Do I need a shotgun?
- Thread starter pmclaine
- Start date
I've been shooting shotguns since the '60s, Competing in A class sporting clays in the 90's. During one of those competition years I shot close to 25,000 rounds. Reloading became a way of life!
What have I learned about shotguns? In all gauges rounds travel at approximately the same speed. The difference is in the payload. The bigger the gauge the more pellets, with a larger spread, and inside the center pattern kill zone, more pellets. I shot a 30-inch barreled over and under for all of my competition work, and all the way down to 26-inches for superlight upland hunting quail guns. My favorite is the 28-inch barrel 28 gauge, but that a story for another time. Boy does it hit hard. One thing to keep in mind is that the smaller the gauge the tighter the pattern for a given distance. This is why the 28 gauge, when used by experienced shooters pulverizes clay targets. The trade off is the size of the pattern.
In my very well studied opinion the best defensive gauge is the 20. The 20 gauge shotguns are lighter, more maneuverable, have less recoil and basically have the same punch per shot size as a 12 gauge at defensive ranges. How come you ask? Tighter pattern - go back anf read the first paragraph. Take the best defensive round. That would be the #4 buckshot. Do your own research if you don't believe that. Here's a website that tells some (not all) of that story:
Cheap #4 buck ammo for sale at wholesale prices. Buy your #4 buck ammunition in bulk here at Ammo.com. Live inventory + same day shipping!
ammo.com
Every 20 gauge shot has 20, .24 caliber rounds in each shell traveling at 1200 FPS. The equivalent of ~ 1500 foot/pounds of energy. In comparison the 12 gauge carries 24 pellets - not a big difference. That fire power beats any sub machine by any measure. I have actually tested the pattern spread of the #4 Buck 20 gauge at 7 yards (21 feet) in both improved and modified cylinders. The Improved cylinder patterned at ~ 9 inches - chest width. The modified cylinder is a different story. It patterned at a very tight 6 inches. That is tight and a very devastating shot pattern.
So, this is why the 20 gauge is my goto defensive shotgun, and I have all different gauges at my disposal....
What have I learned about shotguns? In all gauges rounds travel at approximately the same speed. The difference is in the payload. The bigger the gauge the more pellets, with a larger spread, and inside the center pattern kill zone, more pellets. I shot a 30-inch barreled over and under for all of my competition work, and all the way down to 26-inches for superlight upland hunting quail guns. My favorite is the 28-inch barrel 28 gauge, but that a story for another time. Boy does it hit hard. One thing to keep in mind is that the smaller the gauge the tighter the pattern for a given distance. This is why the 28 gauge, when used by experienced shooters pulverizes clay targets. The trade off is the size of the pattern.
In my very well studied opinion the best defensive gauge is the 20. The 20 gauge shotguns are lighter, more maneuverable, have less recoil and basically have the same punch per shot size as a 12 gauge at defensive ranges. How come you ask? Tighter pattern - go back anf read the first paragraph. Take the best defensive round. That would be the #4 buckshot. Do your own research if you don't believe that. Here's a website that tells some (not all) of that story:
#4 Buckshot Ammo at Ammo.com: #4 Buckshot Explained
Cheap #4 buck ammo for sale at wholesale prices. Buy your #4 buck ammunition in bulk here at Ammo.com. Live inventory + same day shipping!
Every 20 gauge shot has 20, .24 caliber rounds in each shell traveling at 1200 FPS. The equivalent of ~ 1500 foot/pounds of energy. In comparison the 12 gauge carries 24 pellets - not a big difference. That fire power beats any sub machine by any measure. I have actually tested the pattern spread of the #4 Buck 20 gauge at 7 yards (21 feet) in both improved and modified cylinders. The Improved cylinder patterned at ~ 9 inches - chest width. The modified cylinder is a different story. It patterned at a very tight 6 inches. That is tight and a very devastating shot pattern.
So, this is why the 20 gauge is my goto defensive shotgun, and I have all different gauges at my disposal....
Refreshing read. I've been a fan of #4 buck for many yearsI've been shooting shotguns since the '60s, Competing in A class sporting clays in the 90's. During one of those competition years I shot close to 25,000 rounds. Reloading became a way of life!
What have I learned about shotguns? In all gauges rounds travel at approximately the same speed. The difference is in the payload. The bigger the gauge the more pellets, with a larger spread, and inside the center pattern kill zone, more pellets. I shot a 30-inch barreled over and under for all of my competition work, and all the way down to 26-inches for superlight upland hunting quail guns. My favorite is the 28-inch barrel 28 gauge, but that a story for another time. Boy does it hit hard. One thing to keep in mind is that the smaller the gauge the tighter the pattern for a given distance. This is why the 28 gauge, when used by experienced shooters pulverizes clay targets. The trade off is the size of the pattern.
In my very well studied opinion the best defensive gauge is the 20. The 20 gauge shotguns are lighter, more maneuverable, have less recoil and basically have the same punch per shot size as a 12 gauge at defensive ranges. How come you ask? Tighter pattern - go back anf read the first paragraph. Take the best defensive round. That would be the #4 buckshot. Do your own research if you don't believe that. Here's a website that tells some (not all) of that story:
#4 Buckshot Ammo at Ammo.com: #4 Buckshot Explained
Cheap #4 buck ammo for sale at wholesale prices. Buy your #4 buck ammunition in bulk here at Ammo.com. Live inventory + same day shipping!
ammo.com
Every 20 gauge shot has 20, .24 caliber rounds in each shell traveling at 1200 FPS. The equivalent of ~ 1500 foot/pounds of energy. In comparison the 12 gauge carries 24 pellets - not a big difference. That fire power beats any sub machine by any measure. I have actually tested the pattern spread of the #4 Buck 20 gauge at 7 yards (21 feet) in both improved and modified cylinders. The Improved cylinder patterned at ~ 9 inches - chest width. The modified cylinder is a different story. It patterned at a very tight 6 inches. That is tight and a very devastating shot pattern.
So, this is why the 20 gauge is my goto defensive shotgun, and I have all different gauges at my disposal....
Do it right, do it once...
Worth the Kindle price x 1000!
Linseed Oil Finish: The simple, fast way to a hand rubbed oil finish
And once you have an oil finish never ever never put gun oil on it, or worse, a silicone rag, the ones used to protect metal. Wax is the way to go and he wax to use is this one - museums use it:
Renaissance Wax Polish
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Because of differences in how 8 vs 9 pellets are stacked into the case, the 9 pellet is more likely to throw a flier.
9 pellet also has more recoil.
Faster follow up shots plus less recoil is where I'm at.
I've been shooting shotguns since the '60s, Competing in A class sporting clays in the 90's. During one of those competition years I shot close to 25,000 rounds. Reloading became a way of life!
What have I learned about shotguns? In all gauges rounds travel at approximately the same speed. The difference is in the payload. The bigger the gauge the more pellets, with a larger spread, and inside the center pattern kill zone, more pellets. I shot a 30-inch barreled over and under for all of my competition work, and all the way down to 26-inches for superlight upland hunting quail guns. My favorite is the 28-inch barrel 28 gauge, but that a story for another time. Boy does it hit hard. One thing to keep in mind is that the smaller the gauge the tighter the pattern for a given distance. This is why the 28 gauge, when used by experienced shooters pulverizes clay targets. The trade off is the size of the pattern.
In my very well studied opinion the best defensive gauge is the 20. The 20 gauge shotguns are lighter, more maneuverable, have less recoil and basically have the same punch per shot size as a 12 gauge at defensive ranges. How come you ask? Tighter pattern - go back anf read the first paragraph. Take the best defensive round. That would be the #4 buckshot. Do your own research if you don't believe that. Here's a website that tells some (not all) of that story:
#4 Buckshot Ammo at Ammo.com: #4 Buckshot Explained
Cheap #4 buck ammo for sale at wholesale prices. Buy your #4 buck ammunition in bulk here at Ammo.com. Live inventory + same day shipping!
ammo.com
Every 20 gauge shot has 20, .24 caliber rounds in each shell traveling at 1200 FPS. The equivalent of ~ 1500 foot/pounds of energy. In comparison the 12 gauge carries 24 pellets - not a big difference. That fire power beats any sub machine by any measure. I have actually tested the pattern spread of the #4 Buck 20 gauge at 7 yards (21 feet) in both improved and modified cylinders. The Improved cylinder patterned at ~ 9 inches - chest width. The modified cylinder is a different story. It patterned at a very tight 6 inches. That is tight and a very devastating shot pattern.
So, this is why the 20 gauge is my goto defensive shotgun, and I have all different gauges at my disposal....
Have you had any experience with the .410 and tungsten shot?
I'm hearing stories of guys using tight chokes and hunting Turkey at 40+ yards.
Its getting patterns at that range that a 12 Gauge was getting a decade ago, or so I'm hearing.
I do not have hands on experience with those loads. That said, I am aware of them and the theory behind the claims.
Basically, Shotgun shell manufacturers have been adopting a new tungsten alloy. It is not standard tungsten shot as we know it. This new alloy is much denser, as in heavier and harder pellets, and is labeled as TSS - Tungsten Super Shot. The theory is that with TSS being so dense (56% denser than steel by volume) you can get the same penetration at distance as larger lead shot using smaller shot instead. I believe the ratio in shot size makes TSS #9 shot have the density to penetrate a turkey at distance in the same way as standard #7 1/2 lead shot.
So the implication is that you can load a .410 with 291 pellets of TSS #9 shot, the equivalent number of pellets as 1 ounce of #7 lead shot (not #7.5) and still get the penetration needed for hunting turkeys.
The game changer for the .410 is that with more pellets in the air you now have a .410 shell that patterns at distance with fewer turkey head size holes in it. So, all of a sudden the .410 becomes a turkey hunting gun (In some states #9 shot is not legal for hunting turkey though).
The downside is the cost of TSS shells. It is very high, ranging up to ~$5.00 a round!
As I mentioned at the outset I have no hands on experience with these shells. I am a sort of trust but verify first kind of guy so I wouldn't just trot out to a turkey hunt with one of them .410s TSSs until I tested those claims,
One critical last point: A .410 TSS shell has no distance nor pattern advantage whatsoever over any of the other larger gauge shotguns using larger standard shot. SST shot just makes it theoretically possible for the .410 to play with the others.
First firing....
10 rounds, 00 buck 9 pellet at 10 yards. 90 holes and some wad damage......
I think it works just fine.
Three rounds of 20 gauge #4 buck at 7 yards (21 feet) - 26 inch barrel. Full size silhouette. Only one round to the head (mine). There were two rounds shot at center mass because a friend wanted to try it. He went low... Head shot was a modified cylinder shot. Chest was improved cylinder. I'm sold on #4 on a 20 gauge - .24 caliber @ 1200 FPS - 21 pellets!
Federal offered the #4 with flight control wad. I have half a case left. I really wish they would bring that back.
Wow that redo came out just excellent! Very 1960s Vietnam period look. Congrats!First firing....
10 rounds, 00 buck 9 pellet at 10 yards. 90 holes and some wad damage......
I think it works just fine.
Now you have me looking at doing the same project with a 20 gauge!
I'm am not a Gunny just as you are not a Private.
No idea regards the sights.
On the original Mk1 they used rifle sights but in just about every picture they seem to be broken or removed.
If they were on there I'd want them center mass at what 20 yards?
No idea regards the sights.
On the original Mk1 they used rifle sights but in just about every picture they seem to be broken or removed.
If they were on there I'd want them center mass at what 20 yards?
Just surpassed my max bid....
I was alerted to this by a Hide member.....you people are fantastic you know that!
I was alerted to this by a Hide member.....you people are fantastic you know that!
If I had of won I would have sent you that stock to anal-ize it.
I only wanted that bayonet mount.
Damn, I would have loved to see that stock. It looked like intentional texturing on the pump and pistol grip. Almost like sand embedded in epoxy.
I was thinking it had been near heat and bubbled or someone was using that spray on tacky shit high power shooters put on the support hand glove and the wrist of their rifle stock.
And just like that a necro thread became relevant again……
Yes, yes I did.
Now I have to get in touch with Steve at GunBlack in New York and hope he has good access to gunsmithing skills which I am confident they do.
He will be getting this 31 “ barrel….
Intent will be….
1. Unscrew front sight from barrel
2. Remove “bead sight” on bayonet adapter
3. Drill/tap bayonet adapter for rifle sight
4. Cut barrel to USMC Mk I length
5. Re park barrel
Hope he can keep the adapter it’s NIB finish. Should be able to.
31 inch barrel is a full choke, will probably be open when cut.
Fly in the ointment will be if barrel diameter is too big for adapter when cut.
From you fine people I need to know…
1. Some datum point and measurement to locate the blade sight on the adapter. Guessing from front edge of adapter to front of sight would be good.
2. Some datum point to locate exact line to cut barrel. If some good person wanted to remove their Mk I barrel and take a picture of a datum reference to measure from to the finished muzzle length the picture will be worth 1000 words.
@m1marty I need your knowledge.
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$1000? Maybe I will make a couple more.
In an amazing coincidence of dates last year this exact day I bid $1500 on a bubba shotgun that had a legit adapter solely intending to use that adapter and get whatever scrap value I could for the unwanted shotty.
I would have shit had I won because $1500 would have hurt. It was a grudge bid I tossed in with a minute left on the auction and about a few more auto bids immediately followed. I pretty much just wanted to be a dick and drive the price up.
I think that $300 dollar shotty sold for $2000 because of the adapter.
I actually think $1k was a deal unless I am unaware of a stockpile of these that has been found.
And I think you are correct that there would be a market for your clone.
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Nice score.
here’s another version with the recess for a heat shield that wasn’t adopted. In regards to not fitting over the barrel, the one pictured is/was particularly tight. I think you’d want to use a lathe to get the OD down, modify the replaceable part.
This other info pointed out to me is the difference in factory mag swivels early vs late? The ones marked with an “x” vs not. The distances between the factory mag extension and barrel are different.
here’s another version with the recess for a heat shield that wasn’t adopted. In regards to not fitting over the barrel, the one pictured is/was particularly tight. I think you’d want to use a lathe to get the OD down, modify the replaceable part.
This other info pointed out to me is the difference in factory mag swivels early vs late? The ones marked with an “x” vs not. The distances between the factory mag extension and barrel are different.
Pretty sure my current mag extension support is marked "X".
The receiver should be early 70's if that determines anything with barrel/magazine separation.
Need to get some measurements to determine barrel length from some datum point I can use to mark it as it sits now.
Also need some measurements to locate the front sight on the bayonet adapter.
The receiver should be early 70's if that determines anything with barrel/magazine separation.
Need to get some measurements to determine barrel length from some datum point I can use to mark it as it sits now.
Also need some measurements to locate the front sight on the bayonet adapter.
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That packaging is as cool as the kit! Good taste in edc knife, I still carry the prior generation Mel Pardue even though the pocket clip has come off.
The seller even put the old tape that sealed the box back in the box........I'm guessing he is one of us.
I think I got a fantástico deal.
Trying to figure barrel length to have my MKI barrel cut at
I measured the existing barrel and from muzzle to breech end minus the tail is 20-1/8. Seems legit for what I think is a 20” police barrel, smooth bore with rifle sights.
If I measure out my long barrel I need to cut at 21 inches this is the look..
Seems about right.
Anyone have any means for me to get this perfect please advise.
I think when I send the barrel out to get cut I may also get a screw in choke system installed. I’d like to run a Modified choke in it. Won’t be legit but nothings legit anyway. Might as well be functional.
I measured the existing barrel and from muzzle to breech end minus the tail is 20-1/8. Seems legit for what I think is a 20” police barrel, smooth bore with rifle sights.
If I measure out my long barrel I need to cut at 21 inches this is the look..
Seems about right.
Anyone have any means for me to get this perfect please advise.
I think when I send the barrel out to get cut I may also get a screw in choke system installed. I’d like to run a Modified choke in it. Won’t be legit but nothings legit anyway. Might as well be functional.
PS…..
Anyone that has an adapter with a rifle sight I need to know how far back from the edge of the adapter it sits and I need to know if the sight base has been trimmed so as not to have the sight sit too high on the adapter for the rear to mate with.
Anyone that has an adapter with a rifle sight I need to know how far back from the edge of the adapter it sits and I need to know if the sight base has been trimmed so as not to have the sight sit too high on the adapter for the rear to mate with.
PPS….
I hope to have GunBlack do the barrel modifications and installation of the front sight on the bayonet adapter.
If I have to get a second company involved with the screw in chokes anyone have any suggestions?
I hope to have GunBlack do the barrel modifications and installation of the front sight on the bayonet adapter.
If I have to get a second company involved with the screw in chokes anyone have any suggestions?
Briley in Houston can thread anything to any thread system you want. Midwest gun works can too, might be a little cheaper. Those two are the big shotgun folks out there
I was looking at a Briley earlier. Reasonable pricing and you get to choose three chokes. Probably the way I will go.
I’d probably get -
Skeet, because shooting skeet with a bayonet would be awesome.
Modified - the USMC choice for MKI to use with 00 and slug.
Full - because I’d probably not use much slug in this thing and maybe I want anything that comes out of the choke to be a tight five fingered death punch.
Briley I would surely trust.
I had Carlsons do one for me a few years ago, but when I inquired last fall, they didn’t have a gunsmith at the time.
Sissies.
Want to keep 5-7 pellets on a paper plate at 55-60 yards, start with a lot of them!
And the best part, even during the worst part of the ammo shortages, they were always in stock.
I had Carlsons do one for me a few years ago, but when I inquired last fall, they didn’t have a gunsmith at the time.
Sissies.
Want to keep 5-7 pellets on a paper plate at 55-60 yards, start with a lot of them!
And the best part, even during the worst part of the ammo shortages, they were always in stock.
If it's me, I skip the skeet, do an IC instead. More better for 5 stand, and sporting clays
Those won’t let my 2-3/4 chamber to allow the bolt to lock.Briley I would surely trust.
I had Carlsons do one for me a few years ago, but when I inquired last fall, they didn’t have a gunsmith at the time.
Sissies.
View attachment 8131522
Want to keep 5-7 pellets on a paper plate at 55-60 yards, start with a lot of them!
And the best part, even during the worst part of the ammo shortages, they were always in stock.
You know I’ll never do either.
Least used gun in the safe but one of the coolest.
If I had been smart I would have done this to a twenty gauge and handed to my wife in times of duress and said “Just point it and hope they run into the pointy thing”
She might actually be a help than.
Briley I would surely trust.
I had Carlsons do one for me a few years ago, but when I inquired last fall, they didn’t have a gunsmith at the time.
Sissies.
View attachment 8131522
Want to keep 5-7 pellets on a paper plate at 55-60 yards, start with a lot of them!
And the best part, even during the worst part of the ammo shortages, they were always in stock.
Pretty sure that shotgun should not be shot with 3.5" shells . Chamber is 2 3/4, I believe
Briley I would surely trust.
I had Carlsons do one for me a few years ago, but when I inquired last fall, they didn’t have a gunsmith at the time.
Sissies.
View attachment 8131522
Want to keep 5-7 pellets on a paper plate at 55-60 yards, start with a lot of them!
And the best part, even during the worst part of the ammo shortages, they were always in stock.
I'm a big fan of #4 buck. 24 pellets .24" diameter. Yeah, that's what I want coming out the business end
I wasn't suggesting them for your 870. lol
The prices of that mount stuns me. Didn't a bunch of those guns hit the market no too many years ago and go "relatively cheap"? (a good deal less than the mount alone) Memory is foggy. Maybe National Guard or prison guns? (Or ARNG guns that were given to a prison system then later sold?)
The prices of that mount stuns me. Didn't a bunch of those guns hit the market no too many years ago and go "relatively cheap"? (a good deal less than the mount alone) Memory is foggy. Maybe National Guard or prison guns? (Or ARNG guns that were given to a prison system then later sold?)
