage after driving in the rain.

I use Birchwood Casey Sheath (now Barricade). I store my firearms in foam cases, wiped down with Sheath. I have stored firearms for over 15 years without any rust. And for almost 10 years without AC in the house.

 

[Pinecone]

I think you have this confused. Look at a dew point chart and it should make sense. When the RH is 100% the air is saturated at that temperature and begins to condense. If you have 100% RH, you will need to remove at least some of that (preferably half of that) in order to make use of the rods, which modify the dew point by increasing the temperature and raising RH.

Increasing the temp of a given air mass LOWERS RH

The dew point, by definition, is the point in which water condenses from the air at a given temp. and RH to form dew. This is because dew can form at a range of temperatures with respect to the RH, not only when the air is saturated at 100%. Otherwise we wouldn't need a chart and the dewpoint would just be x temp. at 100% RH. But that's not the case.

RH won't stick to your weapons. Condensation that occurs from temperature swings in relation to the RH will. That's what the rods are for. Now if you use the rods to increase the temp in the safe 10deg. or so higher, along with desiccant to remove excess humidity the rods will create, (The rods cannot create humidity. The quantity of water in the air mass is unchanged) , then you should be able to prevent condensation since if the RH inside the safe is the same or lower than outside the safe, but the temp is slightly higher, then even if the dewpoint is reached outside the safe, it likely won't be reached inside the safe. You can also get a cheap mechanical humidistat at the hardware store in order to monitor it too.

Finally, the more controlled and stable the temp and humidity in the storage area, the easier it will be to control the environment inside the safe. That's my goal.[/QUOTE

There's a whole lot of partial facts and misconceptions in this entire thread. This really comes down to physics, not witchcraft. Goldenrods work. Dehumidifiers work. Oiling the heck out of your guns works. Doing all three works the best.

Relative Humidity IS temperature dependent. When the temp goes down, the RH goes up. It is the % of water vapor in the air versus the maximum amount it can hold. Dew point does not change with temp. Dew point is the temp where the air is fully saturated with water vapor.

If you lower the temp of the air to the dew point, you will raise the RH to 100% and water vapor will condense.

Golden Rods work by raising the temp of the air, thus lowering the RH and increasing the temp spread between the temp and dew point. Desiccants work by removing water vapor, thus lowering the dew point (and also the RH at a given temp) and also increasing the spread between the temp and dew point.

Dew point does not change with temp. RH does.

 

[MJY65]

Pinecone,

I believe we are in agreement on all points. Your discussion coincides with the physics and thermodynamics courses I've taken. It's been a few years, but those sorts of things just don't change.