Rifle Scopes DMR Optic

[CTigers19]

Hello,

New here, but looking for advice on an optic for an LMT MWS .308. I’m interested in hearing your personal experiences with these optics, thoughts on how they compare, and other suggestions to look at. Throw anything else at me too, I’m all ears.

I’m leaning towards FFP, something in the 3-18 range, preferably MRAD based reticle, in the sub 2k range. I would like an optic that is long range capable, while still functioning well low power

I’ve been looking at:
Trijicon tenmile
Eotech Vudu
Vortex Razor HD Gen 2
Leupold mk5HD
US optics B17
Let me know what you guys think!

 

[wigwamitus]

About 18 months ago, I did a lot of pairing down ... and now only have two types of rifles

Bolt guns (7.62x51 rem700, criterion 20/22 inch barrels, KRG bravo)
Stoner Rifles (Mk12 556(18) and Mk11-ish 762(20) )

So, since I only have two types of rifles, I only need two types of scopes, so I made up this scope list around Feb 2020

And surprisingly, I wouldn't change it much.

Basically I use 3-9x on the stoner rifles and 3-15x on the bolt guns.

==

I value light weight, short scopes, low price and ability to hit what I'm aiming at night or day, rain or shine, hot or cold.

==

For bolt guns I really like the NX8 2.5-20x T3 mostly due to the 2.5x on the bottom, that gives more FOV, even thought NV or Thermal clipons. And at night almost all your FOV comes from looking thru the scope (since it is dark).

==
For stoner rifles, I want smaller, lighter and more FOV if I can get it. My two purchases this year were the L&S mk4 2.5-8x TMR ... and I'll admit some sentiment was a factor in that one, but I have enjoyed using it, I've been testing it with a new German thermal clipon lately, the Andres Tig-IR and its working GREAT !.
And just got Trijicon Credo 2-10x MRAD-Tree, its an FFP. Some have said they can't see the reticle, fortunately, I can, so I think it will work for me.

So on a stoner, I also want to be able to pull up quick for snap shots while on the move. And that means I need a reticle I can see quickly. So before I got this credo I also looked at

NX8 1-8x
Credo 1-8x
March 1-10x
VO g3 1-10x

I ruled out the, all out based on price, as the credo 2-10x was still several hundred lower, but it was a close call with the credo 1-8x.

I currently have RMR offset dots on the mk12s and that serves to meet the requirement for a quick snap shot, but I'd like to repurpose those over to G-19 pistols. So still might move towards the 1-8x type scope for the stoner rifles eventually.

==
So "long distance". Well for me, for the record, I shoot out to 900yds with the 30 cal rifles and 750yds with the 556 rifles. I do shoot further, but when I'm shooting "for the record" those are the distances I max out at. And 10x magnification on top is plenty. For shooting the bolt guns out to 1200yds not for the record, the 15x top end requirement is fine. But I don't see needing more than 10x on a stoner rifle for the way I use them and FOV is more important, i.e. lower low power magnification.

==
But if I was using a stoner rifle like a bolt gun, then a 3-18x would make sense, in which case, if I was buying today, I'd get the NX8 2.5-20x with some reticle of choice as that gives you a little more on the low end (2.5 vs 3) and a little more on the high end (20x vs 18x) and the street price is well under $2k for most reticle choices.
My second choice would be the L&S mk6 3-18x with some reticle of choice, they are shortest and lightest in class. A new one will probably come in right around $2k street price. But I see used ones going by fairly often and I've had great experience with L&S service. They completely rebuilt my Mk6 3-18x H59 no-Illum into a 3-18x T3 with Illum for $1200 and replaced the M5B2 turrets with the M5C3 turrets as well (and you definitely want the M5C3 turrets, the B2 turrets suque !!! )

But again, first choice NX8 2.5-20x with no hesitation.

 

[CTigers19]

About 18 months ago, I did a lot of pairing down ... and now only have two types of rifles

Bolt guns (7.62x51 rem700, criterion 20/22 inch barrels, KRG bravo)
Stoner Rifles (Mk12 556(18) and Mk11-ish 762(20) )

So, since I only have two types of rifles, I only need two types of scopes, so I made up this scope list around Feb 2020

And surprisingly, I wouldn't change it much.

Basically I use 3-9x on the stoner rifles and 3-15x on the bolt guns.

==

I value light weight, short scopes, low price and ability to hit what I'm aiming at night or day, rain or shine, hot or cold.

==

For bolt guns I really like the NX8 2.5-20x T3 mostly due to the 2.5x on the bottom, that gives more FOV, even thought NV or Thermal clipons. And at night almost all your FOV comes from looking thru the scope (since it is dark).

==
For stoner rifles, I want smaller, lighter and more FOV if I can get it. My two purchases this year were the L&S mk4 2.5-8x TMR ... and I'll admit some sentiment was a factor in that one, but I have enjoyed using it, I've been testing it with a new German thermal clipon lately, the Andres Tig-IR and its working GREAT !.
And just got Trijicon Credo 2-10x MRAD-Tree, its an FFP. Some have said they can't see the reticle, fortunately, I can, so I think it will work for me.

So on a stoner, I also want to be able to pull up quick for snap shots while on the move. And that means I need a reticle I can see quickly. So before I got this credo I also looked at

NX8 1-8x
Credo 1-8x
March 1-10x
VO g3 1-10x

I ruled out the, all out based on price, as the credo 2-10x was still several hundred lower, but it was a close call with the credo 1-8x.

I currently have RMR offset dots on the mk12s and that serves to meet the requirement for a quick snap shot, but I'd like to repurpose those over to G-19 pistols. So still might move towards the 1-8x type scope for the stoner rifles eventually.

==
So "long distance". Well for me, for the record, I shoot out to 900yds with the 30 cal rifles and 750yds with the 556 rifles. I do shoot further, but when I'm shooting "for the record" those are the distances I max out at. And 10x magnification on top is plenty. For shooting the bolt guns out to 1200yds not for the record, the 15x top end requirement is fine. But I don't see needing more than 10x on a stoner rifle for the way I use them and FOV is more important, i.e. lower low power magnification.

==
But if I was using a stoner rifle like a bolt gun, then a 3-18x would make sense, in which case, if I was buying today, I'd get the NX8 2.5-20x with some reticle of choice as that gives you a little more on the low end (2.5 vs 3) and a little more on the high end (20x vs 18x) and the street price is well under $2k for most reticle choices.
My second choice would be the L&S mk6 3-18x with some reticle of choice, they are shortest and lightest in class. A new one will probably come in right around $2k street price. But I see used ones going by fairly often and I've had great experience with L&S service. They completely rebuilt my Mk6 3-18x H59 no-Illum into a 3-18x T3 with Illum for $1200 and replaced the M5B2 turrets with the M5C3 turrets as well (and you definitely want the M5C3 turrets, the B2 turrets suque !!! )

But again, first choice NX8 2.5-20x with no hesitation.

Thank you for taking the time for a very detailed response. Looking at nightforce’s website, the exit pupil on the nx8 is about half that of the nxs 2.5-10.
Do you find that it is harder to make snap shots with it? I know I won’t be getting a true 1x and LPVO style eyebox with this style optic, but I would like it to be serviceable for close up shooting. (Thinking more acog style - not as forgiving, but useable)

I’ve been considering an offset dot to help in this situation, and with passive aiming up close under nods. I’ll have to come back and ask you some clip on questions when it becomes time for that

 

[wigwamitus]

Yeah "long distance" with FFP fancy reticle and "Snap Shots" like with SFP/Duplex type reticle are different ends of the spectrum. If you want to optimize "patrol rifle" use case, then I would NOT go with an FFP ... though some of the newer DFP reticles are attempting to do both ... and many of the newer 1-8x and 1-10x have these sort of reticles.

If you want both, compare the credo 1-8x and the NX8 1-8x. Those are at least lower cost than the March or VO g3.

 

[davsco]

i have and like/love the vortex razor hd 3-18 ffp on my two dmr/precision gas guns (valk and 308).

 

[CTigers19]

Yeah "long distance" with FFP fancy reticle and "Snap Shots" like with SFP/Duplex type reticle are different ends of the spectrum. If you want to optimize "patrol rifle" use case, then I would NOT go with an FFP ... though some of the newer DFP reticles are attempting to do both ... and many of the newer 1-8x and 1-10x have these sort of reticles.

If you want both, compare the credo 1-8x and the NX8 1-8x. Those are at least lower cost than the March or VO g3.

I like the primary arms ACSS, and Eotech Vudu LPVO’s where they seem to accomplish FFP, useable low magnification, and useable for holds at higher magnification. My thought process was a scope that would behave similarly to one of those at ~3x, and offer me higher magnification that I seem to be wanting.

I will check out the credo/nx8. I have a razor HD 1-6 that really fits that SFP snapshot roll. On this particular rifle, I don’t see myself taking many shots under 75yds, where that 2-3x minimum seems to be just about right.

thoughts on the razor 1-10?

 

[CTigers19]

i have and like/love the vortex razor hd 3-18 ffp on my two dmr/precision gas guns (valk and 308).

Awesome, thanks for the reply. Have you found the eye box at 3x useable if you aren’t benchtop shooting?

 

[SirDrinksAlot]

I've been very happy with the Burris XTRIII in 3.3-18 with SCR2. I have not found myself feeling handicapped in any of the NRL22 matches I shoot.

Biggest downside is that the SCR2 reticle is quite fine at min mag, and if you need illumination it's a no go.

Big plusses for me is the parallax can go down to 25 yards, the fine reticle with floating center never obscure my target.

That being said, if I wasn't going to use it for competition I'd much prefer the thicker MSR reticle I've got in my Steiner. I definitely feel hindered when shooting in competitions with the MSR reticle in comparison though.

So I would say it directly depends on your intended use.

 

[adamjma]

And just got Trijicon Credo 2-10x MRAD-Tree, its an FFP. Some have said they can't see the reticle, fortunately, I can, so I think it will work for me.

Please post your impressions on the Credo 2-10 - it ticks a lot of boxes for me and I'm seriously looking at it for a similar setup to you.

 

[sboone]

Please post your impressions on the Credo 2-10 - it ticks a lot of boxes for me and I'm seriously looking at it for a similar setup to you.

If youre looking at the 2-10 credo, you should also take a good look at the primary arms 2.5-10 with a griffin mil reticle. I personally have the 2-10, a buddy has the 2.5-10.

The short version is that the trijicon credo 2-10 is very durable, but doesn't have locking turrets and I have bumped them and have the turret turn. I have found this out by managing to be an idiot and dump the rifle onto the ground on multiple occasions, it has never lost internal zero after setting the stop even with some of the falls and dings and bangs its gone through. It does have a zero stop and it is fairly easy to adjust. The visibility of the reticle is a problem for some, not for others.


The primary arms 2.5-10 has great turrets and is all around a great value scope packing alot of features into a $650 scope. I have the 6-24 version of it and love it on a bolt gun. The GLx series of scopes is very good. The 2.5-10 is a bit shorter, an ounce lighter, and has better turrets and easier to see reticle than the trijicon. We haven't used the 2.5-10 enough to comment on the abuse it can take, but the 6-24 I have has held up fairly well.

 

[LRRPF52]

First thing you need to ensure with a gas gun that has such a heavy mass BCG is reliability/durability. So far, most of the optics discussed here surprisingly pass that very high bar, which is a good sign. When the AR-10 BCG slams back into battery every shot, it makes life extremely hard on optics.

The Vortex Gen III 1-10x is really an ideal DMR optic, if you understand DMR the way I do.

Anytime I see really high magnification, larger optics being discussed in a DMR context, I know that my definition of DMR is not on the same level as the really heavy rifles and larger optics assumption.

The main trade-off with the Vortex Gen III 1-10x is on the long range end, where you don’t have a parallax adjustment.
I just got mine last year, so it’s premature for me to make any conclusions on how I feel about that.
Once I have sufficient trigger time under it, I’ll cover down on it with a review.
So far, I’ve never felt a need for that on any of the higher performance LPVOs prior to the 1-10x factor options just hitting the market in the last few years.

I’ve used a lot of different 1-4x, 1-5x, 1-6x, and 1-8x LPVOs over the past 15 years when 1-4s started hitting the market.

For the 7.62 NATO MWS, the first thing that always pops into my mind is the weight, and how to tame it.

If this is a rifle you want to be able to pick up and move with, then consider that as a factor. It sounds like that’s what you’re looking for when snap shots are mentioned.

The Gen II RZR and NX8 1-8 come to mind for that. Those are 2 of my favorite LPVOs right now. I like the reticle options from Vortex better since you can compensate for wind holds more easily with the tree.

I like the compactness of the NX8 1-8 the best of most of them right now, without having put hands on the new March 1-10 Mini.

 

[HorribleAim]

I just put the Credo 2-10 on my 20" AR. With 77gr. OTMs this setup is magic at distance.

 

[Evlshnngns]

About 18 months ago, I did a lot of pairing down ... and now only have two types of rifles

Bolt guns (7.62x51 rem700, criterion 20/22 inch barrels, KRG bravo)
Stoner Rifles (Mk12 556(18) and Mk11-ish 762(20) )

So, since I only have two types of rifles, I only need two types of scopes, so I made up this scope list around Feb 2020

And surprisingly, I wouldn't change it much.

Basically I use 3-9x on the stoner rifles and 3-15x on the bolt guns.

==

I value light weight, short scopes, low price and ability to hit what I'm aiming at night or day, rain or shine, hot or cold.

==

For bolt guns I really like the NX8 2.5-20x T3 mostly due to the 2.5x on the bottom, that gives more FOV, even thought NV or Thermal clipons. And at night almost all your FOV comes from looking thru the scope (since it is dark).

==
For stoner rifles, I want smaller, lighter and more FOV if I can get it. My two purchases this year were the L&S mk4 2.5-8x TMR ... and I'll admit some sentiment was a factor in that one, but I have enjoyed using it, I've been testing it with a new German thermal clipon lately, the Andres Tig-IR and its working GREAT !.
And just got Trijicon Credo 2-10x MRAD-Tree, its an FFP. Some have said they can't see the reticle, fortunately, I can, so I think it will work for me.

So on a stoner, I also want to be able to pull up quick for snap shots while on the move. And that means I need a reticle I can see quickly. So before I got this credo I also looked at

NX8 1-8x
Credo 1-8x
March 1-10x
VO g3 1-10x

I ruled out the, all out based on price, as the credo 2-10x was still several hundred lower, but it was a close call with the credo 1-8x.

I currently have RMR offset dots on the mk12s and that serves to meet the requirement for a quick snap shot, but I'd like to repurpose those over to G-19 pistols. So still might move towards the 1-8x type scope for the stoner rifles eventually.

==
So "long distance". Well for me, for the record, I shoot out to 900yds with the 30 cal rifles and 750yds with the 556 rifles. I do shoot further, but when I'm shooting "for the record" those are the distances I max out at. And 10x magnification on top is plenty. For shooting the bolt guns out to 1200yds not for the record, the 15x top end requirement is fine. But I don't see needing more than 10x on a stoner rifle for the way I use them and FOV is more important, i.e. lower low power magnification.

==
But if I was using a stoner rifle like a bolt gun, then a 3-18x would make sense, in which case, if I was buying today, I'd get the NX8 2.5-20x with some reticle of choice as that gives you a little more on the low end (2.5 vs 3) and a little more on the high end (20x vs 18x) and the street price is well under $2k for most reticle choices.
My second choice would be the L&S mk6 3-18x with some reticle of choice, they are shortest and lightest in class. A new one will probably come in right around $2k street price. But I see used ones going by fairly often and I've had great experience with L&S service. They completely rebuilt my Mk6 3-18x H59 no-Illum into a 3-18x T3 with Illum for $1200 and replaced the M5B2 turrets with the M5C3 turrets as well (and you definitely want the M5C3 turrets, the B2 turrets suque !!! )

But again, first choice NX8 2.5-20x with no hesitation.

Excellent write up. Instead of minimum mag, everyone should write down FOV at 100yds.

My dmrII goes down to 3x, I didn't read the FOV. I get the scope and it tunnels below 4 or 5x. Piece of Chit. Should have got a 4.5x with a higher zoom.

 

[HorribleAim]

Got a bit more range time with the Credo 2-10x. Some more detail on my recommendation (it's really a great scope):

- Superior glass vs. Accupower 1-8x LPVO and both of my Vortex Viper PST Gen IIs. It's not quite ACOG clear but is noticeably better than the Accupower and PST.
- Turret tracking is spot on.
- The reticle is thin at low power, but I find the side and bottom lines to be good reference points to get you on target. Not an issue for me.
- Illumination is bright enough, but not as bright as my Accupower 1-8.
- I like the capped windage turret (personal preference)
- Clicks are audible, but elevation and windage have a slightly different feel.
- Durable so far. For whatever reason, maybe subconscious, it seems more durable to me than the Accupower and PSTs.

This thing definitely made its way to the top of my favorite optics. For years I went with either 1-6 and 1-8 LPVOs, or 3-15+ higher mag optics for precision work. Trijicon Credo or any other brand, the 2-10x is in a sweet spot for a DMR optic.

 

[Glassaholic]

Excellent write up. Instead of minimum mag, everyone should write down FOV at 100yds.

Been preaching that for a number of years now, it is an often overlooked feature.

My dmrII goes down to 3x, I didn't read the FOV. I get the scope and it tunnels below 4 or 5x. Piece of Chit. Should have got a 4.5x with a higher zoom.

The DMR series scopes from Bushnell are notorious for having poor FOV. Many 4x (at the bottom) scopes have better FOV and even some 4.5x scopes. An example is the Burris XTR II 4-20x50, an often overlooked scope (at really good prices these days) that has greater FOV at 4x than the DMR does at 3.5x.

OP, if you can save a few more pennies I'd also recommend the Kahles K318i which can be had used for around $2300-$2400 in the Hide classifieds, it is a step above all these scopes IMO. If you can do without illumination and like thin reticles the next would be the Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 which has enormous FOV. The NF NX8 2.5-20x50 has horrendous edge distortion and finicky eyebox, DOF and parallax, but if this doesn't bother you it too has enormous FOV (albeit a bit blurry), for these reasons I think the NF ATACR 4-16 is a better solution from NF. The Leupy Mark 5 3.6-18x44 is another compelling option if you like the reticles (I am not a fan of busy mosquito net reticles like HORUS so for me I am limited with what Leupold currently offers and the TMR doesn't excite me very much).

If you want to save a little money, the next tier down would be the Bushnell LRHSi/LRTSi series scopes, and if you don't need illumination the new GAP LRHS2 should be quite compelling, the Vortex PST II 3-15x44 has very good glass and is a very nice overall package for the price.

Another criteria you mention is - performing well at low power. Much of this is going to be dependent on reticle and/or illumination, for this reason I rule out HORUS style reticles as I find them unusable/messy at low power. One of the best reticles for low power illumination is the G2H in the Bushnell LRHS series, the circle of death and reticle thickness really help which has made this my favorite DMR optic with a RDS mounted above the elevation turret (I use a low mount for the main scope so the RDS is not too high, this allows for excellent long range and close quarters work). If the reticle has decent enough illumination you can also consider occluded eye aiming with the objective cover closed.

 

[steve123]

I like the Athlon 2-12x42 for medium sized targets. It's got a .3 mil sized center dot in the mil version. It's fast and the reticle is easily seen on low magnification. The quality is very high for the price, it has a zero stop, lot's of elevation travel, has distinct feeling clicks, locking turrets, focuses close at 10Y, is short, and has decent glass.

The Athlon ETR 3-18 is another option if you want a standard line thickness with excellent reticles.

 

[TheGerman]

Before going down the goat rope of options, for an actual DM rifle employed that way, you need to consider a few factors over others. The things that would be important to me are:

- Eye relief as you'll be shooting in weird ass positions off tripods, barricades, underneath shit, etc. Also no DM rifle should have a fixed stock due to this.

- Thinner reticle that doesn't have shit all over the place. Easier PID and target tracking. I hate thick reticles that basically block out what Im aiming at.

- Optic needs to be able to take a beating

- Weight as well as the weight of the overall system (i.e. stop using scope rings and bases that weigh as much as the scope)

- Good to great optical clarity; this comes into play even more so when using a clip on (so does objective size but try not to get some huge heavy objective optic either)

Everything else is preference.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Hello,

New here, but looking for advice on an optic for an LMT MWS .308. I’m interested in hearing your personal experiences with these optics, thoughts on how they compare, and other suggestions to look at. Throw anything else at me too, I’m all ears.

I’m leaning towards FFP, something in the 3-18 range, preferably MRAD based reticle, in the sub 2k range. I would like an optic that is long range capable, while still functioning well low power

I’ve been looking at:
Trijicon tenmile
Eotech Vudu
Vortex Razor HD Gen 2
Leupold mk5HD
US optics B17
Let me know what you guys think!

Might be hard to find but I would also look for a used Bushnell LRHSi , LRHS(2) , LRTSi 3-12 & 4.5-18 Excellent scope for your particular rifle. If you run a mini red dot on an offset it takes care of the close range stuff.

The 4.5-18 Is longer than I would prefer but the reticle makes up for it (G2H, G3). Very fast optic and solid internals. Very reliable.

 

[BoulderE89]

As someone who is also considering what optic to get for a DMR with my tax return (currently running an Athlon ares btr 2.5-15) would it be worth moving up to either a 1-10 razor or a 4-20 type of optic? I just don't know if I want to commit to an optic with a minimum mag of 4x, but I could always piggy back a red dot to make up for it too I guess. What do you guys think?

 

[Glassaholic]

May not work for everyone but I am really liking this setup. Bushnell LRHSi 4.5-18x44, Spuhr SCP-3001 and Leupold Delta Point Pro, keep in mind I do not shoot competitions but try to glean off those who do and setups that work. Need more time with this to determine if it's going to be better than a 45° offset...