Night Vision Distance and resolution of night vision

[Nick301]

Hi, new member wanting to learn the limits of night vision.

I’m a good shooter but know nothing about night vision other than a few hours of Google. I want to know if night vision has the resolution and brightness to shoot field mice at 50 yards or possibly even farther. I want to do this at the maximum distance for fun and satisfaction. I have to look into the mouse population first, but I may be able to set up a baited area which would make this much easier as the property is mostly wooded. I’m thinking of a .22 or .17HMR for the rifle.

Thanks!

 

[Delta4-3]

I don't know about field mice. Its not the size, but they would about have to be on a hard surface like concrete to be visible even in daylight right? Ive never hunted them personally, but it doesn't take much concealment for a mouse to disappear. You could, however, use thermal to find them. Ive seen mice in thermals, but didn't attempt to engage them.

If you go off of proportions though, I'd say it is possible. People have been shot from over 1200 meters at night with clip on devices, so if you took the time to do the math that would probably let you know.

How much are you wanting to spend to kill mice? a crappy gen 1 device isn't going to let you find a mouse, unless maybe you have an illuminator that runs off of a bank of car batteries, or is hard wired to your house with an extension cord. I would be surprised if you could spot a mouse at 50 yards with anything short of $3,000 worth of gear...on the low side. Maybe if you are baiting them, so that you will know exactly where they will be, but you'll have to check your local game laws for that, seasons, regulations, distance from roadways required, etc.

 

[Nick301]

I don't know about field mice. Its not the size, but they would about have to be on a hard surface like concrete to be visible even in daylight right? Ive never hunted them personally, but it doesn't take much concealment for a mouse to disappear. You could, however, use thermal to find them. Ive seen mice in thermals, but didn't attempt to engage them.

If you go off of proportions though, I'd say it is possible. People have been shot from over 1200 meters at night with clip on devices, so if you took the time to do the math that would probably let you know.

How much are you wanting to spend to kill mice? a crappy gen 1 device isn't going to let you find a mouse, unless maybe you have an illuminator that runs off of a bank of car batteries, or is hard wired to your house with an extension cord. I would be surprised if you could spot a mouse at 50 yards with anything short of $3,000 worth of gear...on the low side. Maybe if you are baiting them, so that you will know exactly where they will be, but you'll have to check your local game laws for that, seasons, regulations, distance from roadways required, etc.

I'm not happy with the prices I'm seeing but it is what it is. I would much rather do this in daylight but time is limited and there is so much work to be done on the raw land that I wouldn't want to devote time for something like this when I should be working. Yeah, an open area with bait would be the best option if there are enough of them coming around, which is what I have to check for first.

OK, so something above gen 1. When you say illuminator, like an IR light shining on the bait area or providing light for the scope? I could do either one.

 

[DingDong]

You want thermal for this task. Good luck!

 

[Nick301]

You want thermal for this task. Good luck!

Thermal rifle scopes? Could you maybe tell me a little about it. Keep in mind I want distance, like at least 50 yards to keep it interesting.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I would get a cat that has built in night vision. Much cheaper

 

[Nick301]

I would get a cat that has built in night vision. Much cheaper

Hey....seriously trying to get some info here no matter how lame my reasons are.

This is remote property and I can't care for a cat. I catch plenty of mice in the traps but cats and traps have nothing to do with what I'm asking.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Well that's the neat thing about farm cats....you don't care for them. They take care of themselves by hunting your rodents..

as for nvgs and resolution a good gen 3 device should be able to discern a mouse size object at 50yds but closer the better. Magnification will be a must and as delta said the mouse would probably need to be in the open. Won't take much for them to disappear. You might consider feeding the shit out of them so they get bigger making an easier target....lmao

 

[Nick301]

Well that's the neat thing about farm cats....you don't care for them. They take care of themselves by hunting your rodents..

as for nvgs and resolution a good gen 3 device should be able to discern a mouse size object at 50yds but closer the better. Magnification will be a must and as delta said the mouse would probably need to be in the open. Won't take much for them to disappear. You might consider feeding the shit out of them so they get bigger making an easier target....lmao

I have had 2 stray cats show up at different times but the next week they were gone. There are lots of bobcats and coyotes which may be the reason.

I'm hoping the darkness and my distance away will keep them out in the open for a bit but I also want to get as far away as possible to take my skills to the limit. I wish the night vision wasn't the limiting factor but hopefully it will still be interesting.

Thanks to you and delta for the good information so far.

 

[DingDong]

Flir T70. Just read a few threads here.

 

[Nick301]

Flir T70. Just read a few threads here.

Thanks, I will look into that. Model numbers are really helpful for searching. Quick question, I'm seeing IR illuminators mentioned a lot. Do they light up what you are shooting at or just provide more light for the scope itself?

That sounds confusing. Do they have to reach to what you are shooting at or are they just a local light source to make the scope image brighter.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Hey nick,

I just posted a thread that goes into detail about thermals if you're interested in thermals. I do talk a little bit about nightvision and how it works vs thermals. the topic is here:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...vices/224459-thermal-imaging-2-questions.html

As far as you wanting to hunt mice with NV, im going to say... you're going to have an extremely hard time... thermals would make it easier... but.. you're going to have an extremely hard time.

Here are the pro's & con's:

NV pro:
1. if you have a laser light or IR light attached to said weapon, you can see with the NV and not with thermals. Keep in mind you're gonna have to zero that to a certain distance (try less than 50 yards). in essence, you can pretty much put that laser dot on the target = FTW. its stupid easy, makes me laugh every time I hunt taliban.
2. cheaper compared to thermals
3. more versatile uses with NV vs thermals

cons:
1. All you see is.... green. and you can see "shadowing". Just because it lets you see in the dark doesn't mean that you can see in all dark. There needs to be some type of light source and material to reflect said light source. so that makes it difficult at times (unless you're doing close in work and got a ir flood light).
2. quality. You want to settle for gen 3 minimum (there are gen 3+ / gen 4) out there and this is where it can get pricey. There is a sticky thread here about choosing NVS and they go into different models but PVS-14's should suit you just fine.

Thermal pros:
1. unlike NVS, detects thermal radiation emitted from stuffs. I say stuffs because all things emit thermal radiation (heat).
2. can detect signatures that NVS cannot. what i mean by this is say for example you placing your hand on a hardwood floor. leave it there for 5 seconds and with thermals you can see your handprint there for a little bit. Good for detecting animals who stay stationary for a second, poop, pee, etc. with NVS what you see is what you get. you didnt see it, too bad.

cons:
1. Cannot see through glass, water, metal. You can't even see through a wall of ceran wrap!
2. expensive. the t70 someone mentioned, retails for 15k. GG

Hope this posting helps.

 

[Nick301]

Hey nick,

I just posted a thread that goes into detail about thermals if you're interested in thermals. I do talk a little bit about nightvision and how it works vs thermals. the topic is here:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...vices/224459-thermal-imaging-2-questions.html

Thanks for posting all of the information and the link which I will check out. 3 or 4K will make me cry so it looks like thremal is out. This whole mice idea might not be worth it but coyotes could be fun.

Hey check out this rat shooting video I just found. Maybe the trick here is a closer range. I think it's a regular scope with a cheap camcorder with night setting and an IR illuminator.

Budget night vision ratting - YouTube

 

[JohnnyC]

It seems like less a problem of resolution as it is magnification. A PVS-14 will easily resolve things at 50 yards, the problem is that it is unmagnified. Even adding a 3x magnifier might not be enough to actually see mice in the first place, regardless of resolution. I bet a D-760 would have no problem resolving mice at 50 yards, but seeing them in the first place might be tough, thus the recommendations for thermal.

 

[Raven0369]

I recently bought the Armasight Nemesis 6+ ID 2nd gen riflescope. I received an email from Optics Planet for the 2013 Christmas specials with 10% off everything, free shipping and returns. So I was looking at there web site and I saw the Armasight Nemesis 6+ ID 2nd gen scope was on sale. Since I have a thing for nightvision, I looked further and saw the price was to low to show, so I added the scope to my cart to see the price. The scope was on special for $1459.00 plus an additional 10% and free shipping.
I bought the scope for $1304.00 and free shipping. The thing that intrigued me the most was the large front objective. I have a lot of experience with nightvision and I currently own six nightvision scopes. I have found that the larger the front objective the better the resolution and light gain. I would rather carry an extra pound or two for the increased range of the scope. After all what good is a small scope if you can not see what you need to see, when you want to see it, or need to see it before it see’s you?

When the scope arrived, I was impressed with the 80mm front objective. The scope is large for the newer nightvision. But from what I have scene the manufactures are trying to make the nightvision scopes small at a trade off in performance. This is not the case with the Armasight Nemesis 6+ ID 2nd gen. I had to try the scope in the daytime because I wanted to see how good it was. I turned on the scope with the day cover on and was impressed with the sharpness and clarity of the scope for a 2nd gen nightvision scope. This is the first riflescope I have scene with the crosshairs mounted behind the ITT. I was surprised to find a black duplex crosshair similar to a Leupold Vari X III crosshair. This feature is great, because the illumined reticules have always obscured the target and made precision shot placement extremely hard to do.

I mounted the Armasight Nemesis 6+ ID 2nd gen scope and a Frankenstein rifle I made.
It is an AR-15 with the following parts, Spikes Tactical Lower, CMMG lower parts, Geissele supper semi-automatic trigger, Magpul MOE rifle stock, Armalite buffer and spring, Aero Precision upper receiver, Olympic Arms stainless ultra match barrel 1 in 8 twist, Yankee Hill Machine quad rail and covers, PRI gas block flip-up front sight, Knights Armament USMC flip-up rear sight, Delton charging handle with Badger Ordnance tactical Latch, Magpul grip, Magpul trigger guard, Smith Enterprises Vortex flash suppressor. With the day scope, the gun shoots ¼ MOA.

While mounting the scope I had trouble with the large objective. With the scope day light cover on, the scope front objective was too big with the Yankee Hill Machine quad rail installed. I had a choice, one cut the day cover and risk damaging the scope in day light, or two cut a couple of the rails off the quad rail so the scope would fit with the cover on. I chose to cut the rails off the quad rail.


My first trip to the range was cold and windy. So I did not shoot, I just observed what the scope was capable of doing.
Here are my observations results form the range.

30% Moon 07 Dec 2013

No IR 200 yards Excellent, 300 yards Good 500 yards Fair
ELR Torch 300 yards Excellent, 500 yards Good
Dipol Laser 500 Yards Excellent, 600 yards Good

Armasight IR-850 Detachable long-range illuminator
Excellent out to 200 yards and no good beyond that.

Excellent equals, I could see a rabbit sized target.
Good equals, I could see a coyote sized target.
Fair equals, I could see a man sized target.

My next trip to the range was on 16 Dec 2013 with a full moon night, with the moon low in the sky and 100% cloud cover. The observation was only a little better than the 30% Moon night because of the low moon angle and 100% cloud cover. However, I was able to shoot the rifle with no wind. The Armasight Nemesis 6+ manual says the elevation and windage adjustment are ½ inch at 100 yards. However, I found them to be closer to ¼ inch at 100 yards. My first shot was on paper and I easily adjusted the scope to 1 ¼ inch high at 100 yards.
The Armasight Nemesis 6+ manual says the scope reticle is 1 yard at 100 yards but I found it to be about 7 inches from one side of the duplex to the other, or about 3 ½ inches to the center of the reticle. Once I had the scope sighted in, I shot at a clean target to see what kind of group I could get. I shot a ¼ inch group.
I was able to shoot out to 500 yards with the correct hold over.

My next trip to the range was on 30 Dec 2013. It was a no moon night with clear skies and no wind. This is the night I knew I was going to find out what the scope was really capable of performing. I first shot a group on clean paper to see if the scope held it’s zero. And it did with a ¼ inch group 1 ¼ high at l00 yards.



I had just purchased a Luna LN-ELIR 3 Laser Illuminator and was eager to test it along with the Armasight Nemesis 6+ ID 2nd scope.

With (NO) IR, I could shoot rabbits out to 100 yards, coyotes out to 200 yards, and man sized targets out to 300 yards.
With the ELR Torch, I could shoot rabbits out to 200 yards, coyotes at 300 yards and man sized targets at 500 yards.
With the Luna IR laser, I could shoot rabbits out to 600 yards and see man sized targets out to a mile.
The Dipol IR laser had the same results as the Luna IR laser.

The scope was clear enough with the Luna LN-ELIR 3 Laser Illuminator to see my bullet marks on a white 12X12 inch steal plate at 500 yards.

With the right IR illuminator the Nemesis 6+ ID works as well as a 3rd gen scope in all lighting. The signal to noise ratio on this scope must be near 20, with around 54 lp/mm.

I would highly recommend this scope!

Raven

 

[ZombieSlayer]

Maybe look into digital night vision that attaches to your regular day scope. I've been using one for a month or so now mostly for rabbits and foxes at night. This one cost me about $650 au and was one of the first limited production run to be made by a company here in Australia. Basically uses a battery pack (3x18650) to power a IR camera and screen. A separate IR torch for illumintation. So far I've been able to see critters out to 200ish yards up to 8-10x dependant on scope. Winding up the mag further looses image brightness but I can see 250-300 yards with 2 torches and 15-16x mag fairly well. Couple images to give you an idea. Keep I mind these are just taken with my phone of the screen but give you an idea.

Bobcat @ about 80-90 yards with IR torch on high

horse at 30-40 with IR torch on 30%

And the setup looks something like this with the battery pack on the butt stock off side in a elastic holder.

Could be just the sort of thing you want for ratting.

 

[Nick301]

Could be just the sort of thing you want for ratting.

I was very impressed with the view quality on the YouTube video that I posted and think this is the route I should at least try first. Not knowing that most NV scopes didn't have high magnification makes my 50 yard number too far off base as JohnnyC mentioned. I'm guessing the distance in the video was 30 to 50' and I should be able to stretch that out a little farther judging on the quality of the video and the size of a mouse. I guess what really matters is to be far enough away so the mice don't feel threatened.

I found a lot more night ratting videos and all were homemade setups. Your setup is the first premade that I have seen so thanks for that lead.

ETA: I like the B/W image much more than the green also.

 

[ZombieSlayer]

Yep, there are a heap of DIY versions on youtube and commercially available options as well. Check out "RolaidsBench" He's got a few hours of viewing and different types of setups he's made. If I had a dedicated night rifle for ratting or such I'd go a completely digital version like his V3.0 maybe with goggles instead of a screen but I tend to do more day shooting than night and don't want to have to stuff around resighting in completely digital stuff each time I change guns so what I've got works best for me on 4 or so different rifles that I use it on. There are a couple versions in England similar as well but can't remember the brands right now but think they are used a fair bit by "Team Wild TV" on youtube.

 

[Nick301]

Thanks for including things to search for. I can eventually stumble across the good stuff but it takes a lot of extra time. I'm starting out with a clean slate, no rifles or scopes, so I could easily build a dedicated for this. If I find that I have to move around instead of being fixed maybe I could invest the money saved into a handheld thermal if they can be had for a reasonable price.

 

[Nick301]

I like this guy, RolaidsBench. Do you know what country he is in? I'm watching the first video which is a test on different IR lights. It's funny, I work in the fiber optic industry and we use some 850nm optics and I find myself briefly looking in them to see if they are transmitting. The higher wavelengths and lasers can't be seen so I don't look into those.

 

[Delta4-3]

Digital has low enough resolution that I think mice would be out of the question. Digital is progressing quickly, but in my opinion, which is just that, is that it is not quite there yet. I think it will be great in 3-5 years though. For larger targets it is great if you have enough illumination.

 

[Raven0369]

The Armasight Nemesis 6+ ID 2nd gen would do it at 100 yards with the Armasight IR illuminator.
A lot of money just to shoot mice. But Who am I to judge. I just use a good 22 lr. and good flashlight to shoot mice.

 

[ZombieSlayer]

No idea where he is. I think 50 yards is doable with digital. Will pretty much come back to you scope quality and to crank the mag up your going to need a good ir source. If I get a chance next weekend I'll see if I can set up something at 50 yards and see what I can pick up in the way of small targets. You do need ao or side focus for it. I can tell you it illuminates frogs eyes at 60 yards easily but haven't played much attention to them or zoomed in to see how it looks. Just noticed them scanning for foxes by some dams.

 

[Nick301]

No idea where he is. I think 50 yards is doable with digital. Will pretty much come back to you scope quality and to crank the mag up your going to need a good ir source. If I get a chance next weekend I'll see if I can set up something at 50 yards and see what I can pick up in the way of small targets. You do need ao or side focus for it. I can tell you it illuminates frogs eyes at 60 yards easily but haven't played much attention to them or zoomed in to see how it looks. Just noticed them scanning for foxes by some dams.

Thank you.....I watched all of his vids and he is definitely in the US judging by things he was saying. I know a lot more now from searching around and 50 yards may be pushing it but only because of the size of a mouse which is OK. What I'm looking for is to be far enough away not to spook them and at the same time push my shooting ability to the limit and I'm pretty sure digital can cover that. I just signed up at nightvisionforumuk this morning and there looks to be a lot of information there. I'm also seriously considering a pellet rifle now.

 

[ZombieSlayer]

Had a play with my setup. Will easily do what you require. Yard is only 50 yards long so couldn't stretch out but can easily see mortar joints in brick fence and individual leaves at that distance. Get a dedicated pcp for it.

 

[Nick301]

Had a play with my setup. Will easily do what you require. Yard is only 50 yards long so couldn't stretch out but can easily see mortar joints in brick fence and individual leaves at that distance. Get a dedicated pcp for it.

I appreciate you taking the time to look into that for me. If I get an air rifle it will definitely be pcp. The only thing that is putting me off is the recharging. Overkill, but what do you think about a .22lr using subsonic?

 

[ZombieSlayer]

You should be able to get a manual pump for a pcp for a couple hundred so don't need the scuba gear. Either will do just thinking the shrouded air rifles would be the go without the added expense of a can or stuffing around with multiple types of ammo. My air rifle is co2. Not powerful for 50 yards. Can rats and mice even see 50 yards away ? My experience with them has been they don't give a shit unless your close and moving and I doubt there is a genuine requirement to be 50 yards out. Like most critters I would think movement or lights being they are generally nocturnal is the thing to avoid.

If your not wandering around and just picking them off from a single location the swfa 10x might be the go or a 3-12 or something about that. With an attachment. Or the v 3 like rolands dedicated fixed digital setup looks the goods being you can design your own reticle perfectly matched to your trajectory which would be handy.