I thought it might have something to do with the Wilson gages supporting the entire shoulder of a case rather than the circumference at one particular diameter irrespective of shoulder angle. Definitely allowed me to screw a few dies a few thousandths out over time.
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I think thats why. Ive noticed this too. I use a mitutoyo with the SAC modular comparator as well as a redding instant indicator with a starrett dial gauge. When I measure my go and no go gauges (+.006 diff) both measure at .0055 - when I use my Wilson, it gets it perfectly. Now when I use the same tools for a different cartridge (both have same shoulder angle), all the tools get it right on the money. I now use the Wilson drop in/Mic for setting up sizing and then the instant indicator to measure a ton of the brass to see if there are any big differences. My sizing is pretty consistent - but I have found brass that wont size properly and I pull that out. Not too many but it does happen on occasion.
I do a ladder test at the beginning when testing a new powder I dont know (which seems to be the norm lately) to get an idea of where the nodes are and where I want to test further. I then do a follow up test with with 3-5 rounds at each charge and look at the SDs/ESs of each as well as difference between charge weights to verify that the node is there. This has worked in the past but Im always open to learning different methods doing things better. What would you recommend - or which one of your videos or posts talks about your method?
I really like this CPS so far I upgraded to a AMPMARK II annealer, a Forester press, a autotrickler v3. The CPS is not priced to hight but I'm trying to decide if my next purchase is a SAC die or CPS. Santa can't do both. @orkan Thanks for all the help in the community.
I will leve you with a scripture.
Alma 53 from the Book of Morman
16 But behold, it came to pass they had many sons, who had not entered into a covenant that they would not take their weapons of war to defend themselves against their enemies; therefore they did assemble themselves together at this time, as many as were able to take up arms, and they called themselves Nephites.
17 And they entered into a covenant to fight for the liberty of the Nephites, yea, to protect the land unto the laying down of their lives; yea, even they covenanted that they never would give up their liberty, but they would fight in all cases to protect the Nephites and themselves from bondage.
18 Now behold, there were two thousand of those young men, who entered into this covenant and took their weapons of war to defend their country.
I will leve you with a scripture.
Alma 53 from the Book of Morman
16 But behold, it came to pass they had many sons, who had not entered into a covenant that they would not take their weapons of war to defend themselves against their enemies; therefore they did assemble themselves together at this time, as many as were able to take up arms, and they called themselves Nephites.
17 And they entered into a covenant to fight for the liberty of the Nephites, yea, to protect the land unto the laying down of their lives; yea, even they covenanted that they never would give up their liberty, but they would fight in all cases to protect the Nephites and themselves from bondage.
18 Now behold, there were two thousand of those young men, who entered into this covenant and took their weapons of war to defend their country.
Any chance you could drop a link for this entire setup? Had to edit to be more specific, Thanks..This.
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Whats the mechanism for the shoulder? Hard to see from the pic. It looks like my old bullet sorting stand and my Redding Instant Indicator had a baby. I think if I could get my SAC neck shoulder bushing to properly square up in the Instant Indicator, instead of the provided sleeve, it would probably measure to the .0005 properly.This.
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That totally works!!! I get .006 between the go and no go gauge. I think Im going to take this stand and drill a hole to perfectly hold the gauge in place. Ordering a flat contact point to make it a little more sturdy too.
Although cant wait to see you turn the PrimeWhere into a headspace comparator soon enough.
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Just got some dies for grendel setup, bumping shoulder at 0.0015 back.
I tumbled in rice, imperial wax lube. Brass feels great after rice. Not visually clean (this is suppressed gas gun brass) but it’s got a nice finish on it.
@orkan Quick question: do you lube necks before the mandrel, or does the rice provide lube enough alone?
I plan to batch size what I’ve got, trim, then back in the rice again before primers and seating.
Another question: getting some inconsistent headspaces +/- .001. How big a deal is that?
I tumbled in rice, imperial wax lube. Brass feels great after rice. Not visually clean (this is suppressed gas gun brass) but it’s got a nice finish on it.
@orkan Quick question: do you lube necks before the mandrel, or does the rice provide lube enough alone?
I plan to batch size what I’ve got, trim, then back in the rice again before primers and seating.
Another question: getting some inconsistent headspaces +/- .001. How big a deal is that?
I do. A bore mop one caliber smaller than what I'm working with, and imperial mashed into the end of it. One little twist with not very much imperial in the necks does a fantastic job.
Good find Greg, there is definitely something to it... the only thing to be removed from that test would be the human element..
Haven’t looked through the rest of his videos. But I’m assuming he’s using either an SEB rest or similar.
With that whisper trigger and proper rest, there’s almost no human involved. At least nowhere close to a bipod and rear bag.
Just found it. As suspected, SEB rest and free recoil.
Pretty much no real human error will be present.
Pretty much no real human error will be present.
Bryan is extremely thorough and a fantastic bench rest shooter. Good enough that he has been to Lou Murdica’s tunnel on several occasions. You can see it on some of his videos, where in a perfectly controlled condition, he shoots zeros repeatedly.
That's perfect. He doesn't even use a CPS in the test either. The video is basically going to cost me some sheckles!
IMO, the really great thing about @orkan ’s two tools is that you can measure how much you need to seat the primer completely.
And then with the hard stop on the CPS, you can’t crush it. With a hand primer, you’re going to have a decent chance of crushing or not seating completely on a very tight pocket.
There have been several who claim they see noticeably better performance with some crush on the primer. But it’s hard to quantify unless doing something like the video above.
We are almost finished settling into our new shop and I’ll be testing quite a bit in 2022.
And then with the hard stop on the CPS, you can’t crush it. With a hand primer, you’re going to have a decent chance of crushing or not seating completely on a very tight pocket.
There have been several who claim they see noticeably better performance with some crush on the primer. But it’s hard to quantify unless doing something like the video above.
We are almost finished settling into our new shop and I’ll be testing quite a bit in 2022.
Not true with a premium hand-primer such as the Sinclair or 21st Century. They have an adjustable hard-stop.
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Yet they lack the mechanical force required to overcome the anvil seat uniformly across hundreds of cases without the tool being damaged or the operator becoming so fatigued he loses the ability to so much as operate a fork afterward. ...and because they are cam driven, you can't feel as precisely as you can feel on something with a 1:1 input to output relationship.
Design matters. Those dainty little things in the above picture can't do what the tool in the pic below can do. They simply can't.
Yet I'd ask that if you want to talk about other tools, do it in a different thread.
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In the video it is said that you should NOT uniform your primer pockets especially with Lapua(or Alpha) since they are very uniform to begin with. OK, well too late for my Lapua brass as I used a K&M pocket uniformer on them all thinking I was doing the right thing. There is no mention of if it now matters if I continue to use my Sinclair hand primer or if the CPS will make a difference. Am I screwed? Am I supposed to now measure all my brass to check it? I get the feeling as long as I get a small amount of crush like 2 thou, I should be ok. But the way the video goes, it comes across a bit like Eric is getting a chuckle out of misinformation or whatever. I am not arguing on social media, just trying to learn.
Eric said "they don't know" in reference to the effect of primer seating depth on accuracy. So, he clearly believes that the seating depth of a primer matters for accuracy.
I used the same pocket uniformer on mine and I'm not worried. It changes after firing anyway. I think the CPS allows you to not care about minimal variances in the pocket as long as your using top tier brass.
Not true with a premium hand-primer such as the Sinclair or 21st Century. They have an adjustable hard-stop.
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I was speaking about hand primers where people say “I do just fine with xyz by feel” which is always a very common thing when talking about the CPS.
Well, I was sold so I went to order and saw the indicator was listed on the website as well. So instead of a $600 order it was more like $1150. Thanks for all you do @orkan.
Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas.
Congratulations. I'm sure you will love these new tools. I wish I could afford to get the same setup. Might have to wait until next Christmas. Probably worth the wait.
Alma 9-26
26 And not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, equity, and truth, full of patience, mercy, and long-suffering, quick to hear the cries of his people and to answer their prayers.
At least for me, it was a bit difficult to follow his measurements and how exactly that relates to crush. If I understood his measurements correctly, the pocket depth was .121 and the BR2 primer was .1135. His best depth showed to be .009 which would be .0015 "crush" where the anvils would crush .0015".
Did I get that correct?
Yes. I seem to have come across other information supporting .0010-.0020 of "crush", as working very well, so this seems to coincide with that.
Enjoy the videos, great when I'm on the road for work. Now if I could just retain all the info.
Can wait how we get over this. I sure wish this is on my Christmas list. I can't wait to try it the CPS. Thanks again for the Christmas spirit and all the great Bible verses.
Matthew 2 verse 2
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him
Matthew 2 verse 2
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him
Greg,
Do you ever have any blem that you would sell at a one time low price? Ones that might have a finish problem nothing mechanical. I would love to have one but funds are short. I know you have heard this over and over but you have made a great product and I think you are so right about it.
Just asking
Do you ever have any blem that you would sell at a one time low price? Ones that might have a finish problem nothing mechanical. I would love to have one but funds are short. I know you have heard this over and over but you have made a great product and I think you are so right about it.
Just asking
Here is a follow up test from the same guy. He confirmed the results on different tests.
So I have 1 problem with this ignition discussion. Maybe I missed the answer. I use Lapua brass. I consider it to be great quality but the primer pocket depths still vary. I measured just a few the other day and I got .003 variance. How do you account for that without measuring each case primer?
I'm no expert by any means, but I would guess they are playing the game of aggregate totals.
If you are shooting 150 rounds in a weekend and then do that twice a month for 6 months, what are your odds?
It's also a thing that people shoot the same brass over and over again. Out of say 2x 100 count boxes of brass you might have 15 or 20 sighters for a few different reasons, but you still have isolated your 150 rounds of 'match ammo' or something like that.
I don't know the answer to your question but my opinion is there is nothing that replaces actually shooting. In the process of shooting things can be fine tuned.
Also keep in mind that there are a lot of other variables out there. Assuming you have perfect annealing, perfect seating, perfect powder charges, every single time then you can cull cases that are not doing the right thing.
With the back of my calipers. Which I understand isn’t the best method, but it’s what I have at the moment. Even if it’s .002, from what I’ve gathered that could make a difference?
Well that would be my luck lol. I’ll try measuring again a bit more carefully and see.
Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas
Like Greg said it's basically impossible to get a reading that even close to accurate with the calipers. The variance you get actually exceeds what you would see if you just didn't measure them at all.
I started measuring with calipers and stopped almost immediately when I would measure 3 different times and get a different reading every time. Could not hold a shell and the caliper consistent enough no matter how hard I tried so I started researching other ways. I've been pretty happy with the consistency I get from the tool I have, but had I known that Primal Rights was going to release theirs I would have looked there first because it would make life even easier and more controllable then what I have now.
Merry Christmas to everyone.
Never try to measure anything where you need smaller than +/-.002” discrimination with a caliper. It’s the wrong tool.
So I measured a box of 6.5 PRC Laupa cases and a box of 308. I used the Accuracy One primer depth gauge, which I've had for a while. I used the small primer measurement rod so that I wouldn't be hitting anything but the bottom of the primer pocket. On the 308, variance was .0005. On the 6.5 PRC it was the same. Not sure it is the most accurate tool, but a heck of a lot better than the end of a caliper.
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