Dillon Semi Progressive Usage?

[Srikaleak]

I've got a question for you Dillon progressive folks. I've asked a similar question before but this is slightly different. Imagine the following on a Dillon 650/750 Toolhead regarding .223 dies:

• Stage 1: Sizing, Decapping Die
• Stage 2: Mandrel Die
• Stage 3: Powder drop (using funnel and autotrickler to dispense powder)
• Stage 4: Bullet Seat Die
• Stage 5: Empty

Round 1:
Starting with once fired cases I progressively size and decap brass in stage 1, then run the mandrel through the cases and prime in stage 2. I don't drop powder or seat a bullet in round 1.

Between Round 1 and 2:
I trim the brass to length (with primer in) on a Giraud.

Round 2:
Remove the Locator button (small brass pin) from Stage 3. Insert primed brass into stage 3 slot, raise the main shaft and add powder then seat bullet. By doing this I avoid stages 1 and 2 and jump straight to powder and seating.

Questions:

1. Does having brass in only half the slots and using the dies cause some kind of tilting of the shell holder plate? Is this going to affect concentricity when sizing or seating?
2. Is it safe to trim with a primer in place?
3. Does the bullet seater die (I've got a Redding Micrometer) apply any kind of crimp to the brass? I'm assuming the brass case with no bullet will not touch the inside of the bullet seater die at all.

Why am I trying to pursue this?

• I want to reduce the amount of toolheads I need per caliber. Per current conventions and research I've done, reloading "precision" rifle rounds on progressive presses necessitates 2 toolheads per caliber. I'd like to see if I can maximize the use of the toolheads I have.
• I'm not trying to break benchrest records. 13/16ths MOA is all I'm chasing.

A solid (but dated) resource on loading precision rifle on a progressive press is attached.

 

[Middle Man]

Should work. I’ve hand dropped powder into the cases off the press while loading up small quantities. Then would insert the case into station 4 to seat the bullet. Running more or less as a single stage press.

I‘ve set up several toolheads for rifle that use a universal decapping die and a Dillon powder die to create two points of contact with the shellplate. One in station one and another in station three.

 

[Huskydriver]

Are you pulling the dies off and on between stage 1 and 2? Seems like a huge pita then just having 2 toolheads.


I found I get less run out floating my dies and clamping my tool head. .0005-.001 usually. I played with different set ups for the dies to see if the Shell plate deflection mattered based on how it was loaded. If I float and clamp it's minimal. If I don't, yes the brass is less concentric if the tool head is loaded with just say one sizing die in station one only.

I also try to make sure i have my shellplate as tight as I can get it and still rotate the head.

 

[Sheldon N]

Wasted effort IMO. You're trying to save $30 on not having to buy a second toolhead and are shooting yourself in the foot in the process.

When you just have a sizing toolhead (deprime die, FL size, mandrel) you can run the press super fast. 1000 pieces of brass fully prepped in maybe 30-40 minutes. Toss them in the tumbler and the lube is off and you're done. Load them as needed with whichever method you prefer.

Biggest issue is the lube. If you are going to be trimming brass and loading brass with lube on it, it will be a huge PITA and mess. I can't quite tell if you mean that you'll run two processes simultaneously where the sized/deprimed/reprimed brass gets piled up to get cleaned and trimmed, then a second pile of clean brass is fed into the press as you remove brass? Even if you get around the lube issue that way (your hands will still be covered with lube and that will get on the new cases) it just seems like a REALLY slow workflow and won't ever let you have all your brass on the same cycle (divided workflow). Manually handling cases slows things way down.

I load 223 on a Dillon 1050, and match ammo on a 550, either way I'm doing the same thing. Size all the brass with a sizing toolhead process, goes very quick. Tumble clean, trim if needed, then store as ready to go brass. When time to load it's prime/powder/seat, whether progressive loads with a powder throw or precision loads with a funnel. Close to 5-6k rounds a year loaded this way. Trust me, if there were a better way I'd be all over it.

 

[Airw4ves]

My 550 runs as follows.
It has been upgraded to the clamping cnc toolheads with o-rings on all dies, and the hitfactor shellplate bearing so I can tighten down any slop in the shellplate.

I run one toolhead for each caliber, and a universal decapping die (Mighty armoury) on a separate toolhead because I like to pop primers before cleaning.

- Stage 1) Sizer Die (could leave decapping rod in to pop primers here if wanted)
- Stage 2) Mandrel Die
- Stage 3) Bullet Seater

I prefer hand dropping powder so I do all my resizing, then tumble off lube, drop powder into cases, then once all cases charged, insert into Stage 3, seat bullet, rinse repeat. More single stage style that progressive. I found having the powder drop in stage 3 made inserting a bullet into the case on stage 4 a pita on the 550. Either run two toolheads for charging on the press, or one if charging off the press.

 

[Srikaleak]

Are you pulling the dies off and on between stage 1 and 2?

I plan on not removing the dies, they stay put on the toolhead.

Wasted effort IMO. You're trying to save $30 on not having to buy a second toolhead and are shooting yourself in the foot in the process.

When you just have a sizing toolhead (deprime die, FL size, mandrel) you can run the press super fast. 1000 pieces of brass fully prepped in maybe 30-40 minutes. Toss them in the tumbler and the lube is off and you're done. Load them as needed with whichever method you prefer.

Biggest issue is the lube. If you are going to be trimming brass and loading brass with lube on it, it will be a huge PITA and mess. I can't quite tell if you mean that you'll run two processes simultaneously where the sized/deprimed/reprimed brass gets piled up to get cleaned and trimmed, then a second pile of clean brass is fed into the press as you remove brass? Even if you get around the lube issue that way (your hands will still be covered with lube and that will get on the new cases) it just seems like a REALLY slow workflow and won't ever let you have all your brass on the same cycle (divided workflow). Manually handling cases slows things way down.

I load 223 on a Dillon 1050, and match ammo on a 550, either way I'm doing the same thing. Size all the brass with a sizing toolhead process, goes very quick. Tumble clean, trim if needed, then store as ready to go brass. When time to load it's prime/powder/seat, whether progressive loads with a powder throw or precision loads with a funnel. Close to 5-6k rounds a year loaded this way. Trust me, if there were a better way I'd be all over it.

I'm not trying to save money, just reducing the amount of space the tool heads take up. I'm trying to setup the toolheads I need for each caliber and then not have to adjust them again.

I wasn't going to run two processes simultaneously. Round one would mimic your sizing toolhead (powder drop and bullet seater die would be present on toolhead but shouldn't affect the brass). Between round 1 & 2 I'd remove lube and trim. Then I'd insert the prepped brass directly to stage 3 to drop powder and seat bullet (stage 4).

@Airw4ves I really like what you're proposing and I will try what you have setup.

 

[Sheldon N]

I wasn't going to run two processes simultaneously. Round one would mimic your sizing toolhead (powder drop and bullet seater die would be present on toolhead but shouldn't affect the brass). Between round 1 & 2 I'd remove lube and trim. Then I'd insert the prepped brass directly to stage 3 to drop powder and seat bullet (stage 4).

Okay, I get what you're after. Now while my first inclination would be to just rig up some sort of stand or wall hanging mount to find space for your extra toolheads, you could make it work with a single toolhead approach. in a sense that's what I do with my 1050 since I don't actually change the toolhead, just add and remove dies from empty stations.

On a 650 you woudl have Station 1 Deprime/FL size, Station 3 Mandrel. Set up both with lock rings on the dies, o-rings underneath, and make a witness mark of where the lock ring lines up on the toolhead.

When you are sizing brass you put the FL die into place in the correctly indexed position, and screw in the mandrel die (doesn't matter the exact indexed position). Run the brass through, it will not affect the powder die or the bullet seating die, you can use the case feeder and go full speed.

Then when it comes time to load ammo, you remove the FL die and mandrel from the toolhead, and you can run the brass straight from the case feeder. No need to manually insert brass by hand. Plus, that would also open up the door to using the Dillon powder thrower for progressive loads if you wanted. With 223 and XBR8208 I don't know why you would manually weigh powder anyway.

But seriously, just buy another toolhead. Life will be so much simpler, even if you have to hide it at the bottom of your sock drawer.

 

[jetsurgeon]

Dillon Precision XL650 750 Style toolhead Aluminum CNC tool head By Jofer USA | eBay

You can see the poor finish on those parts due to the lack of rigidity and precision compared to the industrial, high precision CNC machines we use that leave a clean polish and finish and as a result a more precise part.

www.ebay.com

 

[Middle Man]

Dillon Precision XL650 750 Style toolhead Aluminum CNC tool head By Jofer USA | eBay

You can see the poor finish on those parts due to the lack of rigidity and precision compared to the industrial, high precision CNC machines we use that leave a clean polish and finish and as a result a more precise part.

www.ebay.com

I run eight 650 toolheads from Jofer. Jofer also CNC’s a toolhead storage stud that’s super useful. I bolted them to the shelves above my bench...

 

[Rookie]

I agree with Sheldon N, dont know why you are weighing powder. If you want more accurate throws, use the Hornady auto thrower. Much better than the Dillon, especially with extruded powders.

2nd, I have loaded many thousands of 223 rounds on a progressive press and never trimmed a single 223 case. Tumble, spray large batch of cases in the feeder with Hornady case lube and allow to dry. Decap resize and prime at stage 1, charge at stage 2 with hornady auto thrower, place the bullet between 2 and 3, seat at 4 and done. 1 toolhead.

I load 223 on a Hornady AP 5 stage press but only use 4, so it's the same as Dillon. I can post a video if needed.

As far as crimping, you tell us if your seater die is crimping. Good grief dude you should be able to tell by looking. Measure the OD at the case mouth with calipers if not.

 

[Rookie]

If you have crimped primer pockets thats a different lesson for a different day.

 

[Srikaleak]

If you have crimped primer pockets thats a different lesson for a different day.

Today is that day, how do I tell if primer pockets are crimped?

 

[Rookie]

Well you will know for certain when the new primers won't go in. Sometimes primer crimps are obvious to the eye, others not so much.

For crimped primers I use a universal decapper at stage 1 and no other dies. I remove and primer swage with a Dillon swager, then setup as stated before.

 

[jetsurgeon]

I swage on the 650........ Works just dandy!

Shop All - Swagers - Dillon XL650 - Swage It

swageit.com

 

[cast1]

Are you pulling the dies off and on between stage 1 and 2? Seems like a huge pita then just having 2 toolheads.


I found I get less run out floating my dies and clamping my tool head. .0005-.001 usually. I played with different set ups for the dies to see if the Shell plate deflection mattered based on how it was loaded. If I float and clamp it's minimal. If I don't, yes the brass is less concentric if the tool head is loaded with just say one sizing die in station one only.

I also try to make sure i have my shellplate as tight as I can get it and still rotate the head.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by float the dies and clamp the tool head?

 

[memilanuk]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by float the dies and clamp the tool head?

So... there is a train of thought in the reloading community, that it's somewhat difficult to guarantee that any given 7/8-14 threaded die, will screw into any given 7/8-14 threaded press, and have the hole in the middle (the part that actually sizes the brass) be properly 'square' with the press ram and shell holder.

On traditional single-stage presses, there are a couple common solutions. One, replace the spring metal clip that holds the shell holder in place with an O-ring that lets it move a bit more. Two, put an appropriately sized O-ring under the die lock ring, so that it 'floats' a bit. Basically it's snug against the top of the press, which is usually machined flat, and not being pulled one way or the other by the threads. That way, hopefully, when the case enters the die, the die can 'self-align' to the case as needed. Or you can just buy a Forster Co-Ax, and not worry about all that

On progressive presses, the problem with the shell plate is a little less - at least with Dillon machines, as the buttons that retain the case in the shell plate don't actually exert any sideways force. But the problem with the holes is exacerbated somewhat - if the odds of *one* hole being aligned properly are not great, then the odds of all *four* (or five) holes being perfectly co-planar, especially in a mass-produced factory/OEM tool head intended for loading 'blaster' ammo... are definitely not good. Especially if you have more force at one station (say, F/L sizing) than another (expander mandrel), which could result in the tool head 'tipping' due to the slop in the fit of the tool head to the frame.

So first off, there is a mod available thru UniqueTek, Whidden, etc. to drill, tap and install helicoil inserts in the pin holes of the tool head. Then replace the pins with the supplied allen head screws. Insert the tool head as per normal, thread in the allen head screws and snug them down - which will pull the tool head *up* against the lip of the frame, which is where it would get pushed anyway under normal operation - just now it will be held there, evenly, with no chance to tip/tilt.

Next, while you could use O-rings on each die mentioned above, the normal approach on a 550 or 650 is to drill a small 0.10" hole next to each 7/8-14 die hole, and insert a roll pin. Drill (or mill) a slightly oversized hole (or notch) in the locking die ring (this is where the aluminum Forster die rings come in handy). Slip the die ring over the pin, and hold it slightly off the tool head as you thread the die back thru both. Now, when you tighten the ring down, you'll be using the pin as a stop, rather than tightening against the face of the tool head like a jam nut. This arrangement allows each die considerable range of movement (aka 'wiggle room') in terms of allowing it to 'self-align'.

Basically you are taking the 'slop' away from the tool head, and putting it back to the dies.

 

[memilanuk]

@cast1 specifically I think some of the pics in this post, and that entire thread, would help answer your questions as well.