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Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
- Thread starter jrgfox
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Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skeptical of the media report: Common sense indicates that there must be more to it than that. </div></div>
Yeah, i would assume so...How does a gun in a holster end up not only getting fired but pointing in a direction that would cause a fatal wound to someone hugging you. Think there is a lot more to that story.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skeptical of the media report: Common sense indicates that there must be more to it than that. </div></div>
Yeah, i would assume so...How does a gun in a holster end up not only getting fired but pointing in a direction that would cause a fatal wound to someone hugging you. Think there is a lot more to that story.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
I was totally wondering what on earth was up on 2 counts
1. What kind of holster is being used that lets the trigger be pulled by a simple hug or patting?
2. How did she get a bullet through her heart / lung when doing a hug? Was she going down for an extra friendly type hug and didn't understand the difference between the something in his pocket and being happy to see her?
This is one I'd really like to get some more information on, specifically what kind of crazy ass holster was being used?
I was totally wondering what on earth was up on 2 counts
1. What kind of holster is being used that lets the trigger be pulled by a simple hug or patting?
2. How did she get a bullet through her heart / lung when doing a hug? Was she going down for an extra friendly type hug and didn't understand the difference between the something in his pocket and being happy to see her?
This is one I'd really like to get some more information on, specifically what kind of crazy ass holster was being used?
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
I was watching the news reports a bit more and apparently the answer to my first question seems to be that it was a soft material type basic holster.
I guess this is why I'm a firm believer in having the pistols I carry be DA/SA with manual safeties & carry decocked and on safe.
Crazy situation any way you look at it.
I was watching the news reports a bit more and apparently the answer to my first question seems to be that it was a soft material type basic holster.
I guess this is why I'm a firm believer in having the pistols I carry be DA/SA with manual safeties & carry decocked and on safe.
Crazy situation any way you look at it.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
looks/reads like . Hug from behind & most holsters are canted with Muzzle tilt pointed in that direction .
says was a S&W .40 & could be model with internal Hammer w/ Trigger as the safety.
Only 2 people involved & all else past that point is really guessing on how the victim pulled the Trigger & she/victim seems to NOT be Talking about it .
.
looks/reads like . Hug from behind & most holsters are canted with Muzzle tilt pointed in that direction .
says was a S&W .40 & could be model with internal Hammer w/ Trigger as the safety.
Only 2 people involved & all else past that point is really guessing on how the victim pulled the Trigger & she/victim seems to NOT be Talking about it .
.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remnar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm from Michigan and the news report said she hugged him from behind. My guess is shoulder holster. That put the victim in a position to get hit.
Remnar </div></div>
I believe the article said the gun was in his waistband but who the hell knows. In any case i think the M&P's have a grip safety and a trigger safety on them. Even if there is no manuel safety. I don't think they can try to spin this like some sort of gun failure/malfunction.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remnar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm from Michigan and the news report said she hugged him from behind. My guess is shoulder holster. That put the victim in a position to get hit.
Remnar </div></div>
I believe the article said the gun was in his waistband but who the hell knows. In any case i think the M&P's have a grip safety and a trigger safety on them. Even if there is no manuel safety. I don't think they can try to spin this like some sort of gun failure/malfunction.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
It was a party. My bet is that people were drinking and horsing around, then someone did something stupid.
It was a party. My bet is that people were drinking and horsing around, then someone did something stupid.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was a party. My bet is that people were drinking and horsing around, then someone did something stupid. </div></div>
Sounds feasible to me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was a party. My bet is that people were drinking and horsing around, then someone did something stupid. </div></div>
Sounds feasible to me
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the article said the gun was in his waistband but who the hell knows. In any case i think the M&P's have a grip safety and a trigger safety on them. Even if there is no manuel safety. I don't think they can try to spin this like some sort of gun failure/malfunction.</div></div>
You are correct. The radio news report yesterday morning stated she hugged him from behind.
This mornings radio news report had audio from the Detroit police chief stating that it was in the waistband and that they were dancing. The victim had her hands on the officers waist and was behind him. The weapon was department issued.
Still not sure how it all lines up????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the article said the gun was in his waistband but who the hell knows. In any case i think the M&P's have a grip safety and a trigger safety on them. Even if there is no manuel safety. I don't think they can try to spin this like some sort of gun failure/malfunction.</div></div>
You are correct. The radio news report yesterday morning stated she hugged him from behind.
This mornings radio news report had audio from the Detroit police chief stating that it was in the waistband and that they were dancing. The victim had her hands on the officers waist and was behind him. The weapon was department issued.
Still not sure how it all lines up????
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
These kinds of media reports, ones that report a gun simply 'going off', defy common sense because they lack a framework for analysis of what happened.
Calling a discharge an ‘accident’ can mean one of two things: Either that the department makes no distinction between accidents and negligence; or that it distinguishes negligent accidents from justifiable and excusable accidents.
An accidental discharge is a category of unintentional and/or involuntary discharge caused by mechanical failure or some other event that the operator of the firearm could not have prevented and could not have foreseen. The determination that a discharge was negligent (as opposed to accidental) requires a finding with regard to the appropriate standards of care that the operator of the firearm could and should have been observing, meaning: What did the operator of the firearm know and when did he know it?
I have some experience independently investigating the claims of police officers with regard to whether or not a firearm discharged by itself, and I have yet to see one jump off a table and shoot a hole in the wall. However, until they have a framework for analysis of the event, departments are often confused as to how to proceed with this kind of investigation.
Accidental discharges raise questions of ethical and legal responsibility: The issues are 1) Culpability; and 2) Liability.
Key factors in making the distinction between accident and negligence are:
As a matter of fact, the extent to which the operator of the firearm could have foreseen the event that precipitated the discharge; AND
The extent to which the shooter should have foreseen and could have been expected to prevent the event that precipitated the discharge; OR
The extent to which the operator of the firearm can be held (morally or legally) responsible and blameworthy for the event that precipitated the discharge.
These kinds of media reports, ones that report a gun simply 'going off', defy common sense because they lack a framework for analysis of what happened.
Calling a discharge an ‘accident’ can mean one of two things: Either that the department makes no distinction between accidents and negligence; or that it distinguishes negligent accidents from justifiable and excusable accidents.
An accidental discharge is a category of unintentional and/or involuntary discharge caused by mechanical failure or some other event that the operator of the firearm could not have prevented and could not have foreseen. The determination that a discharge was negligent (as opposed to accidental) requires a finding with regard to the appropriate standards of care that the operator of the firearm could and should have been observing, meaning: What did the operator of the firearm know and when did he know it?
I have some experience independently investigating the claims of police officers with regard to whether or not a firearm discharged by itself, and I have yet to see one jump off a table and shoot a hole in the wall. However, until they have a framework for analysis of the event, departments are often confused as to how to proceed with this kind of investigation.
Accidental discharges raise questions of ethical and legal responsibility: The issues are 1) Culpability; and 2) Liability.
Key factors in making the distinction between accident and negligence are:
As a matter of fact, the extent to which the operator of the firearm could have foreseen the event that precipitated the discharge; AND
The extent to which the shooter should have foreseen and could have been expected to prevent the event that precipitated the discharge; OR
The extent to which the operator of the firearm can be held (morally or legally) responsible and blameworthy for the event that precipitated the discharge.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
I'm with the majority here. This doesn't add up, we need more information.
I'm with the majority here. This doesn't add up, we need more information.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
Their is clearly more to a story. I dont know any holster that goes in the waistband that points anywhere near the heart/lungs. UNLESS the girl was under 2 feet tall. ;] Something is missing here.
Their is clearly more to a story. I dont know any holster that goes in the waistband that points anywhere near the heart/lungs. UNLESS the girl was under 2 feet tall. ;] Something is missing here.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mouth Hug. He didn't want to pay when she was on the way back up. Duh!! </div></div>
No, this was a regular cop not Secret Service.
I was thinking more of a lap-dance style of hug, and maybe she was probably trying to access the weapon for whatever reason, plus we don't know what body position he was in (maybe he was bending over i.e. to tie a shoe and the weapon became "unholstered"). I can't imagine how it could have gone off while in holster and hit upwards - unless it was some lame Uncle Mikes "pouch"-style holster. I highly doubt this is going to be a holster issue though...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mouth Hug. He didn't want to pay when she was on the way back up. Duh!! </div></div>
No, this was a regular cop not Secret Service.
I was thinking more of a lap-dance style of hug, and maybe she was probably trying to access the weapon for whatever reason, plus we don't know what body position he was in (maybe he was bending over i.e. to tie a shoe and the weapon became "unholstered"). I can't imagine how it could have gone off while in holster and hit upwards - unless it was some lame Uncle Mikes "pouch"-style holster. I highly doubt this is going to be a holster issue though...
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrgfox</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remnar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm from Michigan and the news report said she hugged him from behind. My guess is shoulder holster. That put the victim in a position to get hit.
Remnar </div></div>
I believe the article said the gun was in his waistband but who the hell knows. In any case i think the M&P's have a grip safety and a trigger safety on them. Even if there is no manuel safety. I don't think they can try to spin this like some sort of gun failure/malfunction. </div></div>
M&Ps have a trigger safety and a drop safety as well as an optional manual thumb safety. At this point there is no knowing whether the pistol in question had the manual safety. Additionally, this whole thing sounds like ass covering bullshit.
Detroit...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrgfox</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remnar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm from Michigan and the news report said she hugged him from behind. My guess is shoulder holster. That put the victim in a position to get hit.
Remnar </div></div>
I believe the article said the gun was in his waistband but who the hell knows. In any case i think the M&P's have a grip safety and a trigger safety on them. Even if there is no manuel safety. I don't think they can try to spin this like some sort of gun failure/malfunction. </div></div>
M&Ps have a trigger safety and a drop safety as well as an optional manual thumb safety. At this point there is no knowing whether the pistol in question had the manual safety. Additionally, this whole thing sounds like ass covering bullshit.
Detroit...
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
Latest news I heard was a news report where she was doing a sort of exotic dance and on her knees at the time the weapon discharged. Supposedly her hands were on his belt line and his were no where near the belt line. Of course the mother screamed foul that her daughter would ever do such a thing!
I think that is the most likely explanation, but we'll she how it all comes out in the wash
Latest news I heard was a news report where she was doing a sort of exotic dance and on her knees at the time the weapon discharged. Supposedly her hands were on his belt line and his were no where near the belt line. Of course the mother screamed foul that her daughter would ever do such a thing!
I think that is the most likely explanation, but we'll she how it all comes out in the wash
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
Guns just don't decide to discharge themselves. They have to be manipulated in some manner in order to cause them to discharge. I'm guessing that something got bunched up inside the trigger guard/trigger area, and the additional pressure of the hug gave the trigger the final nudge needed to set off the firearm.
It matters not at all to me whether it was an innocent hug, some lap dance, or outright sex, the firearm had to be manipulated to fire.
Guns just don't decide to discharge themselves. They have to be manipulated in some manner in order to cause them to discharge. I'm guessing that something got bunched up inside the trigger guard/trigger area, and the additional pressure of the hug gave the trigger the final nudge needed to set off the firearm.
It matters not at all to me whether it was an innocent hug, some lap dance, or outright sex, the firearm had to be manipulated to fire.
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
Still take a very controlled 4# - 5# to pull the trigger on a safety nazi consious gun. I cannot see how that would be possible without direct, knowledgable, action from one individual or the other. I at least also suspect the news source as not being very trustworthy as well as possible bias which would slant the entire article against overall gun ownership
Still take a very controlled 4# - 5# to pull the trigger on a safety nazi consious gun. I cannot see how that would be possible without direct, knowledgable, action from one individual or the other. I at least also suspect the news source as not being very trustworthy as well as possible bias which would slant the entire article against overall gun ownership
Re: Detroit Woman Dead After Hugging Off-Duty Cop
From the article: "The story keeps changing. There's no logical reason," she said. "Why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?"
Me: All handguns need a round in the chamber or they don't really help you. I don't agree w/having any firearm while drinking alcohol.
From the article: "The story keeps changing. There's no logical reason," she said. "Why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?"
Me: All handguns need a round in the chamber or they don't really help you. I don't agree w/having any firearm while drinking alcohol.
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