Do I have to quit reloading for the same reason I started?

[Morgan321]

In the picture below, the group labeled "3" is from the OCW I did a couple weeks ago. The charge 0.4gr above and below it was a nearly identical group and barely any POI change so I went with it. I loaded some more and shot it last weekend and got 3 shot groups around 1.5moa. I loaded some more today and shot 5 round groups(the two groups you see on the paper bag) that are over 2moa.

I shot the ocw prone, both other times I shot from a bench. Both times using the same sandbags, weather was identical, and all the components came from the same package as the OCW rounds. I cleaned the rifle before shooting today, but I shot a few rounds to get it warm and dirty before the groups.

Then to top it all off last thing today I shot a group from my go-to factory match ammo and it grouped right under 1moa like it always does. ie. my shooting hasn't changed and the gun hasn't changed.

Why this huge change with my own ammo? I've used the same components since day 1. Even the brass is all from a single lot of factory match ammo and it was all once fired in my gun before I reloaded it. Primers, bullets, and powder are all from the same container.

I asked after last week and some said there is that big of a difference between prone and bench shooting, but I don't believe that - I shoot the factory match ammo the same regardless of my shooting position.

I tried reloading to get a lot of consistent ammo, the OCW worked great but I can't duplicate the performance I got on that day. What gives?

 

[280nosler]

Did you clean your barrel? Have you tightened any screws on your scope mount, were they seated to the same COAL? I would assume you are using the same brass, bullet, primer and powder. Was that the first group of the day? Were your previous range days deep into strings? There are a number of different varients, not including weather to consider.

My advise. Put the gun up, pull the bullets, inspect your reloading setup and go back to your notes. Take a day, then go back and work the load up again. some times if I try too hard, I'll miss something and my whole shooting day is, well for lack of a better word, shot.

 

[Morgan321]

I cleaned the barrel prior to shooting today, but I shot a few rounds to get it fouled before shooting those groups. No change to the gun otherwise. Components literally from the same box as the OCW rounds. Same load, same coal, same everything. I shot a group with the same load but longer coal and it grouped the exact same as the two groups pictured. DA was about 500' higher today(5c hotter), but all groups were at 100yd so that doesn't make anywhere near enough difference.

The initial OCW had 55.4, 55.8, and 56.2gr of RL-19 grouping nearly identical but the groups spread apart fast above 56.2gr. Could 5c hotter make enough of a burn rate difference to make the rounds perform like the hotter loads from the OCW that didn't do well? +/- 0.4gr with identical performance is a pretty wide range isn't it? Should I try a lower charge next time if it is hotter out?

I've shot nearly 70 rounds on the OCW and followup tests to confirm. The OCW results were amazing but both times out since then have been worthless. I only got 200 rounds worth of supplies, by the time I get this figured out I'll have to start over with whatever different bullet/powder I can get at that time!

The crux of my frustration is the factory match ammo(40 year old m72 lake city match) is always 1-1.25 moa regardless of weather, range, barrel dirtyness, shooting position, etc. All I wanted was to duplicate that because that ammo is hard to find in any decent quantity.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Is this a gas gun? If it's a bolt action, you might want to look at your action screws and your bedding. BB

 

[Morgan321]

It's all tight. I shot a normal 1moa group at the end of the day today with my good factory match ammo so I can't see how there's anything wrong with me or the gun.

 

[RyeDaddy]

And then, some days are like that. What kind of scale did you use to measure powder?

I had a months long episode like this, I'd find a load that worked well and then load more and go back to the range the next week and the groups were shitty. Eventually I chased it down to a Lee scale that although it was a beam never measured the same on different days. Threw it in the trash, bought a Redding model 2 and an old RCBS 1010 and my loads shoot the same week in week out. Just a thought...

Another way to eliminate possible issues is to take apart some of the factory ammo then reload it with your press just to see if something's wrong with your reloading setup. Pull the bullets and pour the powder(do this one at a time so you're not measuring powder, just pouring exact same charge right back in the case) remove your decapping pin, run the primed brass through the sizer then pour the same powder back in and seat to same length as the factory ammo. Take the ones you "remade" and some originals from same lot and shoot side by side. If handloaded rounds shoot different something's wrong with your reloading equipment, not the rifle or your load development.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I am assuming you are using a 30-06, as I don't think you can get 56gr of Re19 in a 308. SO...my first question is why are you using Re19? These powders are very temp sensitive. I no longer use temp sensitive powders. I used to use Re22 in a 300Mag and a 30BooBoo and I chased my tail from season to season. My node range for a 190gr bullet and H4350 is over 1.5gr in my 30-06, not a problem anyway cause the powder isn't temp sensitive. I load at the top of the node at 55.5gr for the velocity and I have that luxury using a stable powder.

The factory match ammo is possibly IMR4064 or 4895...maybe. I doubt it is Re19. If the brass is old which it most definitely is, you need to anneal it after the first firing. Brass does harden some with age and would guess what you may be seeing is a neck tension problem. Annealing will fix it, and if it isn't a neck problem annealing certainly won't hurt. Try annealing your cases first before you get too frustrated. I had a similar problem with my LC68 brass. Annealing fixed the problem.

 

[Morgan321]

Yes 30-06. RL19 because it was available and said good for 30-06 on the label.

I checked my notes, it was 6c hotter than when I did the ocw. Could that small temp change really make so big of a difference?

The brass is all from the same bulk can of m72 ammo. Could brass vary that much from the same container? When I did the ocw the groups were very consistent, you could clearly see them tighten up and then spread out as well as the poi shift. Also the m72 ammo I have left is dead consistent. I can't imagine its the brass but I'm new to reloading so what do I know!

I have small amounts of 4064 and 4895 available locally. Should I start over with a different powder?

Is there any rule of thumb for powder weight based on temperature? I'd like to load some lighter charges and duplicate the ocw results in a hotter day to verify it is the powder causing the change.

Edit: googling info about temp sensitivity is almost a waste of time, its easy to find conflicting info and different communities seem to have different opinions. In the end all I want is a round as consistent as m72 -I can shoot it year-round and get 1moa always regardless of any variables.

 

[wildfowler]

I have experienced issues like you were describing whereby I find a great load but am unable to duplicate it on the next trip to the range.

I spoke with the fellow named Scott Parker who tunes balance beam powder scales. I think he is very well-respected around here.

I chose not to immediately order a scale from Scott after speaking with him at length regarding my powder weighing process.

I first wanted to try really focusing my method of dispensing the powder into the scale consistently every time before I ordered a new scale. This is a slight exaggeration but prior to speaking with Scott I'll admit that I was guilty of dumping powder in the pan is quick as possible to measure my charges during my reloading process.

I don't think I could possibly explain clearly what Scott told me I was doing wrong but now that I have cleaned up my act, I can even see slight changes in the needle read out with just a few additional specks of fine-grained ball powder.

You may have your powder measuring system perfectly under control but it did help me to more carefully examine what I was doing.

 

[damoncali]

Is the lug bottoming out in the bedding or otherwise binding? I would bet on it being a rifle problem more than an ammo problem. It's not normal to see that kind of variation in accuracy, assuming your first loads were not statistical flukes.

 

[P7id10t]

A temp difference of ~11ºF won't matter.
To me the fact that your shooting with your reloads is not as good as your factory ammo shooting indicates it's in your technique.
Are you checking your runout?
Also, are you using a balance beam scale or a digital scale? When I'm loading for precision (I have a RCBS powdermaster combo), I precharge a pan with the powdermaster and then balance it out with my Ohaus balance beam.

 

[Morgan321]

Scale is some cheap electronic thing, same as the one sold on eno's website. I weigh a few bullets and they always show 168.0 or 168.2 grains. I know that doesn't mean much but it's at least somewhat consistent. I know it's not that great of a scale but it worked fine for the ocw rounds I loaded!

The big thing is the excellent results I got with the ocw rounds two weeks prior, nothing changed since then. And after getting these results I shot the old standby ammo and it performed normally, verifying(in my mind at least) that nothing is wrong with the gun or me.

But I loaded the ammo the exact same way with components from the same boxes so it should've been consistent also.

Its pretty frustrating, all I want is a quantity of consistent ammo around 1moa so I can get useful practice rounds in. Ammo variability has me chasing my tail because I can't get large quantities of consistent Ammo. That hornady match ammo is $1.2 from cmp, I'm tempted to order cases of that and forget loading my own!

 

[ShtrRdy]

Wow man! That would be frustrating. One thing I've noticed during my reloading is sometimes static elec can effect the scale, either digital or beam scale. This can result in powder charges which are different than what you think they should be.

Have you tried loading the same pieces of brass that you got the good results from with the same powder, bullets, and primers?

 

[oldfatguy]

Scale is some cheap electronic thing, same as the one sold on eno's website. I weigh a few bullets and they always show 168.0 or 168.2 grains. I know that doesn't mean much but it's at least somewhat consistent. I know it's not that great of a scale but it worked fine for the ocw rounds I loaded!

Those cheap electronic scales wake up a whole new world every time they are powered up. Sometimes good, sometimes not. They work fine for weight sorting - as long as they are re-zeroed often and weight sorting is of little value anyway for most shooters.

From all that you have posted, it is not the rifle or shooter. Time to go to a balance beam scale to measure your powder charges.

OFG

 

[Aimsmall55]

If you want a VERY accurate scale that you can't find anywhere for the $ check out the A&D FX120i. Here's the link : FX-120I - Cambridge Environmental Products Inc. Scientific Distribution Network - Laboratory Supplies, Scientfic Equipment

 

[Bradu]

Those cheap electronic scales wake up a whole new world every time they are powered up. Sometimes good, sometimes not. They work fine for weight sorting - as long as they are re-zeroed often and weight sorting is of little value anyway for most shooters.

From all that you have posted, it is not the rifle or shooter. Time to go to a balance beam scale to measure your powder charges.

OFG

I never did like digital scales for trickling in powder, sometimes it didn't want to register the change in weight unless you took the pan off and set it back on. I like my tuned beam scale, it moves with just one kernal of Varget.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Digital scale? That is most likely your problem, especially if it is a cheap one. I have available to me a brand new high end Ohaus lab scale, set up on a marble scale table, in a climate controlled area. This is the only digital scale I trust, and any of similar quality.
Get a balance beam of good quality first, they run on gravity. Every digital scale I ever used that cost less than a grand, COULD NOT BE TRUSTED.

I would still anneal my brass. Your powder is probably not the problem, the consistency of the amount you are using is very suspect.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Cheap digital scale?

Here's another way to check it: measure 40.0 grains of powder on your scale then dump it into a Ziploc bag and seal it so it doesn't lose/absorb moisture and change the weight. Put the scale away however you normally do, come back in 2 or 3 days and dump the powder out of the bag back onto the scale and see what it says.

 

[Queequeg]

I'll lay odds that if you were to pull a random sample of those old match rounds, you'd find the weights of each powder charge would vary a half a grain! The were loaded volumetrically rather than to the 10th of a grain as we often try to obtain.

Is it the M72 brass is what is being reloaded with the RL-19? It may be excessively resized and then over work hardened, necissitating annealing in order to obtain equivalent neck tension to match the LC match ammo used as a control.

While the charge weight of powder has been identified, I'd like to see what the primer type, bullet, case prep and COAL. The scale may very well be the problem and the powder itself may also not be optimal for this load. I love 4064, H4350, H380 and Varget in my 30-06 and there are many others that work well too.

 

[Morgan321]

If it were a scale issue then how did I get such good results on the ocw two weeks ago? And like I said I weigh a bulletin everytime I turn it on, they always weigh out as 168.0 or 168.2 so it seems to be repeatable.

The brass is all once fired in the same gun and neck sized only.

The way I see it I have little choice but to start over. The load I came up with on the first ocw was 55.8 grains. Different books list max in the 58-61gr range. I have shot up to 59.4 with no pressure signs. Around 58gr the case is filled up so much the bullet just touches the powder. What load range should I try and should I make the coal longer to not compress the powder if I go for the heavier load range? 30-06/RL19/168amax.

 

[scudzuki]

The balance AimSmall linked to is fantastic.
Zero drift, fast, weighs single kernels of every extruded rifle powder I use. Magnetic Force Restoration load cell, far superior to conventional strain gage digital scales.
That price is insulting to me, as I bought mine 6 weeks ago at the best price I could find at that time, $600.
No regrets, though, it was a good buy at $600.

Joe

 

[targaflorio]

Based on the way all the groups pattern one o'clock to seven o'clock I would say trigger control may be a factor. How's your follow through? Are you able to call your shots? Do you do lots of dry firing? Do you have a picture of your factory ammo group?
Your confidence in the load may also show up on paper. Can you get access to a chronograph? That data might help. Good luck!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I just checked the link. That is probably a very good scale. It comes from a lab supply, that is a big plus for sure. It still needs to be mounted on a VERY sturdy tabltop that has been made dead level first, I reccomend marble. It needs to be in a climate controlled environment, even our high dollar lab scale will drift a wee bit if the temp is not stable in the lab. It needs to stay covered and away from other power sources and magnetic fields, and drafts. Our lab scale has a sliding glass door to eliminate drafts.

All that being said, it would be a lot easier and cheaper to just buy a good balance beam. An electronic scale is not a bit faster than a balance beam used by someone with experience.

 

[damoncali]

An electronic scale is not a bit faster than a balance beam used by someone with experience.

It's not a bit faster, it's a lot faster.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

It's not a bit faster, it's a lot faster.

Please explain how. By the time I reach for a bullet to seat, the beam is stable. Evidently you have never used a beam much. I have used both over the last 31 years, and I use a PROPER digital in a lab quite often over the last 26 years. If you can't load as fast with a beam then you have a technique problem, not a technology problem.

 

[damoncali]

I've used a beam scale for 20 years (though I don't much any more becausse it's too slow). In no way is it faster than my digital (which is nothing special), which will give you a weight in half a second or so. Just trying to throw some balance (ha!) out there - there is a strong anti-digital attitude on the 'net for some reason. I believe it's unwarranted. Your milage may vary.

 

[Morgan321]

Follow through? I can call them sometime at longer distances but rarely can at only 100yd. No dry firing. No pictures handy, but they do not go low left to high right like these groups did. This weekend they were almost flat and horizontally spread, but there is no pattern of how groups with the m72 ammo looks and I've shot many hundreds of rounds of it.

I don't have a chronometer but would love to use one for this!

How's your follow through? Are you able to call your shots? Do you do lots of dry firing? Do you have a picture of your factory ammo group?

 

[oldfatguy]

I've used a beam scale for 20 years (though I don't much any more becausse it's too slow). In no way is it faster than my digital (which is nothing special), which will give you a weight in half a second or so. Just trying to throw some balance (ha!) out there - there is a strong anti-digital attitude on the 'net for some reason. I believe it's unwarranted. Your milage may vary.

Like in many areas, you get what you pay for in scales. "Nothing special" is a matter of definition, and my anti-digital attitude is based on the cheap scales, not the real lab grade scales that are by no means cheap.

OFG

 

[Twoboxer]

The OP said his OCW had 3 groups, same POI, all good groups, with charges 0.8gr apart.

Maybe it's just me, but talking about his scale as the issue seems to be a longshot

If it were me, I'd be carefully making 9 more rounds - 3 at the OCW charge and 3 each @ +/-0.4gr, repeating that portion of the OCW. Go back to the 2 minutes in between shots and the round-robin sequence. My guess is barrel temp (my crochety 50 year-old 30-06 gets VERY hot and then it becomes VERY unhappy) and/or fouling level difference, or neck tension.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I agree, that diagnosing someone's problem with a keyboard is spotty at best. Just trying to give him the likely culprits.

The likelihood of wind blowing a bullet "into" a group has the same statistics as blowing one "out"of a group. I would try it all one more time before I changed anything.
And I would anneal the cases. There is a lot of speculation on "old" brass age hardening. I can't say one way or another but I have heard of enough problems with 40+year old brass to err on the side of caution with my prized brass. There ain't likely to ever be any more LC M72 brass, a wise man will take care of what he has like it is teh last on the planet, cause it may well be.

 

[Morgan321]

OK, I'm going to attempt to duplicate my ocw results and go from there. Ill be out of bullets and powder by the time I figure this out and have to start all over.

My barrel is very thin, I often shoot it until its too hot touch. The m72 ammo is 1moa always, hot cold or whatever.

Does anybody on here shoot at quantico? I'd love to have somebody with more skill than me shoot back-to-back with the same ammo to get a baseline on my ability and a second opinion on the gun.

 

[7magsavage]

The only time I have had something like this happen was when my Savage barrel became loose. Not sure that I caught what rifle you are shooting, but it would be worth the simple check to make sure the barrel is tight.

My next advise would be to just walk away from things for a while and you will eventually find the problem. It's just these types of issues that drive folks like us nearly insane. I couldn't figure out why the more I shot this rifle of mine that I kept shooting worse and worse. I was paying super close attention to all of the details but still my accuracy was going downhill. It wasn't until I was in the woods hunting that year and stood up to take a leak that I found my problem. I grabbed my rifle by the barrel to hand it to my son so he could hold it and keep it out of the dirt and the damn barrel just spun right in my hand.

 

[Morgan321]

I changed batteries in the scale(bullets still weigh the same, doesn't seem to have changed anything) just to be safe. Loading manuals list max load as 58-61. I've shot up to 59.4 with no pressure signs. I'm starting over, going to do 5 shot groups in 0.5 increments from 58.5 up to 61 unless anybody has a better suggestion?

So here is the m72 group. Shot at the end of the ocw day at the top of this thread. Proves in my mind nothing changed with me or the gun. M72 has grouped like this since I got the gun and never changed regardless of barrel temperature/cleanliness, weather, etc. orange stickers are 1 inch in all pictures.

 

[rsplante]

If you want a VERY accurate scale that you can't find anywhere for the $ check out the A&D FX120i. Here's the link : FX-120I - Cambridge Environmental Products Inc. Scientific Distribution Network - Laboratory Supplies, Scientfic Equipment

And if you want an ultimately accurate scale, you have a small window of opportunity. Sartorius GD503-NTEP Class II legal for trade Carat Scale Satorius stopped making these in May of this year. This place apparently still has some (as of a minute ago) but they must be getting low as they stopped offering free shipping. I weigh Varget to a single kernel. It is accurate to 0.005gn. (Varget kernel ~ .020-.025gn ) Sartorius Magnetic Scale Is Fast, Precise within AccurateShooter.com I was looking for a Prometheus, yeah-good luck, and found this article. It might be sour grapes, but I think I actually prefer this scale. From the pictures, the Prometheus looks like it takes 3-4 times the real estate and I don't really have the room on my loading bench. Since I am limited by the size of an individual kernel of Varget, I cannot measure any more accurately anyway.

 

[rsplante]

If it were a scale issue then how did I get such good results on the ocw two weeks ago? And like I said I weigh a bulletin everytime I turn it on, they always weigh out as 168.0 or 168.2 so it seems to be repeatable.

The brass is all once fired in the same gun and neck sized only.

The way I see it I have little choice but to start over. The load I came up with on the first ocw was 55.8 grains. Different books list max in the 58-61gr range. I have shot up to 59.4 with no pressure signs. Around 58gr the case is filled up so much the bullet just touches the powder. What load range should I try and should I make the coal longer to not compress the powder if I go for the heavier load range? 30-06/RL19/168amax.

When you are trying to shoot bug-holes, there is literally no detail that is too small for consideration. EVERYTHING has to be the SAME. Even things you never considered. In response to being accused of being OCD about some cleaning method, I once responded, "Bwahahahahahaha! OCD, OCD? I weigh my charges on a Sartorious GD503 Magnetic Force Restoration scale to a single kernel of Varget. I trim the Meplats on my 77gn SMK bullets and then point them. Then I sort them by Ogive to Base length in 0.001" lots. I coat them with Boron-Nitride. I skim the necks on my brass, trim the flash-hole, normalize the primer pockets, chamfer and debur the necks, and sort them in 0.1gn lots. I weigh the finished rounds to check for under or over loading them. I correct concentricity to .001" or better. I run ladder tests over my Oehler 35P Proof Chronograph for both charge, and seating depth. I took a perfectly good LaRue 5.56 OBR and added David Tubbs Precision AR-15 Carrier Weight System, an Enidine Hydraulic buffer, and a Magpul PRS Stock, then I hung an 8-32x56 NightForce NXS w/ZS on it using a LaRue mount. Obsessive Compulsive, What's that? I'm F'n Anal Retentive!"

Since then, I have updated my bullet measurements to actual bearing length by getting a bullet comparator from David Tubb that attaches to my dial indicator so that I can measure ogive-to-boattail length. I just got on a waiting list for Sebastian Lambang's latest creation, a Joy-Pod (at least 6 month wait, but it is still in R&D). Part of the reason EVERYTHING has to be the same is that beyond the external ballistics and the nut behind the trigger, is the consideration of what is happening to the barrel. I have read that it not only flexes up and down, but also in a spiral pattern due to its resisting the momentum of the bullet that wants to go straight while the rifling wants it to spin. What matters is where the last inch or so of the barrel is pointing as the bullet exits. Since you cannot control that, one way to achieve consistency is to attempt to have the bullet exit at EXACTLY the same point in time with every force exerted on the barrel being EXACTLY the same in the HOPES that the pill is sent on it's way the same way each time. THAT is why no detail is too small to control.

 

[dave300]

Went thru the exact same thing and a friend of mine asked if I checked the action screws? Oh no, not me, I always make certain to torque them, always!!!!!
Yep, Mr always torques his action screws found that they were only a touch more than hand tight and after the embarrassment wore off and a tightening, she was back to shooting group.

Is this a gas gun? If it's a bolt action, you might want to look at your action screws and your bedding. BB

 

[Morgan321]

So I reshot the four best ocw loads again today, only change was a bipod instead of a sandbag in front. I'm tired if carrying the sandbag around! And groups were 5 or 6 rounds instead of 3.

In the picture the 56.6 group has two shots off to the right. Those were the first two of the day on the cold barrel. After those two the groups were very consistent. Still larger than the first picture in this thread, but those were only 3 round groups that I haven't been able to duplicate.

The poi shift was consistent with the first ocw and with the colder weather a slightly hotter load seems best. Cold weather on the way, so I'm going to load the rest of this ammo on the higher end of the range around 56-56.5gr and be done with it.

All this ammo has been loaded with a lee loader! The brass wasn't cleaned or prepped in any way either. Any guesstimates on how much improvement clean brass and a proper press will get me?

Forgot to mention, the groups are tightening back up as I shot more after the cleaning. I don't think I'll clean the barrel again, I feel that was the biggest issue.

And the 3 round m72 standard is there too, right around 1moa like it always is!

 

[Queequeg]

Please forgive me if I misunderstood your previous posts but am I to understand that you loaded all these rounds using a Lee Loader?

I think Mr. Lee's loader was brilliant and I have a couple of them myself. I've never used them but since they were given to me, I keep them for the same reason I keep the thousands of books that litter my modest, cluttered home! I like them!

That said, I definitely feel the inconsistent groupings you saw are directly attributable to the use of the Lee loader. It's a great tool for very utilitarian reloading but in no way is it thought of as a accuracy enhancer.

 

[Morgan321]

Please forgive me if I misunderstood your previous posts but am I to understand that you loaded all these rounds using a Lee Loader?

You understand correctly. I didn't mention it before because obviously everybody would have jumped right to it as "the problem". I wanted to see what results I could get from it because it is ultra portable. It matches the best factory ammo I can find for just under 1/2 the cost. Given that I haven't even cleaned the brass and have a cheap electronic scale I think the results are pretty good.

I think I may have reached the limit of what I can do with this gun. I'm hoping to come across someone who is much more skilled than me to shoot it to get an idea of whether the biggest limiting factor is me or the rifle. Given that the gun is a $400 dick's special with a pencil thin barrel tossed into a nice stock I think it does OK.

 

[Morgan321]

Is it the M72 brass is what is being reloaded with the RL-19?

I'd like to see what the primer type, bullet, case prep and COAL. The scale may very well be the problem and the powder itself may also not be optimal for this load. I love 4064, H4350, H380 and Varget in my 30-06

Queequeg: I must have missed your post above. Yes, all m72 brass from the same bulk packaging once fired in this gun. Standard federal primers(not match or magnum), 168gr Amax, no case prep other than a quick brush in/out of the neck. 3.27inch length except for the most recent post I made them 3.35 long. Obviously measured to the bullet tip.

I chose those components only because they were available locally. I am about to buy 1000 rounds worth of supplies, considering 175smk and imr 4007ssc because they're both available from the same place. They also have 178amax and 208 hornady match. I think 208gr is a bit too heavy for the 4007ssc? From reading online it seems I can get 1k yards from the 175smk so it's good enough and I kinda like the lighter loads since the gun is so light.

 

[Queequeg]

I've never used 4007 so I can't comment on it for the 30-06 or anything else. From the Hodgdon release on the new SSC variant, it sounds great for lighter bullets and powder dispensers that typically throw inconsistently with extruded powders.

I meant no insult about the Lee loader. I have numerous Lee tools; case prep, dies, etc., as well as the two Lee loaders I mentioned previously. I use the former often.

To my thinking, the Lee loader is the source of your inaccuracy issues.

A good press, carbide dies (They last longer-you still have to lube the cases) and a dependable scale will allow consistent load weights, bullet seating, and cartridge overall length. Proper case prep such as trimming, chamfering, primer swage removal from the mil brass, cleaning, etc., will yield even better results. You get out what you put into it.

Given the fact that you only revealed the use of the Lee Loader so long after opening this thread, the short answer to your OP question isn't whether you should quit loading for accuracy; rather you haven't yet seriously begun!

 

[MrMarty51]

should I make the coal longer to not compress the powder if I go for the heavier load range? 30-06/RL19/168amax.

Should`nt Your reloads be made to the chamber, with the bolt closed, unless this is a semi automatic rifle, then the COAL needs to be met, other wise, fit Your rounds to the chamber, with the bullit just touching the lands.

 

[Morgan321]

To my thinking, the Lee loader is the source of your inaccuracy issues.

Proper case prep ...... will yield even better results.

.....answer to your OP question isn't whether you should quit loading for accuracy; rather you haven't yet seriously begun!

Queequeg: thanks for reading and comprehending, that's a rarity on the Internet! I agree on the lee loader, I wanted to try something without investing lots of time/money and I think it worked out OK. I already had calipers, a cheap electronic scale, etc. so reloading only cost me $35 for the lee loader and about 5 minutes to figure it out.

The m72 brass is not crimped and is very heavy, 15-20gr heavier than all other brass I have. It works very nicely and is durable. This load is very light so I hope it will last a long time. I have a lot of crimped LC brass also, is it comparable to the m72 other than the crimp?

Any bullet suggestions between the three I mentioned? The 208gr is out given the powder, so it comes down to 178amax or 175smk. I need 1k Yds so I think that is the lightest I should go. These 168amax loaded so light(2450fps based on required elevation from 100-1000yd) aren't accurate at 1k Yds. I didn't go higher on the load because I only started with 200 rd worth of supplies and have used around 60 learning. I want to have ammo left to shoot! I already have the actual elevation required out to 600yd for this load also so I'm done for this round.

 

[RTK]

I've never used 4007 so I can't comment on it for the 30-06 or anything else. From the Hodgdon release on the new SSC variant, it sounds great for lighter bullets and powder dispensers that typically throw inconsistently with extruded powders.

I meant no insult about the Lee loader. I have numerous Lee tools; case prep, dies, etc., as well as the two Lee loaders I mentioned previously. I use the former often.

To my thinking, the Lee loader is the source of your inaccuracy issues.

A good press, carbide dies (They last longer-you still have to lube the cases) and a dependable scale will allow consistent load weights, bullet seating, and cartridge overall length. Proper case prep such as trimming, chamfering, primer swage removal from the mil brass, cleaning, etc., will yield even better results. You get out what you put into it.

Given the fact that you only revealed the use of the Lee Loader so long after opening this thread, the short answer to your OP question isn't whether you should quit loading for accuracy; rather you haven't yet seriously begun!

I think you hit the nail on the head queequeg.
Although I have never used one of those Lee's, I have seen them being used and think you could obtain all around better consistency with a good press and dies, hitting the unit with a hammer doesn't seem the best to me but it is an easy cheap way to start reloading. Oh don't forget a decent scale.