Do I really have this much to learn

[bobtodrick]

So...have been precision shooting rimfire for about 5 years now. Been through a number of guns, right now have a heavy barrel Savage in .22WMR that is a consistent 1" at 100m.
Stepped up this year to centerfire.
Bought myself two guns...a Sharps in 45-70, just 'cause I've watched Quigley Down Under too many times, the other a Mossberg Night-train in .308 with a thin barrel. Harris bi-pod and one of the new Nikon tactical 4-16 scopes.
I'm used to going out with the rimfire and putting together a string of 5 shot groups on quick succession...say 50 shots in an hour.
With the .308 I'll get 4 or 5 three shot groups that are all around 1moa...and then the groups start to expand...to 2" or a little more. And the barrel is uncomfortably warm to the touch.
So...is is normal?
Do I have that much to learn?
I know it seems like a stupid basic question...

 

[BearNaked]

the reason your groups are opening up are because the barrel is getting hot. i would do about 10 shots and then let it cool down.

a tip for quicker cool down, one of the guys i shot with will bring an ice chest with towels in it and put that on his barrel for a few mins to cool it down faster so you are not out there all day long.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Normal, typical? I'd say yes due to a thinner factory barrel that may have very common factory barrel stress relief issues.

I'd also say there is no cause for alarm, and suggest paying more heed to limiting barrel heating, and to learning how the rifle shoots during the heating cycle. Even if the POI walks or the group opens up; as long as it does this consistently, then you can structure your accuracy approach around using the known performance effectively, and curtailing efforts once the barrel's heat/accuracy threshold has been crossed.

Barrel heat is a measurable, numerically understandable factor. Don't guess, measure it and know. Get one of these inexpensive Digital Laser Infrared Thermometer Temperature Guns and use it until you get a firm understanding of how and why your barrel heats. You can soon see a relationship develop between what you read on the thermometer, and what you see on the target.

There is always something more to learn, but it's not anything near being insurmountable as long as one pays attention to what's going on, and gives it some critical thought. I currently recommend Ryan Cleckner's book on precision and long range. It's precisely the book I would write if I would get off my aging butt more these days, and now that he's done his, all I could accomplish would be a redundancy. Everything I have read in his book (several times) is right on the money. It's the same book I've given to my Granddaughter and some close friends.

Your question is common, and constitutes the beginning of wisdom. One can only pour wisdom into a mind for as long as it's an open one.

Greg

 

[bobtodrick]

Thanks guys. I didn't think it could be a defect in the barrel...it's too predictable. Have been out three or four time testing different ammo, and it's been the same every time...four or five great groups (for me) and then it starts to open up and wander a bit high and to the left. But as you say Greg it seems to be predictable...I do feel I could compensate to some degree and maintain a decent accuracy.
Next time I'll take one of my rimfires and spend a 1/2 hour plinking after shooting a few groups.
Makes my head spin reading here and realizing what I'm in for when I start to take it out further

 

[lash]

You are on the right track. Greg is spot on. I once was intimidated by all of the knowledge necessary to do well in this sport. That was years ago, I trusted my study and instincts, took a class, and all that is well behind me.

Don't get me wrong, there is always something to learn in this sport if you have the interest, but one day you might find yourself cleaning a KYL rack at 1000 yards and thinking about the time when this was intimidating.

 

[TripleBull]

I think one of the best aspects of shooting is that it is deep and wide with respect to knowledge. It's like an infinite onion.

 

[SubOptimal]

Even with my heavy barrel rifles, I keep a pace to my shots. I'm on a square range and nobody is shooting back at me, nor are any animals running away cause I missed my first shot.
5 shots in 2 minutes is a comfortable pace for me and my gun. My range runs 15 minutes hot/15 minutes cold so I can easly get 15 shots off in that time and, depending if I'm shooting for groups or dot drills, I'm probably gonna want to go look at or change a target at that point anyway. The 15 minutes of down time pretty much allows my barrel to reach a reasonable equilibrium temperature over the course of fire. I can grab a cold drink or even step off the line and have a smoke should I want to mess my heart rate up.
At 100 yards, I can see bullet holes through my scope so there is no real need to change targets that often. I merely pick a new POA and continue to shoot. I have a 30x spotting scope mounted on a tripod behind the safe line at the range so i can evaluate targets that way as well. With a shoot and see target, even the 243 stuff can be seen at 200 yards. If shooting further, I usually am on steel and have a buddy with me at an adjacent firing point. We take turns spotting for each other and the rifles never really heat up.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

All firearms have accuracy limits, and all firearms have personalities. The trick is in learning how to spot the honeys and the bummers in the mix. The differences will be in the area of consistency.

If it does what it does with some consistency, you have the basis for accuracy. If it won't, there's something wrong, and you won't get accuracy until you either fix it, or move on. In theory, all problems can be fixed, but in practice, we want to minimize the down time associated with such fixes, and it may be wiser to cut and run, concentrating on Keeping It Simple, Sweets.

At my age, there's a real constraint on getting out on the limb and indulging in complexity. I might have done well to recognize this when I was a lot younger, and you don't have to wait things out to my age to get that thought ingrained.

A favorite aphorism: "Be mindful of the man who has only one gun; he probably knows how to shoot it." Shoot the gun a lot, so its personality can meld with your own.

My shooting experience has been a journey to simplicity.

By all means master the details, but only afford them a smaller place in what you do. Knowing their place and the parts they play is good, but it all comes back to the basics.

Do the simple basics with consistent precision, and your recognition of the parts the details play will round out your understanding of how to cut directly to the chase, and git 'er done.

Do not jump down the rabbit hole and stay there. Come up for air, and soon. Then stay with your feet on the ground and your eye on that distant target.

The target is not visible from inside the rabbit hole.

Greg

 

[bobtodrick]

Appreciate your comment Greg.
I do think I have the consistency your talking about.
If I don't allow a lot of barrel cooling (I'm shooting 3 shot groups, then waiting about 5 minute), I'll get about 5 groups that are 1moa or better, then it opens to about 1.5-2moa. But as you say, it is consistent.
What I have been doing is arriving to the range, shooting four or five groups at 100m...than moving onto steel plates at the 200-300-400m distances (the limit of our range). Have no issue hitting the steel, and it doesn't bother me knowing that I may not be getting itsy-bitsy groups dead center. The steel rings and I am happy.
I guess I was expecting too much out of a hunting thin barrel...that like my rimfires I'd be able to shoot 50 rounds or so and not notice any accuracy change.

 

[bab029]

The target is not visible from inside the rabbit hole.

Greg

There's a lot of truth in a few words.

 

[SubOptimal]

Wisdom of the ages, or aged in this case.

 

[bobtodrick]

Well, after a couple of months I found my problem...and is came way out of left field.
So...yesterday was a typical day of late. Got to the range, touched off three shots at 100m...a little under an inch, bang in the middle of the target. Son #1 (16 yrs) did three shots...about an inch.
Son #2 (14 yrs)...ditto.
Then I did three more...three inches low and a good 3moa. Damn...the barrel doesn't feel too hot...the scope is all tight.
Let son #1 have a go...three shots dead centre. Now I'm beginning to thinks I suck
Son #2 tries...perfect.
I'm thinking..what can it be when I come to the realization that the only thing that changed is I had forgot my eyepro the first group and put them on for the second. They are the kind that do double duty as shooting glasses and goggles, so they have a thick frame that I have to really cock my head to get a clear sight picture through the scope without the frame of the glasses interfering.
Took the glasses off and bingo...under an inch, dead centre.
So I picked up a pair of Wiley X without frames this morning.
I've been fighting this for two months now, always thinking it was barrel heat...whoda thunk???