Did I just screw my rifle by shooting surplus cupronickel bullets through it?

[skyfire1201]

Hi guys,

Long story short, I have a 308win Colt LE901 with chrome lined barrel. When I first got the rifle, it was holding sub-MOA accuracy with factory 175gr Fiocchi match ammo. I bought a thousand rounds of AM2030 148gr surplus with cuprronickel FMJ for plinking and training, and shot a few hundred rounds of it through the rifle. Now the same Fiocchi ammo grew to ~2 MOA. Friends suggested me to clean the bore to remove copper fouling, and I realized the same solvent that works for copper may not remove cupronickel fouling. Did I just screw up my rifle by shooting a mixture of both type of bullets? What's the most effective method of removing cupronickel fouling from a chrome bore?

 

[ormandj]

Try Boretech Eliminator first. Follow the directions for heavy copper fouling. If Boretech Eliminator won't get it out, abrasives like JB bore paste are your best bet, you may have nickel fouling. Be very careful not to overdo it, and make sure to follow the directions.

That’s an expensive lesson, which hopefully you can correct; a sub-MOA chrome-lined barrel isn’t something you want to throw away using cheap garbage ammo that everyone should know to never shoot through anything you care about.

 

[skyfire1201]

What should I use to apply these products? A patch followed by nylon brush? A mop?

 

[lte82]

Crazy, those LE901s are pretty pricey to run junk ammo through them! Bolt carrier groups, etc are damn near impossible to find as replacements.

 

[ormandj]

What should I use to apply these products? A patch followed by nylon brush? A mop?

As noted, follow the directions. Nylon brushes and jags with patches. Call Boretech Monday morning and talk to them, they will really be able to help you out, they are very friendly people and their products are some of the best out there for non-abrasive cleaning. Just make sure to use a bore guide with any copper remover, as it can do a number on some fire control parts in trigger packs if they contain metals that would be reacted with. Also, you should have a bore guide, if you're not using one, you need to be. Buy one of those first before you do anything else.

Give them a ring and get the skinny on the whole process for cleaning, aside from your current situation. They have tons of great products but their eliminator and carbon remover products are some of the best. Their brushes and jags are good too, they aren't copper so won't give false indications. Same with their rods. Everyone has favorites when it comes to cleaning, but I've never seen anyone who's tried BT have a bad experience, and the guys on the phone will generally give you a good starting process until you can refine it on your own to get where you want. I suspect they've run into this before, too, and can help you with your specific problem with the least chance/risk of permanent damage.

Good luck and let us know how it works out!

 

[RUTGERS95]

I've not seen any degradation in switching between this and FGMM in mine. Tagged to follow

 

[ormandj]

I've not seen any degradation in switching between this and FGMM in mine. Tagged to follow

As long as you clean often and switch often, you'll probably be ok, but why risk it? If it's a beater gun that shoots 4MOA stock, whatever, but not on a nice rifle with a sub-moa chrome-lined barrel which will last far longer than most if treated well.

 

[RUTGERS95]

As long as you clean often and switch often, you'll probably be ok, but why risk it? If it's a beater gun that shoots 4MOA stock, whatever, but not on a nice rifle with a sub-moa chrome-lined barrel which will last far longer than most if treated well.

I hear you but I've not heard anyone having issues with it. Most people clean after shooting with precision oriented rifles so don't think there would be any buildup so that may account. I shoot it through my SS lmt which prints .7ish with fgmm. I've shot a metric ton crap load of it through a beater gun and don't clean and still haven't ever experienced any loss in accuracy. When the brits did their extensive testing for the 303 with cupornickle, they found buildup was a result of barrel imperfections and not the ammo.

interesting nonetheless but I found this......

Cupro-nickel bullet coating was specifically introduced for .303 ball as a method of minimising bore fouling with earlier, softer copper jackets. The UK tested millions of rounds during ammunition development pre-WW1, and then went onto produce billions of cupro-nickel plated rounds up until the 1960s. This type of ammunition had a faultless service life, and was still produced by Kynoch right up until the end of the .303 era. In testing, "lumpy" bore fouling was found to be an issue related to poor bore finish, rather than the fault of the bullet. In fact the optimum bullet jacket was thought to be steel, coated with cupro-nickel.

 

[ormandj]

I hear you but I've not heard anyone having issues with it. Most people clean after shooting with precision oriented rifles so don't think there would be any buildup so that may account. I shoot it through my SS lmt which prints .7ish with fgmm. I've shot a metric ton crap load of it through a beater gun and don't clean and still haven't ever experienced any loss in accuracy. When the brits did their extensive testing for the 303 with cupornickle, they found buildup was a result of barrel imperfections and not the ammo.

interesting nonetheless but I found this......

Cupro-nickel bullet coating was specifically introduced for .303 ball as a method of minimising bore fouling with earlier, softer copper jackets. The UK tested millions of rounds during ammunition development pre-WW1, and then went onto produce billions of cupro-nickel plated rounds up until the 1960s. This type of ammunition had a faultless service life, and was still produced by Kynoch right up until the end of the .303 era. In testing, "lumpy" bore fouling was found to be an issue related to poor bore finish, rather than the fault of the bullet. In fact the optimum bullet jacket was thought to be steel, coated with cupro-nickel.

If you haven't run across the numerous threads about issues with cupronickel jacketed bullets and issues with accuracy/fouling, consider yourself lucky. Nickel fouling is no joke to clean.

 

[RUTGERS95]

If you haven't run across the numerous threads about issues with cupronickel jacketed bullets and issues with accuracy/fouling, consider yourself lucky. Nickel fouling is no joke to clean.

I'm sure but there are far more threads of guys of using it with no problem. Also, if you shoot fmj brass after using it, you won't have any issues. That German stuff has a great reputation for accuracy from surplus ammo. Never once heard an issue and all my research suggests it's not really the ammo. That and of course, the internet myth and lore dies hard and it's full of idiots. Hey, don't shoot steel the lacquer will melt and gum up your rig..lol

I'd be willing to wager you didn't shoot enough of it to actually build up in the way you are thinking. something else is wrong here

 

[ormandj]

I'm sure but there are far more threads of guys of using it with no problem. Also, if you shoot fmj brass after using it, you won't have any issues. That German stuff has a great reputation for accuracy from surplus ammo. Never once heard an issue and all my research suggests it's not really the ammo. That and of course, the internet myth and lore dies hard and it's full of idiots. Hey, don't shoot steel the lacquer will melt and gum up your rig..lol

I'd be willing to wager you didn't shoot enough of it to actually build up in the way you are thinking. something else is wrong here

I'm not sure your analogy was directed at me, but if it was, I assure you - this is not the case. The reason cupronickel was discontinued in use was fouling. In the lower velocity cartridges it wasn't so much of an issue, but with the advent of the higher velocity cartridges, it became a serious issue. You can believe what you like; I've seen it before through a bore scope, and helped to remove it for those "fortunate" enough to shoot hundreds of rounds of the stuff without cleaning. It's no fun, but it's your rifle!

Yes, shooting other jacketed ammunition intermittently helps, as does routine cleaning, as I called out in my other post. Go blast 500 rounds of cupronickel at HV with a modern cartridge, without cleaning or swapping jacket types, then run a borescope down your barrel and post some pictures. Then clean it out and let us know how that goes.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I'm not sure your analogy was directed at me, but if it was, I assure you - this is not the case. The reason cupronickel was discontinued in use was fouling. In the lower velocity cartridges it wasn't so much of an issue, but with the advent of the higher velocity cartridges, it became a serious issue. You can believe what you like; I've seen it before through a bore scope, and helped to remove it for those "fortunate" enough to shoot hundreds of rounds of the stuff without cleaning. It's no fun, but it's your rifle!

Yes, shooting other jacketed ammunition intermittently helps, as does routine cleaning, as I called out in my other post. Go blast 500 rounds of cupronickel at HV with a modern cartridge, without cleaning or swapping jacket types, then run a borescope down your barrel and post some pictures. Then clean it out and let us know how that goes.

it was discontinued due to costs and regulations on materials needed to produce. You know phosphorus in Germany is akin to building a bomb in NJ lol. The brits and the germans, largest arms producers of this ammo, only stopped due to this, not due to fouling and their testing showed fouling wasn't the issue at all.

I've blasted way more, WAY more than 500 rounds and no issue. I'm not looking to argue and I know tone doesn't come out in messaging so please don't take it that way but I would look at all aspects here (barrel, rifling, bore, bolt head etc). Also, if you your set up is truly a precision set up and I'm talking the thousands of dollars it takes to truly get precision, then you'd be a fool not to shoot anything but the finest and best ammo you can find or make.

My one LMT MWS is set up for precision, I've used this and others through it and I still get .7, sometimes lower, with it, with fgmm 168gr. When I go 175gr, it's .5 area but I've a $hit ton of the 168gr so that is what she gets.

Some guns I clean right after shooting, some sit for very long periods and multiple extended range sessions and simply have not seen this in any 308s or 30-06s that I've used with this nor any of my buddies and my one buddy is sitting on probably 90k of this still, it's all he shoots. (he's a trust fund baby and his ammo stash is more than my house..lol)

 

[skyfire1201]

Seems I've stirred up a hornets nest FWIW, I only suspect the German cupronickel rounds was the cause behind the rifle losing accuracy, since all I have were evidence from shooting the Fiocchi from two range sessions. It could be due to a bunch of other reasons, inadequate bore cleaning being one, though I've only had 500 total through the rifle with various kinds of ammo, only ~200 are of cupronickel.

Thank you everyone, I'll call BoreTech and ask for their advice first, then move to JB if that doesn't work out.

 

[Phil McGrath]

Im not a fan of cleaning my bores with any abrasives so as a std practice, I clean my bores with a 50/50 mixture of my favorite solvent (BBS or #9) and Kroil.

 

[ormandj]

Im not a fan of cleaning my bores with any abrasives so as a std practice, I clean my bores with a 50/50 mixture of my favorite solvent (BBS or #9) and Kroil.

I completely agree, I never use abrasives, but I do use a bore scope and good chemicals. If you let fouling build up to the point you need abrasives, you've already goofed up. Let's not even get started talking about carbon rings and Varget...

 

[ormandj]

Seems I've stirred up a hornets nest FWIW, I only suspect the German cupronickel rounds was the cause behind the rifle losing accuracy, since all I have were evidence from shooting the Fiocchi from two range sessions. It could be due to a bunch of other reasons, inadequate bore cleaning being one, though I've only had 500 total through the rifle with various kinds of ammo, only ~200 are of cupronickel.

Thank you everyone, I'll call BoreTech and ask for their advice first, then move to JB if that doesn't work out.

Good luck! No hornets nest, just healthy debate! Let us know what you figure out. If you had a bore scope, you could figure this out fairly quickly. The teslong rigid rifle borescope you can find online is a pretty great option for the price if you end up getting crazy.

 

[Phil McGrath]

Let's not even get started talking about carbon rings and Varget...

News too me? I like Varget it doesn't seem too be any harder too clean up than any other powder is. Then again I do admit, I burn my share of 4064 and 4320 as well..

 

[skyfire1201]

UPDATE: I called up BoreTech and talked to one of techs. According to him, the cupronickel used in the German surplus has very light nickel content, and their Eliminator should be able to take care of it. I've got it on order and will try it out then report back.

 

[ormandj]

Great! The good news is that’s one of the best copper removers out there, and it’s great in carbon as well, so it’ll be useful in general. Just make sure to use a bore guide, you do not want to get it into fire control parts if they contain copper.

Use a good jag and make sure to let it soak in the barrel, then clean, then soak, then clean until it’s good. You might even wrap a nylon brush with a patch to make sure you get really good coverage.

 

[johnm2213]

I’ve got over 4000 rounds of surplus 7.62 NATO from Germany, Austria, Italy, Australia, and Great Britain through my M&P 10 with zero degradation or build ups. The Germans had thousands and thousands of rounds through their G3’s over the course of 20 years and their armorers said routine maintenance took care of all issues.