Do I NEED a new trigger

[JustG]

My current trigger breaks nicely with no creep. I get no jump when going through dry fires. I am not sure what the pull is on it. Is a new trigger going to benefit me at all?

I have shot more accurate with this rifle but not on a consistent basis. The only factory part left on is the trigger but never felt it was holding me back.

Thank you for the time. I'm still half asleep so I hope I am making sense.

 

[rduckwor]

If you are comfortable with the present trigger and can reliably produce groups that are satisfactory to you, then you are fine.

 

[JustG]

Well I had some flyers that were way out there on my first target. I just kinda looked through the scope and said wtf.

I did end up ordering a new timney trigger when I got back. Maybe its just an inconsistent trigger?

 

[shovelstrokeed]

Maybe not a new trigger but a lesson in trigger pull or sight alignment based on the horizontal dispersion in the pictured group.

 

[Angmo]

Do you consistently place the same part of your finger to the same spot on the trigger? Start with between the fist joint and tip of finger and pulling straight back. Some sideways pull can get you groups like this, but wind can too. A better trigger can help or can mask the problem. I suppose in theory, with proper trigger pull you get the same results with a 10 pound trigger pull as you would with an 18 ounce pull.

Also, a two stage trigger may be of benefit. Taking up some slack now the rest when ready...

 

[JustG]

We had > 10 mph winds if I had to guess but I was shooting N NW. I did have a few that shot right on another target but the target posted was after I got zeroed in dead center....2nd shot center with the fresh target.

I did pull everything apart and build back. I'm hoping to take the rifle up north with me this weekend to do some long range shooting with my cousin, I may feel better being laying in the field where I can focus on what I'm doing.

I am a left handed shooter, would that target represent sideways pull?

 

[JustG]

I'm a big 1911 guy, and shoot them well. I'm hoping the flat blade on the timney I ordered will mimic the wicked trigger jobs.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

First, allowing the trigger finger to touch the stock as well as the trigger may impart some sideways deflection to the shot. It's called 'dragging wood' and is best avoided. Ideally the trigger finger should contact the rifle at the fingertip and first/palm-knuckle, and nowhere else.

Left/right handedness should not create this problem.

Next, wind can produce the horizontal dispersion depicted, assuming that it provides variable gusts during the shot string.

Also, removing and replacing the action in an unbedded stock can disturb the stock's relationship with the action. Typically it takes an indeterminate number of shots before the stock and action reacquire their ideal stable relationship. Until this happens, the zero can wander somewhat. Should this strongly appear to be the case, simply 'shoot through' the initial stages as the zero begins to settle down, then adjust your zero after it appears to be pretty much set in place.

Sometimes a more basic scope can have issues with sticky adjustments, where it can take several shoots before the adjustment takes full effect.

It is best to avoid introducing additional variables when attempting to troubleshoot an accuracy/consistency problem. Take your time, think things out, then make your alterations/adjustment one at a time. This will not only aid in troubleshooting, it will also expand your understanding of how and why things work.

Greg

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Well I had some flyers that were way out there on my first target. I just kinda looked through the scope and said wtf.

I did end up ordering a new timney trigger when I got back. Maybe its just an inconsistent trigger?

Inconsistent cheek weld or a parallax issue, or both with that horizontal stringing.
What's the pull weight on your trigger?
LG

 

[JustG]

Greg, thank you for the encouragement. Being 6'3" I do have some comfort issues shooting from my local range bench, I really had to fight for a comfortable cheek weld. This weekend I will spend some alone time in the field and see what happens

Lumpy, I am not sure what the trigger is set at. I wanted to build a precision rifle and then learn to shoot it so I have not all the appropriate tools. I buy them as needed. Is there a way I can measure with something I have around the house/shop? I do have the timney 517 coming Thursday preset to 2lbs

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it!

View attachment 37372

 

[Lumpy Grits]

A trigger pull scale is a must have for any serious shooter IMO.
Find a 3 lb weight(verify on a scale). Clear the rifle and the use a coat hanger attached to this weight, with the muzzle up. See if the trigger 'trips' with the weight hang'n on the 'pedal'. If it doesn't 'trip'-WAY to heavy in pull weight.
Still say your biggest deal is cheek weld---
Are you sure your scope's parallax is set for the distance your shooting??
LG

 

[Lumpy Grits]

A trigger pull scale is a must have for any serious shooter IMO.
Find a 3 lb weight(verify on a scale). Clear the rifle and the use a coat hanger attached to this weight, with the muzzle up. See if the trigger 'trips' with the weight hang'n on the 'pedal'. If it doesn't 'trip'-WAY to heavy in pull weight.
Still say your biggest deal is cheek weld---
Are you sure your scope's parallax is set for the distance your shooting??
Your attachment is NFG--
LG

 

[JustG]

NFG?

I'm not worried about the trigger too much since I'm getting the new one.

I was under the assumption to avoid the parallax setting and just give a quick up and down with the head to set parallax?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

NFG=No Fuk'n Good....LOL
With the new trig.-You might well be fix'n somedangthing that ain't even 'broke'.
That new trigger cost allot more that a trigger pull scale would--
Trigger Pull Gauges & Weights | Measuring Tools at Brownells
WHY, would you want to "to avoid the parallax setting"??????
LG

 

[JustG]

I've read that the xmark triggers are inconsistent on the internet so it must be true. Plus with the remington recall...just get it done cause I sure as hell ain't sending it to them

I guess I need to start understanding parallax.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

My old style adjustable Remmy trigger trips at 2lbs pull, all day long.
Google is your friend-LOL
Parallax in Rifle Scopes

What exactly is parallax anyway? - The Optics Talk Forums

Do you still have your OEM stock for your rifle?
If you do-How did it shoot with it?
LG

 

[JustG]

I stuck a b&c on there a couple years ago but never formally took the rifle out to shoot it, so I cannot really say.

I have hot dogs for fingers so I'm hoping even just the flat trigger will feel better

 

[JustG]

Thank you for the links, I'll have the girlfriend drive to the tigers ball game while I read!

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Thank you for the links, I'll have the girlfriend drive to the tigers ball game while I read!

Read'n while in a move'n car makes me sick, PDQ-LOL.
Have fun,
LG

 

[JustG]

Tore the rifle apart, put new timney 517 in at 2.5#. Shot much better

4 groups of 5. Is this respectable for 100yds?

 

[JustG]

A lot of shots, I caught myself not positioning my body and hands correctly. I suppose those groups will shrink up after some more time behind the rifle

 

[JustG]

My first group was center, second was 6 spot, third 9 and last was 3....why would the groups have been opening up?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Flinch, and your horizontal spread is inconsistent cheek placement.
What size are those squares on the target?
Is your parallax set for 100yds?
What did you torque the action screws to?
LG

 

[JustG]

Action screws are 65. They are 1" squares. Parallax was set at 100.

Still need to work on positioning huh

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Beside the 100 yd setting. Did you confirm the lack of parallax??
Don't trust the marked settings-They just get you close.
What scope and power was it set on?
How much time between groups? Air temp was what?
How was the rifle rested for shooting? Bipod-Bags??
What ammo?
LG

 

[JustG]

There was no parallax. Vortex pst 6-24.....I had it at max power. Mirage was no too bad. I'd say 10 min in between groups, a warm 65 degrees. Atlas bipod and a rear bag.

Ammo 168 grain hornady tap

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Back the power off to 15. Use the higher power for read'n mirage etc.
Try that.
Can you find any Fed. match 168/175??
LG

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

I've read that the xmark triggers are inconsistent on the internet so it must be true. Plus with the remington recall...just get it done cause I sure as hell ain't sending it to them

I guess I need to start understanding parallax.

i have the xmark gen 1 in mine, 1.5lbs consistantly measured on a basic wheeler gauge and a digital one. just spent time adjusting the screws once the glue was removed, and doused it with break free. no creep, just a plain jane factory trigger - no accidental discharges yet.

originally was going to replace it or put a spring kit in it, figured it shoots sub moa out to 425 (my longest local range) so i can put the 100.00 - 200.00 toward reloading components instead. perhaps mine is the one in a million, but i'm not planning on replacing it, as there is no need to.

Parallax in Rifle Scopes

What exactly is parallax anyway? - The Optics Talk Forums

there was a great post on parallax here somewhere, i think it was by LL himself, but i can't seem to locate it.


as mentioned before, trigger squeeze directly rearward, cheek weld, gripping pressure, follow through, breathing, making sure your shouldering it the same, not flinching - all done properly can produce good results with the worst of triggers installed.

i think it's your cheek weld / eye alignment with the optic. equipment seems to be good, it just small rough edges in form that can be corrected. i've found for me "kissing" the stock in the same manner just like using a kisser button on archery equipment has really got me more consistant.

try 5 white pages, 5 1" spots 1 shot per page. scope on 10 or 12X. concentrate on trigger squeeze directly rearward, cheek weld, gripping pressure, follow through, breathing, not flinching.

or just 5 blank printer papers, no spots, aim center on the first round, then try to hit that hole with the next 5 on each paper.

stack the papers at the end of session, betchya see most of the hits clover leafing within 1" of each other.

 

[JustG]

Lumpy, I don't think so. Where could I look?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Try here--
200 round case - 308 Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain BTHP Ammo GM308M | SGAmmo.com

TP/I had the older remmy 700 trigger and it would NOT maintain any setting till I soaked it in solvent overnight and blew the crud out. Been GTG for many years now.

LG

 

[Angmo]

Tore the rifle apart, put new timney 517 in at 2.5#. Shot much better

4 groups of 5. Is this respectable for 100yds?

View attachment 38347

Looks like inconsistent trigger pull as groups still have a horizontal spread. Slight trigger jerking might do this. Also follow through. Slowly squeeze the trigger through the shot and recoil. Do not jerk your head up to "see the shot". As they say, --"Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast." -- Focus on smooth... Don't move for one second after the shot, then look at the target. Do everything in slow motion. Just slow everything down so you can feel everything you're doing. Zen like approach if you will. Have a fine sense of what you are doing with each shot. Never hurry. Relax. At 100, the same hole is the goal, not a ragged one. You can do this if you slow down your shooting process.

 

[JustG]

That is one part I haven't been paying attention to, after I squeeze the trigger.

 

[Angmo]

Easy on the trigger and pull straight back. Like the 1911, a push slightly sideways will push your shots over.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

I've read that the xmark triggers are inconsistent on the internet so it must be true. Plus with the remington recall...just get it done cause I sure as hell ain't sending it to them

I guess I need to start understanding parallax.

Stupid question. Is there any play in your bipod? Had a bud with a TRG that shot like crap until he ditched the Sako bipod.

 

[JustG]

Yes. Easy to load/pan/tilt...love it

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Your groups indicate error. That's to say, there is measureable distance between point of aim and point of impact. Since you could have a multitude of problems it may not be possible to discern all causes of error. Certainly, jerking the trigger could be a cause of error; but, there are other possibilities for horizontal grouping. Shooting from the left shoulder some causes of error could be:

1. High left shoulder
2. High vertical position
3. Varying head pressure
4. Movement of the left elbow
5. No stability of position
6. Change in sight picture
7. Failure to maintain proper sight alignment

Since shot misplacement can be caused by a multitude of errors, instead of attempting to find out what you are doing wrong, just concentrate on what it is that you need to accomplish, i.e. making all aspects of the position, trigger control and sight alignment consistent.

 

[JustG]

Could it be possible part of the problem is that I'm a left handed shooter with dominate right eye?

Thank you sterling

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Could it be possible part of the problem is that I'm a left handed shooter with dominate right eye?

Thank you sterling

Yes, you should try shooting from the right shoulder. You will have less eye strain. It will only take a few minutes to gain muscle memory for the new position.

 

[JustG]

I will give it a shot but I cannot do anything with my right hand without looking like a moron. Will try this weekend.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Yes. Easy to load/pan/tilt...love it

My point is the Sako had so much play (rattled when he carried it) that he couldn't control it. Put a Harris on and it shot great. ;-)

My son is left eye dom. and won't shoot left hand. Had to put tape over the left lens to make things work when he was young.

 

[Angmo]

To keep things simple, make one change/improvement at a time. If you make several changes at once, you'll never know what fixed what. So one thing at a time. Have patience. Eyes on details of what you're doing.

Do you have a coach or experienced shooter or trainer at the range. They can help too. Just like this forum, don't suffer in silence.

 

[Angmo]

Quoting "Position Rifle Shooting" Bill Pullum and Frank Hanenkrat... Page 22:

The hidden, unobservable ability to concentrate is one of the most important "secrets" of the champion shooter.
.
.
.
Half of the book is soft skills. Stuff between your ears. The other half are hard skills - rifle, positions etc... So inferred from the book having not met you, there is a 50:50 chance of mental focus needs or position related issues.

Using a tripod, try getting into position, then nudge forward on the tripod. The slight forward pressure on the tripod will help with bounce and more consistent shooting. Again, one change at a time.

Everyone including me tends to focus on gear, accessories, ammo etc... that's less than half the items to consider. Important, yes, but there's more.

Shooting-wise. Make sure your head is always upright. It will help minimize sway while standing or kneeling. Prone position is the most stable shooting position. The details of the prone differ from person to person based on your own body. It needs to give you a natural point of aim. Not a natural area of aim... The rifle should not move in prone.

Generally for prone:

-Your back muscles should be completely relaxed
-Spine should not be twisted
-Head between 5-15 degrees to the right of the target.
-Left leg (for righties) parallel to the spine, toe pointed in. (Out is uncomfortable and puts too much weight on the left elbow.
-Right leg 45 degrees from spine, knee bend lower leg parallel to spine
...left arm, spotting scope location, butt of rifle, right arm ( 2 jobs, support your weight and support the hand that supports the trigger finger. Tight or loose grip as you like. Needs to support proper and consistent trigger pull with the grip. Changes in hand pressure position might affect muzzle jump. Your right hand does not guide the rifle (for righties).

Consistent placement of the stock in the shoulder is the most difficult to repeat element (Along with functions of the right arm and hand).

Lots more details this is just so you get a feel of some of your roles and responsibilities...

Just so you know, IMHO.. a new trigger should have been near the end of the list.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Could it be possible part of the problem is that I'm a left handed shooter with dominate right eye?

Thank you sterling

Highly doubtful, there are a lot of us who are cross eye dominant that do not have this issue with scoped rifles. I am right handed but left eye dominant, it's a non-issue for me and others I work with. If the trigger breaks cleanly and consistently, then I am willing to bet it is the guy behind the rifle pulling the trigger. Being smooth on that trigger with a steady position is key.

I see that your results are better with the new trigger, which to me tells me that you were not consistently pulling the stock trigger to the rear straight or smoothly. Keep working on the trigger press and the groups will likely keep shrinking.

 

[Angmo]

I mentioned a bit of this in another thread.

I shot well until I went to a small bore rifle. EVERYTHING I thought I was doing well with center-fire rifles showed up as major defects in small bore.

Hold, heart-beats, hand and trigger control errors were all magnified in small bore. Even muzzle jump has a greater effect in small bore than center-fire. The reason is due to slower barrel time of small bore. I really learned about proper position, trigger control and follow through with small bore.

I focused a lot on follow through and that alone helped me adjust my position to get consistent shots. This is reflected in improved center fire performance.