Can you tell us what the 2020 Official Rifle of the PRS is yet?
I heard next year it's going to be a Kel Tec!!
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I heard next year it's going to be a Kel Tec!!
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Unless you are shooting MY rifle, you are not allowed to win.
Me too, Ill do the one day match tx precision matches hosts twice a year for 125 plus a shared hotel room but that still isnt an easy thing to do even with all the money I dump into the hobby. I wont do a two day for twice that amount, its just not worth it to me. But then again thats probably why my desires wont ever be catered to, because Im not their market.honestly though i think what's keeping the crowds out of PRS is match fee $$$. even after dropping more (ok, way more) than a few thou on my stuff, i still cringe at paying $100 - $300 to shoot a match.
Just because other sports do it does not mean it's a good idea.In my mind the weight should be limited even in open, it's limited in other shooting sports, you have weight limits even in F Class Open
These limits have a logical reason as to why they exist, because without them your targets end up beat to shit or full of holes. I'm not convinced yet that there's a logical reason to actually restrict rifle weight beyond, "I don't like heavy rifles so they should be banned."We have speed limits, caliber limits, etc
The rules are already well defined and everyone understands that there isn't a weight limit.It's a defined set of rules so everyone understands.
This is supposed to be a practical/tactical rifles series, not a give it all to me upfront like F Class or Benchrest
Correction: you'll see more loopholes exploited, and more rules created to close those loopholes. Innovation cannot exist when you limit how people can innovate with arbitrary restrictions.You'll see more innovation with the rules in place than without.
The same can be said about having arbitrary rules that serve no purpose other than, "Because we said so." I'd argue having a big list of rules people need to adhere to is more discouraging to a new shooter than anything else. There are a number of different shooting sports that seem like a lot of fun but I've never bothered with because the rulebook weighs about 20 pounds. USPSA and IDPA are the biggest ones, where there are limits on what guns belong in what division and seemingly a dozen different divisions, plus within the division you have to worry about the power factor of your ammunition. None of that is fun to anybody besides pedants who spend too much time worrying that someone else might have a slight advantage because their gun is different. It just discourages people because they don't necessarily know if their gun will fit into whatever arbitrary requirements are given.Remember you want to grow and add to the sport, in these cases perceptions matter, having no limits ruins the perception for a lot of people who want things defined up front.
Other people find it more fun to shoot a heavy rifle because they can hit more targets with it, and hitting targets is fun. You would find it decidedly not fun if a minimum weight restriction was implemented. The only people who think arbitrary restrictions are fun are the people who aren't affected by adding said restrictions.They want shit handed to them and consider it fair to do so, rather than enter an event blind. Which to me is 10x more fun, especially having come off a CD match last month where the stages are totally blind. Doing it all on the clock, having to hold gear in hand, it's a lot more fun and the sense of accomplishment is bigger
You're getting a pretty good discount towards purchases at a number of different companies (those "Official X Sponsor of the X Series" companies). Along with that you're getting a shirt and some other small items for free.What are you actually paying for? The MD does the match, the series takes your money and keeps your score on a website, but outside of that and raking in money with, Official X Sponsor of the X Series, they do nothing for you in return.
Do it then. If it were that simple you'd have no reason not to because it would cost pennies and could potentially increase revenue related to the site if it attracted new users.I can build a webpage on here for pennies and manage all your scores for free... it's simple, I can even give you a better profile, higher views and more exposure as an individual should you choose it, but instead, you want to pay people who do nothing for you.
From the perspective of a new participant in PRS, but not a person who is new to shooting sports. Divisions, classes, etc. unnecessarily complicate any sport. One reason for my interest in PRS is the relatively few regulations. We are all aware that no matter how many restrictions are place on a class, there will always be some degree of an equipment race or gaming involved. Selecting some arbitrary number of match participations to recognize a person as a pro or amateur provides no value. If a shooter is in a match rich environment, that shooter can complete four matches in one or two months. To suggest those four matches in that time frame have significantly increased a shooter's skill level relative to a shooter who participates in four matches and practices over four months, doesn't seem reasonable. If a person is in a sport to win, then damn well learn to win. Let's not play coy, the intent of creating classifications has no other purpose than to create an opportunity to be dominant within that classification.
But this is not a video game. Live rounds here. We all shoot the same targets. No way to make it easier for the inexperienced. Your scores improve (or not), that is your reward. When you finally start shooting in the 50’s, that’s your level up. Then 60’s, etc. The ones who need more should stay on the couch. We don’t need them.I am definitely new to the shooting competitions, but if the goal is to grow the sport or hobby you only need to at video games to see the model. Simplify for new users with lots of easily achievable rewards and up leveling. Progressive challenges and competition unlock progressive rewards as individuals move up and require more investment in time and resources to continue to progress.
This is not new, and not created by video games but they have mastered it. Phone, console, computer all the same model, hook them, grow them, monetize them.
There are ways to make it easier, more time, more points for first round hits, different target sizes.But this is not a video game. Live rounds here. We all shoot the same targets. No way to make it easier for the inexperienced. Your scores improve (or not), that is your reward. When you finally start shooting in the 50’s, that’s your level up. Then 60’s, etc. The ones who need more should stay on the couch. We don’t need them.
So your reasoning for a weight limit boils down to, "Because I don't like heavy guns and I know better than you."Wheeled bench rest guns on the line, give me a mobile cart and an extension to touch an obstacle and watch.
Limits matter the fact you don’t see it is your problem - every SPORT has rules and limits and they are rarely arbitrary they are designed to create a level field so you can compare apples to apples and not a guy with more money ruling the day
Your pretzel logic is not how any sport operates
Pretty sure I have at least 10 years more experience doing this and hosting the longest continuous running match of this kind
What match out there has been going on longer than the SHC again ? What started all this SH at Rifles Only
My point wasn't that it was impossible to make a better system with better visibility for the website. If anybody googles PRS right now all they get is a bunch of results for Paul Reed Smith guitars so obviously there's an issue.No interest in hosting a series none at all is why I didn’t build the page, I actually wrote an alternate years ago that became part of the basis for the Missouri MoST series of events, sure things change and morph but that said if I had an interest it could be done easily and better. I can go online and scrub your scores for free, they are posted, you can monitor every match if needed
And how many divisions did I propose vs how many were revealed recently ?
I think my rules are better and my divisions make sense , refined to say
Open - any rifle any caliber 24LBS limit
Limited - 18LBS limit - 26” barrel with factory Ammo only
Amateur
Pro
End of story
Want to fix 30 LB rifles? More positional and 10 round, 10 position stages. If your rifle weight is making you time out because you can't move fast enough, the problem fixes itself.
You still don't get it
Who cares what one guy does, this is about different folks, there are so many shooters out there who won't shoot competitions because you guys don't get it.
You still don't get it
Who cares what one guy does, this is about different folks, there are so many shooters out there who won't shoot competitions because you guys don't get it.
I'm trying to get a new guy to go shoot a match and he's reluctant because of all the gear "requirements". New shooter was going to buy a tripod. "Doesn't know what to do".
I just told him to get out there with dope and a gamechanger and the more experienced shooters will make sure he gets pointed in the right direction.
All the gear in the world doesn't make shooting any better. I agree that the carts are ridiculous. Ruck your 5 bags, tripod, spotter and 30lb rifle if that's what you want to run in open. However, production and tac needs to be more realistic with tripod, weight and other bag limitations if they are to be seen as "practical precision".
What suggestions do you have?
Factory Ammo Only
that is it,
Factory ammo is the winner for the Limited Class,
I bet if the NRL tried something like this, it would really take off.
A guy with a "Stock Production" RPR came in 29th at the PRS finale. He absolutely crushed other shooters with much more expensive gear.
Do I know you?Pro and am. A and b. Skill classification is really the only way. The “production” idea is way to flawed. A barrel is a consumable to everybody in the sport. Having to use a factory barrel is MORE expensive when it’s shot out. Rules like this never work. I have a friend who is trying to decide whether or not to run production next year His rpr barrel is toast. In order to run production he will have to spend more for a factory barrel. His scope is too expensive, so he is buying one with a lower msrp to be class legal. Not money saving. Who cares about classifications. Just shoot. Your score is what it is. If you want to compare yourself with others with similar equipment or skill, you are welcome to do it
This sounds like they are talking about me. So this was my first year competing, I have a bone stock RPR but I blew my wad on a second hand S&B that could grow with me in this sport. So because of the $2k scope limit I had to run open class, which isn't a big deal but if I was running production I could have won the Barrel Maker Classic production class, which would have allowed me to grab a discounted action to help build a custom rig. I tossed around the idea of running production, but ultimately caught a lot of shit for "gunning for a trophy" from guys that told me "if you want to compete I have to pay!" and "if you're not first, you're last!"He's downgrading equipment to meet division requirements ?
Certainly sounds like what was intended when the division was created ??![]()
The fact that you put "stock production" in quotes makes me think you know better but the rest of your post suggests you don't.
Might be the nicest guy in the world but to imply that he's what's possible with factory offerings is fucking LAUGHABLE.
Guy is sponsored by Ruger. Started the season with a 26 inch barrel. RPR was not available with a 26 at that time.
Is that the same rifle you could buy at Bass Pro Shop? Maybe.
Was that rifle cherrypicked out of the assembly shop at Ruger? Maybe.
Did that rifle receive any extra attention before it left the shop? Maybe.
RPR rifles are hammers I'll give them that. Getting those A-tips to shoot well with a super long throated factory chamber..![]()
I'm new here but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents. I've been gaming rule books in the automotive endurance racing world for 10 years.
The absolute #1 question when a new rule is proposed has to be: Is it enforceable? If it isn't enforced, then eventually it will be ignored by all but the new comers.
Are we going to commit to a mandatory "tech inspection" at every match? Otherwise, everyone in tac class is going to be running 185 juggs. Or if limited division was limited to factory ammo, everyone would be pulling bullets from factory ammo, adjusting the powder charge, seating depth, etc.
I'm sure there are guys out there hoping no one sticks a bore scope down their "factory" RPR barrel to discover it's a 5R, throated for VLD's, or whatever.
Just curious, but why have a separate class for 308?I was there at the beginning of the PRS, I thought what a great idea, then I saw how it changed everybody and everything, the organizations charge WAY TOO MUCH to join, USPSA is 35 bucks a year, and actually has a national championship, and a world champion shot in IPSC. The lack of qualified ROs is a easy fix, staff gets to shoot the match for free on staff day, works great for IDPA/USPSA. Rule enforcement is non existent, and will always be, the reason why is the RO staff doesn’t have a vested interest in it, as for divisions there should only be 2, 308 and open, both should have a strict weight limit, 16 pounds for rifle and optic, with a heavy duty match DQ for those who bust it, as for production, gotta pay to play, I get the need to bring new people in but let’s face enforcement is almost impossible.
Just out of curiosity, why the separate division for .308?I was there at the beginning of the PRS, I thought what a great idea, then I saw how it changed everybody and everything, the organizations charge WAY TOO MUCH to join, USPSA is 35 bucks a year, and actually has a national championship, and a world champion shot in IPSC. The lack of qualified ROs is a easy fix, staff gets to shoot the match for free on staff day, works great for IDPA/USPSA. Rule enforcement is non existent, and will always be, the reason why is the RO staff doesn’t have a vested interest in it, as for divisions there should only be 2, 308 and open, both should have a strict weight limit, 16 pounds for rifle and optic, with a heavy duty match DQ for those who bust it, as for production, gotta pay to play, I get the need to bring new people in but let’s face enforcement is almost impossible.
Just curious, but why have a separate class for 308?
Just out of curiosity, why the separate division for .308?
And how many divisions did I propose vs how many were revealed recently ?
I think my rules are better and my divisions make sense , refined to say
Open - any rifle any caliber 24LBS limit
Limited - 18LBS limit - 26” barrel with factory Ammo only
Amateur
Pro
End of story
because your at a giant disadvantage shooting 308 compared to a 6 or 6.5 mm cartridge
Maybe its just me but anybody doing that much cheating to win a title in a hobby sport would defeat the purpose of competing in the first place. If there were 10s of thousands or more dollars on the line then of course you could expect such schemes. The stigma lumped onto a known cheater in a pond so small would ruin reputations permanently. As Frank mentioned the limitations wouldn't apply to the Open Division.
I would not increase the “stock” or “production” weight limit, just because the “AI” is so heavy. They weigh as much as many of the guns people are bitching about and cost as much if not more than many customs.In my mind the weight should be limited even in open, it's limited in other shooting sports, you have weight limits even in F Class Open
I would say 22LBS for Open and 18LBS for Limited, why because a Stock AI is close to 18LBS.
We have speed limits, caliber limits, etc, a weight limit in my mind would be without the scope, the scope is irrelevant to the situation.
It's a defined set of rules so everyone understands. 22lBS for a practical rifle sport is not limiting.
Open has to have guidelines as much as anything, rules matter. You'll see more innovation with the rules in place than without.
Remember you want to grow and add to the sport, in these cases perceptions matter, having no limits ruins the perception for a lot of people who want things defined up front.
The Hornady Precision Hunter Steel Challenge and Nightforce ELR Steel CHallange matches are geared exactly that. As far as incorporating that into a PRS or NRL event would be logistically impossible.What does anyone think about possibly a lower round count per stage and per match for "limited class"?
A couple of the obstacles I have seen for getting fellow shooters into the sport are:
1. Ammo expense per match for them shooting their factory ammo is too much for them.
2. They have a very capable rifle/scope but their factory rifle is an internal box mag holding 4 or 5 rounds.
These problems may be impossible and too limiting to try to address, but I thought I would bring it up. I have taken a new shooters to the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton, NM and got them hooked on precision shooting. That match is appealing to new shooters partially because it is 60 rounds max, 6 rounds per stage, and longer time limits.